Contempt for God?

[Castro]

Faith fading in rich world, alive in poor: Pope

Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:56 PM ET

 

By Philip Pullella and Madeline Chambers

 

MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - Western societies are losing their souls to scientific rationality and frightening believers in the developing world who still fear God, Pope Benedict told an open-air mass in Germany on Sunday.

 

Benedict, on the second day of a visit to his native Bavaria, said that spreading the word of Jesus Christ was more important than all the emergency and development aid that rich churches like those in Germany gave to poor countries.

 

He also stressed the role of faith in fighting AIDS "by realistically facing its deeper causes," indirectly confirming the Church view that pre-marital abstinence and fidelity in marriage are the way to combat sexually transmitted diseases.

 

About 250,000 faithful, many of them families with children, gathered at the fairground for the mass. "I've been here since five o'clock in the morning," said Kerstin Gessert, 32, from Karlsruhe. "I think it's important that he has come."

 

Wearing green and white vestments, the Pope addressed the crowd from a platform covered by a white canopy.

 

Some in the crowd wore traditional Bavarian folk dress and sat down to picnics of sausages and bread after the service.

 

"Social issues and the Gospel are inseparable," said the Pope. "When we bring people only knowledge, ability, technical competence and tools, we bring them too little," he said, hammering away at his central concern that secularisation and materialism have replaced faith in Western thinking.

 

Later, Benedict, 79, who has hinted the visit to his home region could be his last, led vespers at the Cathedral Of Our Lady in Munich where he served as archbishop from 1977 to 1982.

 

The twin green onion domes make the cathedral one of the city's best-known landmarks. Completed in 1488, it is Bavaria's largest church and has served as the cathedral for the archbishops of Munich and Freising since 1821.

 

Inside, the Pope, clad in glittering vestments of green, silver and gold, smiled broadly as young girls in first communion dresses and with flowers in their hair greeted him.

 

On his six-day trip, Benedict will also visit his birthplace at Marktl am Inn, the shrine to the Virgin Mary at Altoetting and Regensburg, where he taught theology from 1969 to 1977.

 

Police said the bright yellow house where the Pope was born in Marktl am Inn and which he was due to visit on Monday, was splashed overnight with two bags of blue paint by vandals.

 

"CONTEMPT FOR GOD"

 

At the morning mass Benedict said that Western societies had become "hard of hearing" about God, saying: "There are too many other frequencies in our ears. What is said about God strikes us as pre-scientific, no longer suited for our age."

 

He contrasted this to a faith he still found in developing countries, where 70 percent of the world's Catholics now live.

 

"People in Africa and Asia admire our scientific and technical prowess, but at the same time they are frightened by a form of rationality which totally excludes God from man's vision, as if this were the highest form of reason," he said.

 

They sensed a "contempt for God" in Western societies and "a cynicism that considers mockery of the sacred to be an exercise of freedom and hold up utility as the supreme moral criterion for the future of scientific research," he said.

 

He singled out the German Catholic church, one of the world's richest, as one that generously gives emergency and development aid but plays down the spreading of the Gospel. "Evangelisation itself should be foremost," he declared.

 

Source

[Qandalawi]

^^ FYI this section is "Islam" and not religion in general. And Mr Pope Benedict's speech is not very welcome in here..

[Castro]

Originally posted by Tukaale:

^^ FYI this section is "Islam" and not religion in general. And Mr Pope Benedict's speech is not very welcome in here..

Did you read the bloody article? Brother, your response strikes me "as pre-scientific, no longer suited for our age." :rolleyes:

[Qandalawi]

^ LOL, you are too right, damn not our age!

 

I did read it brother, dissappointingly it was a waste of 2 or 3 minutes. May I ask for compensation?

[Castro]

Originally posted by Tukaale:

I did read it brother, dissappointingly it was a waste of 2 or 3 minutes. May I ask for compensation?

Tell me, brother Tukaale, what evokes these feelings of disapointment in you when reading this article? Is it the identity of the author? The message he's bringing forth? The language in which it's written? The paper that published it? And why disapointment and not fury or disgust? What is it saaxib?

 

Nevermind. These are all rhetorical questions. I'm not even slightly interested in knowing why you're so disapointed.

[Khayr]

Salams,

 

"People in Africa and Asia admire our scientific and technical prowess, but at the same time they are frightened by a form of rationality which totally excludes God from man's vision, as if this were the highest form of reason," he said.

 

They sensed a

"contempt for God" in Western societies and "a cynicism that considers mockery of the sacred to be an exercise of freedom and hold up utility as the supreme moral criterion for the future of scientific research

," he said.

It is ever so easy to be a cynic and ride the wave of cynicism, when hoter water runs all day and night, the bellys are full and you can communicate with your grandparents via Aol/Msn (No need to live near them or pay them visits .

 

I recall seeing a picture of the somali coastline and how vast the ocean is. It was a scary image (from an airle view) because it made me realize how tiny Bani Adam is. Just a drop in the ocean, littereally-that is our size. Yet, we have the Kibir/Pride to question HEAVEN and limit GOD to our own RELATIVE, limited, understanding. :mad:

 

Its the same story that played out in Janna, when Iblis/devil said that he was created from Fire and Adam was created from Clay. Thereby, an admission of self-pride and CONTEMPT of GOD. As if IBLIS/THE DEVIL, knew better then GOD about CREATION. Subhanallah!!! :rolleyes:

 

Well the same play, plays over and over again in Bani-Adam, in the children of Adam/humans.

 

It is very hard to be humble and 'GOD FEARING' in an Age and TIME, wherein FOOD can be ordered over the food or net-in an instant. No appreciation of anything and no humility or gratitude shown, unless it involves a PAYCHEQUE.

 

 

There is Wisdom in what the Pope says.

 

Fi Amanillah

[Qandalawi]

My young brother, Carter, you are so simple, asking those many questions, I say very Simple, or is it normal attitude of yours to neglect, Negligence!

 

If memory serves me correctly, I already raised my concern, thus, as you so willingly admit, It's just rhetorical questions.... right there I'll leave it...

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Khayr:

limit GOD to our own RELATIVE, limited, understanding.

I'm curious Kheyr and I've been wanting to ask you this for sometime: do you have personal relationship with God that the rest of us aren't in on? You're soooo sure of things sometimes. Like our understanding of God being relative and limited. From whence did you get such illuminating ideas? How do they come to you? Via bolts of lightening?

 

 

It is very hard to be humble and 'GOD FEARING' in an Age and TIME, wherein FOOD can be ordered over the food or net-in an instant.

If this was true, how do you explain the fact upwards of 85% of the people in our world believing in some form of Higher Being? It seems to me, based entirely on the facts, it's a lot harder to have no faith in God than the other way around. Just like it's a lot harder to swim against the flow of river than not.

 

About the article, the Pope got it wrong. It's anachronistic to suggest wealth and indigence predicate migratory patterns of faith. That misses the point entirely. Education is the absolute bare requirement for prosperity. The disadvantaged are generally benighted, while the privileged are highly educated. Therefore, we can establish that education is the driving force for dropping rate of faithful in the West or Rich World.

[Castro]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

Education is the absolute bare requirement for prosperity. The disadvantaged are generally benighted, while the privileged are highly educated. Therefore, we can establish that education is the driving force for dropping rate of faithful in the West or Rich World. .

Summarizing the above in point form:

 

1) Education is the absolute bare requirement for prosperity

2) The disadvantaged are generally benighted

3) The privileged are highly educated

4) [Faith lacking among most educated and from 1) the wealthiest]

therefore

5) Education is the driving force for dropping rate of faithful in west or rich world.

 

How then do you explain the United States? With a literacy rate of 99% (you'd agree that literacy is the "absolute bare requirement for" education, wouldn't you?) and unparalleled wealth yet a rate of less than 10% admitted atheist, agnostic or non-believing? Even worse, Vietnam, though also educated but pretty poor (wonder why their literacy and education didn't bestow wealth upon them) and yet over 80% self-confessed non-believers?

 

Your conclusion is a bit contrived SBiyow. A better conclusion could have been neither education nor wealth is a very good indicator of faith, or lack thereof.

[Nur]

Castro bro.

 

 

Thanks for contributing an interesting read, inshAllah I want to share my quick thoughts:

 

1. Allah SWT says in Quraan " Yaclamuuna Zaahiran minal xayaatil Dunyaa wa hum canil aakhirati Ghaafiluun. meaning: "They know the ZAAHIRAN ( Empirical facts) of the life on earth, while they are oblivious of the life to come ( Hidden GHAIB).

 

2. Allah also so says," wa maa uutiitum minal cilmi illaaa qaliilaa" meaning : ( Man) was not given knowledge, except for a little amount"

 

3. Allah SWT says: innal insaana la yadghaa, an ra'aahu istaghnaa. Meaning : Man indeed transgresses bounds (set for him by Allah) when he becomes wealthy.

 

Knowledge leads to wealth, and wealth leads to transgression and faithlessness, as nations in the west become riicher materially, they are also becoming poorer spiritually by virtue of their own contempt and misunderstanding of their Christian religion which they have altered many times to suit their evolving lifestyles and desires. Now they are virtual prisoners of a secularism that they have inherited from an adultered religion that was falsified many times by Roman kings and their Jewsih allies ( Saint Paul). Christianity in its present form is a product of Jesus message + Roman Kings ploicies+ Jewsih falsification of the scriptures. Mix all of the above and you have Christianity which taught that the universe is flat and hanged Galilleo Galillei and other scientists for their observations.

 

The current secular knowledge taught accross curriculums in Europe and North America has its roots in the earlier clash between the Church and state, in which education and politics were secularized, and for a good reason: The Church among many things was suffering from the following problems

 

1. The Bible contained scientific blunders, mistakes, errors and illogical teachings presented as the absolute word of God, eventhough non of the authors of the Bible was even known well enough beyound their first names ( Mark, Luke, etc), the authors were not God, but the Bible was presented as the word of God.

 

2. Socially, in the early part, the Church sided with the aristocrats and kings, allienating scientists and the working class, they sought to be the highest ruer of the land, thus the rebellion of the public and demand of separation of Chursh and state and the demand for secular Democracy in Europe and confinement fo Church to Sunday schools and charity work.

 

From the above, The Christian west embarked on Scientific reasoning after losing trust in religious facts and teachings explaing the universe, creation and matter, which led to the cureent athiest leaning secular western thought that the Pope is referring to.

 

When we look back in History, similar situations arose:

 

1. Pharoah of Egypt was leader of the most advanced nation on earth in terms of scientific and intellectual dimension, yet, a lowly Jew with a messge from God which he ironically raised in his own Pallace ended his legacy of supremacy and injustice.

 

2. Similarly, many nations mentioned in Quraan claimed supremacy through knowledge and challanged God, from the nation of Aad who said inj Quraan:

 

Wa ammaa Caadun fastakbaruu fil ardi bi gheiril xaqi wa qaaluu man ashadduu minnaa quwaa..... meaning : As for (nation of) Aad, they have transgressed and claimed supremacy on earth (by saying) who is mightier than us" Allah says in Quraan " Have they not seen that Allah who created them in the first place is far mightier than they are.

 

Knowledge is indeed power when its used to do good on earth, because all good is from Allah alone, there is no other source of good on earth period, in that sense if knowledge leads people to affluence and injustice by stealing poor people's resources and their exploitation, then, the mighty nations will follow the footsteps fo Pharaoh and the like.

 

 

Nur

[Castro]

Originally posted by Nur:

Knowledge leads to wealth, and wealth leads to transgression and faithlessness, as nations in the west become riicher materially, they are also becoming poorer spiritually by virtue of their own contempt and misunderstanding of their Christian religion

That's basically what SB said, sheikh Nuurow, but there's only anecdotal evidence supporting it. Of the top 5 countries (China, Japan, Russia, Vietnam and Germany) with the largest number of atheists/agnostics, only one (Germany) is considered western and only two (Japan and Germany) are considered wealthy. The other 3 are developing nations (read: not yet wealthy) but with high levels of literacy/education. It seems to me then that material wealth is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for spiritual poverty.

 

My point is, it is easy to associate wealth with faithlessness but an argument could be made that this is not always the case and that the poor and/or illiterate are just as likely, if not more, to be unbelieving as the rich.

[Nur]

Castro bro.

 

you write:

 

My point is, it is easy to associate wealth with faithlessness but an argument could be made that this is not always the case and that the poor and/or illiterate are just as likely, if not more, to be unbelieving as the rich.

 

Precisely, not all cases of wealth lead to unbelief and arrogance, the Prophet Muhammad SAWS used to supplicate " Allahumma innii acuudu bika minal faqr wal kasal" O Allah I seek refuge to you from poverty and laziness ( precursor for poverty), in other traditions, it is reported that he said, That utter poverty leads to kufr (faithlessness)

 

 

Nur

[Abu-Salman]

Well, Nur has hinted to some interesting facts.

 

To be honest, Im also increasingly intereted in Christianity, Western thought,its Greek roots and how to rationalize the very fact that many people accepted the gospel despite its flagrant contracditions and uncoherences.

 

As a matter of fact, prophet Issa pbuh or Jesus's teaching was altered by Paul the Jewish "converted through special inspiration" before being "adapted" again to fit the Roman and European paganism of that time.

 

Indeed, even Western experts in theology acknowledge that Christianity is somehow a compromize catering for all those influences, hence explaining its "rapid success".

 

For instance, the cult of Mary respond to the old tradition of Greek godess, probably likewise the human attributes readily ascrbed to the "holy trinity" (the notion of "divine family" is hardly an innovation as well).

 

In a psychological approach, Christian rather painless redemption through Jesus crucifixtion, gifts to Churches (the pope used to offer divine pardon in return of fidels' generosity!)ect could seduce the ignorant and feeble-minded populaces, oblivious of the utter coherence of Islamic pure monotheism or Tawhid.

 

Moreover, we have to take into account the corrupting influence of Greek philosophy, logics and metaphysics that still constitute the bedrock of the so-called Western civilisation (as if one's belief have to be conditioned by the congruence of his theology with Aristotle's delusions!).

 

Nonetheless, it is an open secret that only a very tiny minority do believe litteraly in the Gospels (the fact that there are at last 7 conflicting versions disponible doesn,t help either!).

 

Yet even this insignificant minority is shrinking thanks partly to more readily available Islamic Da'wa, even though many Christians do find Boudhism or other sectarism more coherent than their ancient faith; these undiscutables fact being also widely acknowledged.

 

As for China, Vietnam or Russia, all these countries share strong national pride and were brainwashed by Marxism, so their atheism is indirectly resulting from the mass deprivations prior to communism and a misleading nationalism (just as Iranian Shiisme is concomitant with the injuried pride in the old Persian empires).

 

Of course, modern materialism breeds a culture of taken-for-granted pattern regarding every aspect of life while scientific "breakthroughs" further engraved secular mentality, as if any objective science was conceivable (though, the notion of definite progress become clearly un-assesable nowadays even for the populace).

 

Last but not least, Muslims apathy combined with minds-debilitating Media contribute largely to the persistance of such superstitions, albeit confined to a diminishing minority...

[Johnny B]

Very intresting Fidel - ow !

 

Given that we regard anyone who considers him or herself as anointed with the truth in all matters a fool, the Pope is everything but an exception.

Though i find the exchanges ( you ,SB and sheikh Nur ) intresting , but it'd be a ********* of sort to pretend to have missed the more grave attempt of the Pope to justify the not-so-very-subtle message of " Both our wealth and knowledge are in demand ", in another words a supremacy in religion and wealth.

 

Obviously the correlation between Poverity and Faith is more or less the same as the correlation between Richness and Faith , the chicken and the egg trick of sort , but the Pope seems too eager to re-export only this exclussive piece of the westren culture , again with the support of the old and most grave assumtion of all time , namely , "They both need to be fed and know why " Halelulja.

 

The Pope unfortunately depicts the poor Christians as the fool and drenged ,and in my view it'd be pusillanimous if not dishonest for an informed cincere person to conclude otherwise.â€

 

As for the Pope's claim that the west's rationality freightens the christians in Africa and Latin America it leaves much to be desired . being that it putatively comes from no one else but from the "infalliable"Pope.

[Viking]

Castro,

Throughout history, an increase of wealth has always led to a decrease of faith. Perhaps prosperity makes man think he is not in need of God.

 

Nur,

I think that Matthew was also known as Matthew Levi son of Alphaeus, John is son of Zebedee but I don't think much is known of Mark and Luke.