Dawlah Riddah: Alshabaab’s Takfeeri Undertones.

[Nur]

Akhi Xiin

 

Does the following Statement summarize your permanent position:

 

Xiinfaniin's Somali Leaders Exceptionalism Theory:

 

Xiinfaniin's theory states that Western Appointed Somali leaders known as the TFG, regardless of what they have done in the past, or are engaged in the present, remain intimately glued in the fold of Islam as long as they don't claim openly to have opted out of Islam by loudly saying DIINTA ISLAAMKA WAAN KA BAXNAY.

 

No action they commit, national sovereignty they cede to the enemy, alliance with proven opponents of Islam they commit to, or any utterance of contempt of Islam they broadcast in the media can warrant their apostasy from the Islamic fold, and for the sake of unity, all Somalis, regardless of their ideological persuasion must rally behind their western appointed leaders to make peace in Somalia in order to stop the indiscriminate artillery shelling and civilian slaughter of the frustrated African Union Mercenaries who are only responding to the resistance fighters attacks, and who are in Somalia to make peace based on a western vision for the country. If all Somalis rally behind the corrupt Clan based warlord-cum-Sufi Government, the west will be happy with us and peace will flourish in Somalia.?

 

 

Nur

[xiinfaniin]

^^No. That is not my position, Nur.

 

I am against wars waged perpetually against others fellow Muslims by an armed takfiiri group in the name of saving Somalia from western hegemony. I am also against hasty religious verdicts issued to sanction the spill of the blood of innocent Somalis in the name of jihad. I reject the notion that this war preserves the dignity and the religion of Somalis. I know it displaces them, sending them to foreign refugee camps. It prolongs their suffering. The wars you are defending, ya Nur, subjects once proud Somalis to humiliation.

 

It is a fitna war awoowe, not a jihad. Listen to Sheekh Umul if you get the time.

 

I am with the majority of Muslim scholars …and I intend to propagate their views on these boards.

 

Now respond to my previous statement about your stance ya Nur

[Nur]

ِAkhi Xiin

 

In this debate, I have provided the preliminary intellectual ( Caql) and religious ( Naql) grounds of what makes a group or an individual an apostate. My thesis was not meant to be exhaustive nor an official online prosecution of the TFG.

 

The second ingredient that is required to make a sound judgement of apostasy against the TFG by a competent judge, would be specific incidents, public statements or kufr actions that deem a group or a specific person an apostate(Takfeer al Mucayan), by a neutral( Witnesses who have no preconceived animosity nor bias against the TFG, which technically relieves me of this daunting responsibility due to my long history on these forums of disliking these clowns), witnesses who are just and responsible (CUDUUL)(Not a prosecution by the libelous news networks as in the case against the Somali resistance) that can incriminate or acquit the accused members of the TFG, who in Islam have the right to defend themselves or seek counsel, in an impartial(not favoring any side), transparent (Procedures are well known and observed by the public) and an open-to-the-public Sharia court of law.

 

 

Nur

[Positive]

I will come with my last two cents on this topic by first saying to Xiin:

 

Brother if what we need most now is peace then calling a group takfeeri won’t heal wounds. It is rather a drumbeat for war so that warriors can be marshaled into a battle field. Such an action leads to the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.

 

When one is trying to find a solution to an intricate problem as ours it is ideal that one should not alienat the opposing person/group but rather accommodate him/it both in action and in word.

 

Hence accommodating words and actions are expected from TFG and its sympathisers.

 

Besides the ongoing war in Somalia now has everything to do with power and positions. we the laymen have already understood that much now and it is not easy to sway us into other frame of mind. Marka culimo kitaabo isu soo gurata oo ay qolo qiil hesho arrintu kuma jirto ee farsamooyin kale ayey u baahan tahay!!

 

To Nur I say:

 

I have been looking up to you as our sheikh and thus expecting that you would always give us, in your level of understanding, impartial answers about any questions members of this forum ask you. But it is clear that your answers have not been fair when it comes to the political situation in Somalia and I commend you that you now have shown courage by saying that in your last contribution in this topic.

 

Of course you are aware that in the bigger picture such actions bring mistrust; It puts your credibility and the credibility of the culima in-line.

 

This is no time to become sentimental brother. In this war we are all losers in all aspect of our life. This is a crucial thought to keep in mind!

 

Now I will advice you both to speak about the solutions not the differences as you have been doing.

 

The Awakener2

[Nur]

Akhi al Kareem Positive

 

Allah SWT says in Quraan, "Icdiluu, huwa aqrabu littaqwaa" Be just, that is closer to TAQWA and in another instance, a Muslim must be a witness against himself/herself " Wa low calaa anfusikum".

 

I have followed the events in Somalia for a long time and I have formed a solid opinion on the TFG, which in itself disqualifies me from a formal judicial prosecution of the TFG.

 

If a Sharia court convenes on their case today, and I was invited as a jury in the case, I would have advised not to include me, or Xiin, for that matter, but a fresh audience who only judges the evidence and the Islamic Xukum on the accusation of Apostacy.

 

I have no doubt that to many readers, there is no doubt that the TFG are Kuffar, and to many, they have no doubt that they are not, and precisely, that is the role of an impartial Islamic Court of Sharia to reach a verdict by looking only into the evidence without emotions or bias.

 

Nur

[Positive]

Brother Nur,

 

 

You have have given an answer to the question of Xiin; a satisfactory one I may add.

 

It is the function of Sharia court to pass a judgement about cases for apostasy and it practically means that a Sharia Court has to hear the accusation of the apostasy and declare a verdict. Since we do not have ruling of Sharia Court which incriminates the TFG for apostasy or a group for Takfeer we can safely say that we are dealing with accusation (this last sentence is my opinion) .

 

The answer is good enough for me.

 

The Awakener2

[xiinfaniin]

I did not start this post to heal Somalia’s civil war wounds. I started it to shed light on the question of whether TFG is a dawlah riddah, from Islamic perspective. In a implicit sort of way, I also started this thread to invite the contributors of SOL’s Islamic page to clarify their stance on what I conceder the great fitnah of our time. As far as I am concern alshabaab is not an entity that is motivated by politics. This organization is a religious in nature, and its theological dispositions are in line with the takfeeri movements of the past. They don’t kill people because they are angry or have grudges them. They kill and engage in voilance because they believe they indeed have religious justifications for what they do…whether it’s suicide bombings, assassinations, or the all-out wars they engage in the midst of civilians. When I say they are takfiiri movement, I am not being emotional. It’s what I think they are. Their actions speak volumes and their attitude of we-are-the-only-mulsims is plainly there for all to see.

 

I too congratulate Nur (in his last post) for his courageous decision to disobey the commands of his heart by refraining from calling TFG a dawlah riddah, like the group he sympathizes does. I am not a fanatic supporter of the TFG. I have spoken at length what the TFG is: a legal fiction; a composition of warlord characters; a weak entity under the mercy of foreign powers. But I also said those characteristics are beside the point given where Somalia is today. We have to start somewhere, I insisted. It’s that somewhere, and common sense dictates that we should give it a chance.

 

What I think is impractical is the notion that espouses these wars are being waged to save Somalia from western hegemony, or to preserve our Islamic faith. That assertion flies in the face of the known facts, and glaring realities on the ground contradicts it. These wars invited more invasions, caused more displacements for innocent people, and continue to cause death and destruction in Somalia. Meanwhile, wherever there is an opportunity for peace and stability, Somalis and their faith not only survived but it also thrived and flourished, some times in distant lands and against hostile social and political pressures.

 

To conclude, TFG is not a dawladah riddah. Other political entities in Somalia are not kuffaar entity. The wars in Somalia are not jihadi wars. They are civil wars that killed more Muslims then kuffaars. The solution lies in dialogue and political settlements, not in endless violence and false pride.

[Positive]

Xiin,

 

You have given voice to many points I may agree with you.

 

But let me be sure, when you say: As far as I am concern alshabaab is not an entity that is motivated by politics. This organization is a religious in nature, and its theological dispositions are in line with the takfeeri movements of the past , you stop short here to call Alshabaab takfeeri entity. Is that right?

 

I mean is there a legal ruling you are aware of which declares Alshabaab as an entity outside of Islam and, in your opibion, is such a ruling necessary before one calls them takfeer?

 

The Awakener2

[Positive]

Previously posted by Xiin.

 

To conclude,

TFG is not a dawladah riddah. Other political entities in Somalia are not kuffaar entity.

The wars in Somalia are not jihadi wars. They are civil wars that killed more Muslims then kuffaars. The solution lies in dialogue and political settlements, not in endless violence and false pride.

sorry brother that I overlooked the conclusion of your answer, a brilliant one.

 

There remains little to add to this debate; the war in its different aspects and participants is not sanctioned by competent impartial Sharia Court or tried in any way which can validate it. Therefore in its present form it can be given any name except religious war.I call it a war for competition for power by political entities with Islamic names.

 

Ilaahay khayrka ha ina waafajiyo

 

Aamin

 

The Awakener2

[Nur]

Akhi al kareem

 

Your conclusion left a lot to be desired, I am indeed dismayed that you have not benefited from my long contribution in this thread, nor made any reference to it in your conclusion for me to consider it as a sober conclusion that reflects your scholarly debate.

 

I removed myself from acting like a judge for a purpose, but, as person, I do have my opinion on this issue, rightfully or wrongfully, but what was important to me in this thread of yours was that you should have read every line that I have written to make your conclusion credible, but, its apparent that you have either ignored my writing at will, or you failed to understand the gist of my thesis. Either case, let me ask you this:

 

We have two groups here, one group as you have said, is religious, and they kill the other group because they believe them to be Murtaddeen, while the TFG , a political group are killing them due to political motives.

 

You conclude, that we should give a chance to govern to a coalition of window dressing wadaads and the group that was known to kill and assassinate Islamists on behalf of foreign paymasters, and who have traded the nation for mere Dollars , who were behind the longest and fiercest clan civil war Somalia has known , who also have committed so much mischief in Somalia since 1991. And despite your huffing and puffing of how terrible they are, you are very supportive and forgiving, as if their crime is far less that the crime of their opponents.

 

 

To simplify my question for you yaa akhi.

 

Which Case is more serious.

 

A and B are brothers , they both belong to the same religion live in the same house.

 

C is their historical common enemy and belongs to a different religion which is increasingly hostile to their collective religion. C finds B to share same values like his.

 

 

1. A kills B because A believes B to be a Murtad ( Apostate) because A violated Islam by becoming slave for C who hates Islam and works for its dilution and destruction.

 

2.B kills A because C paid him to Kill A, because C hates A's religious interpretation that becomes an obstacle in C plans in their region. ?

 

 

Your Conclusion:

 

Let us give B a chance ?

 

 

Nur

[xiinfaniin]

It’s simple cause and effect, Nur.

 

C is here to intervene because A and B are unable to resolve the conflict between them. C apparently takes advantage of the situation.

 

B calls for the cessation of hostilities, and prefers dialogue to violence. A wages war on B. It insists continuing the fight until it defeats both B and C in the belief that Allah is with them against B and C.

 

My conclusion, A should give B a chance , and deny C the justification to intervene, and take advantage of the situation.

[Positive]

You have left out A/B in your equation who has the same ideological goals as A but has similar political objectives as B

 

C with his geo-political/ economic interest and religious persuasion has always been here and will continue to be. The war is serving his interest now and he stays envolved by supplying probably all sides with their war effort through many times means the brotners can not foresee.

 

Stop the war and you will find C frantically looking for a new strategy.

 

Now an example of the mud the brothers are merged in:

 

A believes B to be Murtad and fights With him but still A is not good friend with A/B either; instead he alienates him and even fought with him over resources/disagreements. While B is fighting with his two brothers on the name of defence.

 

The brothers hence are waging unjustified war in an implicit or explicit way.

 

The prolongation of the war by the brothers regardless of who is wrong or right are serving C and in effect justifications aimed to continue the war serve his interest. When we agree this permiss can we propose solutions.

 

The Awakener2

[NGONGE]

^^ You're getting yourselves lost in all this Alphabet nonsense. The bottom line is that Al Shabab believe they are right and they will fight anyone who disagrees with them. The question should be about finding a way to stop Al Shabab from fighting and get them to the negotiating table (with A, B, C or Z).

 

I personally doubt it and see only three options. Agree with Al Shabab, Obliterate them or wait for Al Shabab to eat itself up. Option one becomes difficult to accept with every passing day. Option two is not likely with the current TFG. Option three is the only one that was on the table from day one. It's a stalemate, poeple.

 

Don't let me stop you from patronising each other though.

[xiinfaniin]

^^I dont know how you missed it, but the gist of this discussion is whether there is a religious grounds for calling TFG a dawladah riddah, awoowe.

[Kashafa]

^^ Answer this question, my dear murji'ah: At what point & time will you concede that the TFG is a Dowlatu Riddah. In other words, what actions does Murtad Sharif have to do and what words does he have to utter in order for you to concede he is a Murtad, or will he always be Muslim regardless of what he does(even if he bans the hijab & salah like Attaturk), a maangaab, but more importantly, murji'ah position hilariously lampooned by Shaykhuna Nur below.

 

Focus now. I asked you question, be brave enough to answer.

Xiinfaniin's Somali Leaders Exceptionalism Theory:

 

Xiinfaniin's theory states that Western Appointed Somali leaders known as the TFG, regardless of what they have done in the past, or are engaged in the present, remain intimately glued in the fold of Islam as long as they don't claim openly to have opted out of Islam by loudly saying DIINTA ISLAAMKA WAAN KA BAXNAY.(

)

 

No action they commit

, national sovereignty they cede to the enemy,

alliance with proven opponents of Islam they commit to

, or any utterance of contempt of Islam they broadcast in the media can warrant their apostasy from the Islamic fold, and for the sake of unity, all Somalis, regardless of their ideological persuasion must

rally behind their western appointed leaders

to make peace in Somalia in order to stop the indiscriminate artillery shelling and civilian slaughter of the frustrated African Union Mercenaries who are only responding to the resistance fighters attacks, and who are in Somalia to make peace based on a western vision for the country. If all Somalis rally behind the

corrupt Clan based warlord-cum-Sufi Government

,

the west will be happy with us

and peace will flourish in Somalia

Perfectly sums up Xiin's entire socio-politico-religious outlook(ie, Gaalo-raac'ing Murji'ah-ism). Another brilliant piece by Shaykh Nur.