They are back [Ethios]

[N.O.R.F]

The argument that the government is being imposed on the people by foreign powers is rather lame. Granted Somalia has others meddling in it’s affairs but those who have been entrusted with over-seeing the transition process after an invasion and occupation should be given the chance to govern. AS flatly refused to take part in any of the peace talks in Djibouti thus making the call that they represent the people a redundant one. The support shown to the legitimate new president when elected was there for all to see.

 

In addition, prior to the Ethiopian invasion, weren't the very same individuals in talks with the then government of Cabdillahi Yusuf? Talks were being held in Karthoum we all remember now. The UIC stated that they wanted to work with the TFG. The faces of the TFG might have changed but it still operates under the same charter. Did we forget this little fact cyber mujahidow? What has changed? Oh, AS today have more guns and there are no Ethios around (aar meesha aan qabsano). This is no jihad by any means.

 

Now, lets have a look at the Transitional Federal Charter. The same charter that stipulates the following:

 

ARTICLE 2

THE TERRITORY OF SOMALIA.

1. The Territorial Integrity and Sovereignty of the Somali Republic

shall be inviolable and indivisible.

2. The territorial sovereignty of the Somali Republic shall extend to

the land, the islands, territorial sea, the subsoil, the air space and

the continental shelf.

3. The Somali Republic shall have the following boundaries.

(a) North; Gulf of Aden.

(b) North West; Djibouti.

© West; Ethiopia.

(d) South south-west; Kenya.

(e) East; Indian Ocean.

and

 

ARTICLE 8

RELIGION.

1.

Islam

shall be the religion of the Somali Republic.

2. The Islamic

Sharia

shall be the basic source for national

legislation

The government have now formally stated and ratified that Shariah Law will be Somalia's governing law and are working towards bringing the relevant qualified people into the necessary positions.

 

I shall leave you with the following:

 

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 257:

 

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

 

The Prophet said, "If somebody sees his Muslim ruler doing something he disapproves of, he should be patient, for whoever becomes separate from the Muslim group even for a span and then dies, he will die as those who died in the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance (as rebellious sinners). (See Hadith No. 176 and 177)

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 258:

 

Narrated 'Abdullah:

 

The Prophet said, "A Muslim has to listen to and obey (the order of his ruler) whether he likes it or not, as long as his orders involve not one in disobedience (to Allah), but if an act of disobedience (to Allah) is imposed one should not listen to it or obey it. (See Hadith No. 203, Vol. 4)

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 259:

 

Narrated 'Ali:

 

The Prophet sent an army unit (for some campaign) and appointed a man from the Ansar as its commander and ordered them (the soldiers) to obey him. (During the campaign) he became angry with them and said, "Didn't the Prophet order you to obey me?" They said, "Yes." He said, "I order you to collect wood and make a fire and then throw yourselves into it." So they collected wood and made a fire, but when they were about to throw themselves into, it they started looking at each other, and some of them said, "We followed the Prophet to escape from the fire. How should we enter it now?" So while they were in that state, the fire extinguished and their commander's anger abated. The event was mentioned to the Prophet and he said, "If they had entered it (the fire) they would never have come out of it, for obedience is required only in what is good." (See Hadith No. 629. Vol. 5)

Saxix Bukhari

 

Obedience to the government who have stated their desire to reconcile Somalia through peaceful means is an OBLIGATION as, I and many others, believe such obedience is NOT contrary to Islam whereas disobedience of the same IS purely because of the reasons given for opposition and not giving the government the chance to implement their desired measures nor have they opporessed the people (me no scholar by the way).

 

Ma ila socotaa mujaahidow?

 

I will next address the AMISOM issue.

[NGONGE]

AS flatly refused to take part in any of the peace talks in Djibouti thus making the call that they represent the people a redundant one. The support shown to the legitimate new president when elected was there for all to see.

What? From his 275 hand picked members? War pull the other one!

 

Al Shabab are sticking to their principles and carrying on with a fight they started in the days of AY. You are being extremely duplicitous and unwittingly two-faced when you condemn them for opposing Sh. Hotel yet were supporting them when they opposed Abdullahi Yusuf.

 

The simplistic arguments that say AY brought Ethiopians to Somalia does not really get past the simplest scrutiny. AY always argued that he had no choice but to request the help of the Ethiopians in the face of the blood thirsty Courts (who, if you remember, refused to sit down and talk or even join his government). Now, Sh. Sharif is using the exact excuse and saying that he has no choice but to request the assistance of the African troops (citing the refusal of the Shabab to join his government or negotiate, as the reason)! Six of one and half a dozen of the other, saaxib.

 

The choices are clear. You either oppose foreign interference (and troops) in Somalia and fight against them all, or, you welcome anything that would help fix Somalia (Ethiopian troops included). Your problem (and those that support your opinions) is that you follow personalities and not events. You disliked Abdullahi Yusuf and would have opposed him no matter what he did. You dislike Ethiopians and would oppose them even if they were the last and only hope for Somalia. But, you love Sh. Sharif and would support him no matter what he did and, suddenly (absurdly, incredibly, two-facedly, etc, etc) you have no problem with foreign troops in Somalia (as long as they are not Ethiopians - and even that resistence may go if it's the good Sheikh that invited them)!

 

Al Shabab might be the worst people to rule Somalia and a victory for them may mean that the country will remain in a state of war for decades to come. However, for now, and on this point, they are completely correct in the path they have chosen (if, you still agree that they were correct when fighting the Ethiopians).

 

ps

Kashafa, take the day off, son. I've got this one.

[Som@li]

"Markay laba maroodi dagaalamaayaan, Cawska ayaa ku dhibtooda, ALshabaab should keep fighting cuz they were fighting Yeey govenment yesterday, and that does not make sense, If al shabaab leaders are smart, they should think out side the box, Al shabaab should think beyond Sharif government, judging from their mentaly, stuborness, and lack of vision, they will overan the government, and Somalia will be in this viscious circle for years to come.

 

Colka Nabad ma lagu deyey?

[N.O.R.F]

Ngonge,

 

I've been waiting for that. Surprised it has taken you so long

 

Will response after a cuppa,,,,,,

 

ps you keep refering to Kash's consistency without giving your opinion on whether or not his position is indeed correct. See waaye duqa?

[N.O.R.F]

Ngonge,

 

Is it me or are you deliberately avoiding addressing the different situations under Yeey’s TFG and Sharif’s. Heck do you even see that there is a difference between Dec 06 and May 09? Looking at things in simplistic terms is not your style saxib so why now? On top that you’re not aware that it was Yeey who refused to talk with the UIC and not vise versa!

 

Yeey Situation

 

1. Once upon a time there was an organisation called the UIC. They rooted the warlords and gained control over swaths of the south. For 6 whole months there was peace.

 

2. Then, and prior to any discussions taking place between the TFG and the UIC, thousands of Ethiopian soldiers crossed over into Somalia under the pretext that they were simply training the TFG army and there were only 200 of them.

 

3. The talks between the TFG and the UIC started with no success whatsoever after, and get this, Yeey had agreed to a broad based government which included UIC members before flying to Addis. The rest is history as they say. The talks collapsed because of the TFG and not because of the UIC.

 

4. Yeey and the TFG refusing the path of peace and choosing to remove the UIC with the help of Ethiopian soldiers is, in my humble opinion, islamically incorrect. The opportunity for peace was not embraced and he (Yeey) as a leader was now fighting his brethren with the help of gaalo. Looting and raping in the process.

 

This is why I supported the residence who later emerged as the AS and were victorious. Did I hate Yeey? Of course I did.

 

Sharif situation

 

1. After the prolonged presence of Ethiopian soldiers and the situation deteriorating, the same man who was the head of the UIC lead the peace and helped initiate the withdrawal of the Ethiopian troops.

 

2. He later became president and promised to try and reconcile all. He introduced and passed through parliament Sharia Law to try and sway some sort favour from AS and co.

 

3. AMISOM are his protectors. AMISOM are not out killing AS and co. Actions of AMISOM against the Somali people are known and yes they should leave. However, the situation on the ground would be no different. AS would still attack the govn’t.

 

4. Having been in power for 3 or 4 months Sharif has not been given the chance. The same people who are today shouting and refusing to talk to the government were previously in discussion with Yeey.

 

Refer back to what I wrote to Kash about the rights and wrongs of opposing a government/ruler. The TFG was wrong under Yeey whilst AS are wrong today. Do I like the Sharif? Of course I do.

 

One needs to recognise the difference to make such a stance and I say well done for those who have.

[NGONGE]

It all looks great when you convince yourself that is the way things were!

 

The discussions between the TFG and the Courts in June 2006, took place BEFORE a whisper was even heard about the presence of Ethiopian soldiers in Somalia (in fact, the Khartoum discussions took place only a month after the Courts took over the Somali capital). But the ICU refused the overtures of Yusuf and eventually declared war on him. Whatever romantic notion you have of them, there is no doubt that they were the aggressors here and they were the ones making the threats. Yet, yet, yet, YOU supported them.

 

Yusuf carried on talking to them even when they went ahead and 'invaded' the town were his seat of government was (is your memory that bad, saaxib?).

 

Did you forget how they used the 'presence' of Ethiopian soldiers as an excuse to refuse talking to the TFG?

 

Now though, it is all different. You are trying to wriggle and invent all sorts of excuses why we should support Sh. Sharif and how his problem with the Shabab is different.

 

Saaxib, work on your facts and rethink your positions on this. I am not asking you to support the Youth; I just want you to come up with a reasonable excuse here.

 

If you say Al Shabab should 'obey' their ruler then they (and you) should have obeyd Abdullahi Yusuf. Faith is not a supermarket where you pick and choose the parts you want to buy, ninyo.

 

I think at this point, Kashafa would say: repent ya is-qan-ci (or whatever that word was) waaxid.

[Kamaavi]

^^

 

NGONGE, adeerow saan wax u arko Kashafa iyo North fasax qaata ayaad ka tiri.

 

Xiin , Thiery, Abtigiis iyo Juuje iyana baaq culus ayaad u baaqday.

 

Sidaa inay ku imaan hayaan u malayn maayo laakiin wax walba badane

iyagoo fardahooga cayrinaya bal inay yimaadan aan dhawrno.

 

Oodka isagu waa intuu Mr.Xiin ka arki.

[wacdaraha_aduunka]

Ngonge I co sign everything on the last post

[Resistance]

Norf i don't think u have a leg to stand on this argument.

The very same people that build their political career on the Ethopian Army Occopation argument and are now implying a return of those Xabashis is acceptable because they are better than the Shabaabs.

 

The irony is if they, Ethopia or any foreign forces, inter Somalia it will justify the existance of the Shabaabs etc and further create another Oppisition group that will build their Political career to free Somalia once again.

 

Supporters of the current TFG ( of which i am one ) need to come up with a different solution to this problem that will make sure the blood of the Somali people is spared. If the TFG continues on its current rhetotic of fighting back and ridding Somalia of Shabaabs then they are dreaming.

[N.O.R.F]

Ngonge,

 

Are you saying AY did not refuse to travel to Khartoum for talks with the UIC? Also, do you realise the Ethios confirmed their presence in Somalia at the time (the UIC was telling the truth)?

 

I think my memory is better than yours saxib

 

If you say Al Shabab should 'obey' their ruler then they (and you) should have obeyd Abdullahi Yusuf. Faith is not a supermarket where you pick and choose the parts you want to buy, ninyo.

1. Yeey did wrong (refuse to talk and bring Ethios to kill muslims).

 

2. One should not obey wrong-doing ruler.

 

3. Resistance justified.

 

4. Ethios leave

 

5. Sharif is made prez

 

6. Sharif is ready and willing for talks

 

7. AS and co are not

 

Get it?

[wacdaraha_aduunka]

Norf your deluding yourself brother. The president wasnt required neither was he asked to attend as isuma dhigmaan laakinse wasiirki hore ee arimaha dibeda baa ka qaybgalay. Then what happened, they came with conditions like why is Ethiopia sitting in the meeting. Then the government said ok ad they were kicked , htne came why is Kenya there and started to demand all the neighbouring country to go out of the meeting.... When that wasnt satisfied they started to atack Deynuunay and Baydhabo and in came the ethios.

 

Norf when the dum Maxaakim officials starting saying 'Ololka dabka waxaanu ku kicineena iridka laga galo Addis Abbaba' gave Meles the clear sign and called his parliament and said to the world the Maxaakims have declared war. Thats what happened

[N.O.R.F]

^Save it saxib. I'm talking to Ngonge and Kash here.

[NGONGE]

^^ I gave you the timeline, saaxib.

• Courts defeat warlords in May 2006
• Courts and TFG meet for talks in June 2006
• Courts takeover Jowhar in June 2006.
• Courts declare war on TFG in late 2006

What happened in between? Go back and check your history, saaxib. Abdullahi Yusuf was willing to talk to the Courts but once they attacked his seat of government at the time and forced him to move to Baidoa, he toughened his resolve and (like them) put extra conditions on the table if talks were to continue (yet, the talks did continue and there was hope of resuming them until the last minute and the seven day ultimatum).

 

As for your numbered points:

• Sharif is doing wrong (and has Ugandans killing the people).
• Is a ruler that allows his protectors to kill his subjects not a wrongdoer (using your own logic)?

Adeer, even the Caravan's biggest fan is saying these exact words on another thread.

 

 

Originally posted by

xiinfaniin

:

 

 

When the Islamic Courts won the war against Mogadishu warlords every sane person saw it as a victory for Somali people. Alshabaab brilliantly manipulated and managed all the subsequent events to their advantage however, without many people realizing it.

They started a war in the midst of a serious negotiation

because they could and because they wanted the Somali conflict to continue until their terms are met.

 

Give it up.

[Fabregas]

^^ He conveniently leaves out the part when a certain young sheikh waved an ak47 and declared war on Ethiopian troops on multiple occasions. What he is talking about is the last minuted negotiations which failed due to 7 seven day deadlines, but the war was already set in motion by many events( including Sheikh Shariffs calls to war). Unless Xiin is saying that the sheikh was controlled and forced to declar war..........

[xiinfaniin]

^^ This is the thread you ran away. Go back to it and give a reasoble answer. I blv you have a littel more decorum then the Keligiii Muslim Kashafa

 

 

Zeylaci, No you are the one who is talking like the keligi-muslims of SOL. This is what you are forgetting;

 

1- Sharif led Courts war in Xamar after warlords started to think god-fearing wadaads as commodities that can be easily produced by the demand of cia consumption.

 

2- After the victory, Sharif accepted to negotiate with TFG, and begun to send delegations to Khartoum of Sudan. It was the right thing to do.

 

3- When those negotiations showed signs of bearing fruits, the puritans, well embedded in the highest echelons of Courts structure and having absolute control of its military power, started to abort everything Sharif and likeminded men were doing for Somalia.

 

4- It was alshabaab that recruited Indhacadde to issue ultimatums against tfg that was holed up in Baydhabo, and it was alshabaab that carried out failed suicide attempts against Abdullahi Yusuf

 

5- It was alshabaab that finally attacked Baydhabo without even notifying the leaders of the Islamic Courts, resulting the hurried defeat and years of set backs.

6- Sharif was forced to flee, as he became a leader for a group that in reality was working against what he believed.

 

7- In the bushes of Jubbooyin the real agenda of this group came to fore, and men like Sharif realized the real ideology behind the sham Islamic slogans. He quickly sought to exit, and found a safe haven in Yemen.

 

In bullet #1, a reasonable person would not equate what happened in 2006 with what’s happening now. It was a necessary war; this one just like the one in Daynuunay is a foolish war. In bullet #7, it was the right thing to have done in light of the facts that what this group wanted was incompatible with what Sharif, and the majority of sahwah wanted.

 

Today at the feat of brilliant peace negotiation, with a spectacular power handover in the tfg’s structure, with an active assembly of Muslim scholars consulting ways to bridge the gap, the crazed youth equipped just like you with half cooked fatwas from men hiding in the mountains of Afghanistan erupted with violence and started firing indiscriminate mortars toward the political seat of Sharif. Instead of seeing the misguided act for what it is, you lose your spontaneous thought and sheepishly endorse the violence or the fitnah as you were saying in the other thread.

 

It will take another thread to educate you about why Ugandan troops have no parallel (in terms of century old suspicion and unresolved border dispute that exist) to Ethiopian army.

 

But first let us get the sequence right, get the historicity of things straight, let’s us draw true analogies, and shun from the false ones.