Keepers of the Faith

[-Serenity-]

With all due respect brother QL, the subject is not the woman, her morals or lack of. It’s the issue she raised. Are we willing to accept that we are disorganized? We are hypocrites who support the govt and regimes that punter to the whims of the west? The ones so ever ready to dissect people of the same faith based on minor differences?

 

I don’t think any1 said anything about “An "Operation Ijtihad" supported and sponsored by the Westâ€. We need a revolution within and quick, cause I know now the fire is burning brightly on the other side.

[QUANTUM LEAP]

“We are hypocrites who support the govt and regimes that punter to the whims of the west? The ones so ever ready to dissect people of the same faith based on minor differences?â€

Yep and she’s one of them remember and she’s playing the card of divide and dissect.

 

She’s a mouth piece for deviated Muslims who no longer happen to be practicing the faith but want to bring in through the back door what the Catholic Church has thus been fighting (Gay priests and lesbians)

 

This has everything to do the woman ideals, her writings and what she advocates for which in this case giving Islam and anyone who believes a bad rap. You have to remember too that she’s indirectly appealing to the young Muslims in the west who have no clue as to what Islam is all about and through misrepresentation. Her writings and speeches are geared towards misleading and misrepresenting. It appears that the abuse she suffered at the hands of her father has engendered in her nature a state of rebelliousness. In her book she labels the Qur’an as a bundle of contradictions. Her opinion appears to have been based on her very superficial knowledge of the Qur’an. I am amazed to note that she flaunts her deviate sexual orientation so openly and so boldly.

 

Infact a critic from the west (Jordy Cummings) describes her and

“The fact is that Manji is a fraudulent opportunist not a feminist or a secularist, but a confused little bourgeois with an axe to grind, who had been used by the Israel lobby against the beliefs she professes to have.â€

So the trouble here is not Islam but her as a person who has very superficial knowledge that she apparently disseminates in the wrong manner backed by a lobby that wants Islam’s downfall including pretenders like her.

[-Serenity-]

QL, I feel like you are purposely taking me for a spin. Are you? Why are you talking about her again?

 

Lets get back to the initial point.

 

I find it absurd that our holy book is debased and Muslim people die as a result. Isn’t that absurd? What is more disconcerting?

 

1. This woman who is making some blasphemous statements in the comfort of her Canadian residence while still pointing out that which is a blatant shortcoming on the part of Muslims worldwide?

 

Or

 

2. Our own short comings in living in so called Muslim-led countries that don’t speak on our behalf and even resort to maiming those that dare to speak up? Even the protests in America didn’t cause any damages!

 

Read below:

Sixteen Afghans have been killed and about 100 injured since violent anti-U.S. protest erupted on Wednesday over a report in Newsweek magazine that U.S. military interrogators at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba had desecrated the Koran.

CNN News

 

Now why are we complaining about the influence people like her have on younger minds and muslim image worldwide? The fact is… we are in a mess! We dont even have a voice in our own homes! And what ever she can say is alike a drop in the ocean of how bad the muslim ummah is represented.

[Paragon]

If we keep deleting such articles and refuse to discuss them because they go against the ‘rules’ of the site; if other Muslim sites refuse to acknowledge the existence of such hogwash because it contains sacrilege and blasphemy, who exactly is going to reply to such people?

NGONGE, as a Muslim I ask, what right do they have to be recognized, even as ‘hogwash’? As Somalis say af-caaytama ninkiisuu ku yaal . These blasphemous people are a lowly kind upon whom we shouldn’t waste time and effort. Blasphemy has no replies sxb, but if you or any other person feels that blasphemy deserves a reply then why not do so? Write in the national newspapers and televisions you mentioned, but don’t force it on those sites that don’t accept blasphemy or the acknowledgement of misguided individuals. It is that simple.

 

With all due respect saaxib, why do we act as if we’re all tucked away safely back home in Somalia or in a predominantly Muslim country, where we’re shielded and protected from hearing any such blasphemous opinions?

Now you ask me if I think we're tucked away shielded from such blasphemy as if we are in a Muslim land. To this I say, we may not be in Muslim lands or back home, but since blasphemy and sin is done before our eyes daily, the (SOL forum and other Muslim sites) have made a conscious decision to create an enclave in which our eyes and minds can temporarily rest from the blasphemy you just posted. This is also the reason why many Muslims eagerly await and welcome winters rather than summers when women are covered up due to the cold. There is no intention to avoid discussing matters such as the ones that woman brings forth, but it is an attempt to do what our faith commands us:

"If anyone of you sees something objectionable, he should change it with his hand, but if he cannot, he should change it with his tongue, and if he cannot he should do it in his heart, that being the weakest form of faith."

Muslim

PS: NGONGE As I said before if this woman raises any question worth discussing then present it in a debatable form. That is not much to ask. This shows were are not trying to avoid discussing matters, and that we wish to debate in a civilized manner in which blasphemy has no place. Your topic still remains based on the advocacy for blasphemy and those ‘faith keepers’ who avoid it. If you want to discuss ‘violence in Muslim demonstration’ which this woman raised, then I am sure you will get a good debate.

[Baashi]

Ngonge, granted there are many troubling aspect of the state of Muslims all over the world. They are weak, illiterate, technologically backward, and poor (most of them). There is no doubt that the problems are monumental ranging from economic stagnation to ineffective curriculums and bad governance. There is no harm in putting these issues under the microscope and having the nomads discuss them one by one. Likewise, putting Manji on the hot seat by refuting all the lies she propagates through the Western media is a good and sensible thing to do. That much is agreed.

 

However, what have you done to refute her lies other than recycle the article giving her more exposure? Have you protested against the newspaper that gave her the platform to do what she does asking that they should give equal platform to other side? Have you written to the editors? Have you written a rebuttal to the editors or posted on SOL? How does posting Manji’s “blasphemous†article benefit nomads that congregate in this part of the forum?

 

They have probably seen it on the TV or read it on the paper. It would have been beneficial had you chip in and lead the pack in dissecting her work showing how absurd it is to change a divine revelation to ones sexual taste or make it fit to the lifestyles of the day. You could point out that there are folks killed in stadiums around the world! In America there were riots (race, sport, etc) in which fellow Americans lost their lives. You could put the violent events that are religious and political in nature in context. Do they only happen in the Islamic world? Isn’t violence a tool for oppressed folk to let some steam out? I’m sure you agree that how the debate on any given issue is framed is very important!

 

Yes, there are problems with Islamic world (not necessarily with Islam itself). Many scholars have been pointing that out for quite sometimes now. If one makes the effort these scholars and their work are available in sites such as Islamic views (iviews.org), Islamicity,org, and many other sites. These scholars do what they do sincerely and out of love of Islam.

 

Unlike Manji they don’t poke fun at religion, they don’t distort the teaching of Islam, they don’t question the basic tenants of Islam. They lay blame at the right doors. They point out the lack of funding of Islamic institutions by the Islamic governments, they point out the lack of balanced curriculums for the youth, the lack of scholarships, the lack of publishing companies, the lack of think tanks operating in the west. Why would you give credence to Manji and her likes when she points out the same problems with intent to distort the teachings of Islam and not heed the same advice given by well-respected scholars? To discuss these issues you don’t need Manji and her likes.

 

I don’t doubt your intention for a second but I think your effort is misplaced.

[Viking]

NGONGE,

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

Viking, you seem to be arguing from the point that this article was written by a feminist, lesbian and ’reformed’ Muslim.

When someone writes their opinion on anything, the first thing you do is do a background check. This would help you to understand the motives behind the words. For example, a couple of years ago, the USA and GB started talking about how Iraq had WMD's and how they wanted to bring 'democracy' to the Middle East. Those who know the track-record of these two nations know that all that was a pack of lies! Although their intentions sounded 'noble' to the uninformed, the rest of the world knew that their intentions we in reality very sinister. Having said that, we should know what the motives behind Irshad Manji's (as you call them) "valid" argument are. Don't be blinded by her "valid" arguments because at the end of the day, this woman is against the basic tenets of Islam.

 

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

Again, are you not residing in the West? Do you not encounter such blasphemous utterances everywhere you go?

I'm constantly exposed to blasphemous comments. Just last nite, I was debating a dude on an African forum where they have made Islam-bashing their favourite sport. I also used to work with a bunch of Iranians like Irshad Manji who say the most ludicrous things about Islam to please their occidental mentors who used to protect their dear Shah. Unlike Manji, my Iranian colleagues openly left the fold Islam and don't pretend to be Muslims. It is easier dealing with non-Muslims than evil, sly individuals who pretend to be on your side while they denounce the basic tenets.

 

 

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

You see, this lady (and all those I’ve mentioned above – plus the ones classique added) all usually start off with valid criticism of Islam before they go on to spread their own schemes! In the case of this particular lady, she started off by making the legitimate point about violence in Islamic protest. She may have spoken about the riots in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but are such spontaneous instances worth writing a whole article about? Is the point she’s making one about the desecrating of the Koran and people’s reaction to it, or is she hinting at the wider manifestations of violence in Muslim affairs

You seem to know her intentions quite well but afraid to point a finger at it. Her aim is to dilute the religion of Allah SWT beyond recognsition, to her own whims. Since you clearly see this, why is it you still see the need of giving it a platform in the forums?

 

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:You’re obviously safe from her enchanting rhetoric, you already loathe the woman and this loathing is shielding you from her occasional valid queries!

Not really, I loathe her but that didn't stop me from seeing the point she tried to sip through between her blasphemous remarks. Her agenda is so obvious and outweighs anything "of vaue" that she may seem to bring forth to the unsuspecting eye. Even the neo-cons use "valid" arguments like "bringing democracy to the Middle East". You and I both know that this is a cloak used to disguise their real agendas. Why is it you don't see Irshad Manji's agendas for what they really are? Are you blinded by one tiny argument that is tucked away in her blsphemous words? Sxb, you can't be that naive!

 

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

Let us face it, saaxib; we are not dealing with a woman who’s having a tantrum here. We’re dealing with someone who has the ability to mislead and, by our own idleness, is allowed to mislead.

And with your help, her wicked words are given more fuel to run through the minds of Muslims browsing these pages.

 

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

On the odd occasion that someone decides to challenge her stance, hardly any elucidation is employed.

This is assuming thy people who wish to rebut her claims are even given the opportunity. You know very well that the only Muslims who are given 'air-time' are those who support the agendas of the people who own the mass-media. People like Manji are given columns in "respected" newspapers while Muslims as a whole are left on the recieving end. Are you unaware of this?

 

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

Now, to return to the demonstrations and the benign way you chose to portray them! The violence was the fault of the puppets of America (Muslims are they not?), violence amongst Muslims started with Mucawiyah (what’s that got to do with the price of fish?). You’re trying to make it sound normal, saaxib. Why? Do you agree with it?

You made it sound like Irshad Manji said something absolutely amazing that you were complelled to post her piece on these pages. I pointed out that Muslims killing each other go as far back as the time of the Sahabas. We all know that it is wrong, unjustifiable etc. but to we need to hear this from someone who is disguisng her agenda with "valid claims as you call them? Muslims are killing each other n Darfur as we speak, do you need to be told this between blasphemous remarks?

 

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

As for your claim that the Imams speak about these issues all the time, well, I beg to differ. It’s not often that one comes across an Imam that speaks about such things or tackles such people. I suspect that most are adopting your way of looking at things: she’s a secular-gay-activist and one should not waste their breath on reading or responding to any of her drivel.

Well, others could think that maybe you and I live in different countries but we actually live in the same city and (probably) live not more than 10 miles from each other. From Finsbury Park to Regents Park, Wembley to Southall mosque, the Imams talk about peace and unity amongst Muslims almost every Friday khutba.

[Paragon]

Originally by NGONGE: However, I do agree with the title of the book, The Trouble With Islam! There is a problem with Islam, a huge and very complicated problem too.

There is no problem with Islam, but with the people. Don't follow the woman's logic Ngonge.

[Mafia]

There is no problem with Islam, but with the people. Don't follow the woman's logic Ngonge.

 

Jamaal, I couldn't agree more. Ngonge seems to have inherited that woman's ideology-searching holes/weakness in Islam where there is none.

 

To Ngonge: I wouldn't expect a Muslim Brother to have such a tenacious spirit in tyring to justify that woman's logic. You cannot say the woman is wrong but also right, when all in question is the Islamic "faith".

[NGONGE]

I’m saddened and disappointed by some of the replies I got. I suppose that despite my repetitive efforts I still failed to get my point across. Oh well, never mind, I’m sure patience and perseverance will eventually get me there.

 

Now, nimbly sidestepping QL and enchantment’s little disagreement (they seem to be doing ok without my interruption) let me at once reply to Jmall, Baashe and most importantly, Viking! But, before I go into any great detail in replying to each point these brothers have raised, let me save myself (and you) a lot of time and effort by quoting Viking!

 

 

 

quote:Originally posted by NGONGE:

Let us face it, saaxib; we are not dealing with a woman who’s having a tantrum here. We’re dealing with someone who has the ability to mislead and, by our own idleness, is allowed to mislead.

 

And with your help, her wicked words are given more fuel to run through the minds of Muslims browsing these pages.

Herein lies the crux of the matter! Now, I’m sure you will not be too shocked if I told you that I posted the article on purpose. This sort of comment is what I was expecting to get and, disappointingly, this is what I got. I purposefully posted the article with no accompanying comments (other than asking if she’s talking sense and if violence is justifiable). The pregnant pause (as it were) was put there to see if my hunch was correct (which was). Kindly do not mistake this for some sort of self-satisfied boasting.

 

It’s all about HER; she’s trying to plant seeds of doubt in our minds! But, Oh! We know her tricks and her manners! She’s not going to pull the wool over our eyes. We should not acknowledge, read or respond to her rubbish.

 

In addition, she’s using blasphemy! She claims to be Muslim but is insulting our religion! How could we tolerate such a person? How could you sully your screen (and ours) with this garbage?

 

Furthermore, why are you helping her spread her venom? The trouble is not with Islam; it’s with Muslims! (The song about potatoes and potatoes springs to mind here).

 

Some of the above were some of the comments made in response to this topic and the article (maybe not exact comments but I’m sure you get the jest of it). Now, to return to the quote by Viking above, he wonders why I’m helping her spread her wicked words! I personally believe the reply to that comment to be obvious (no sarcasm intended). However, having covered my back with the last comment, let me explain why I do so. I posted her article because I was very sure that people here will (after a few initial protests) refute all her points and challenge the opinions contained in that article. The hope was that it would be done for the sake of those browsing these pages. I still believe that such a scenario will develop in the coming few pages (not necessarily as a result of any cajoling from my side).

[bilan]

i did not see that article; however 3 topics were deleted in last week only,and none of them contained any blasphemous,except someone was questioning about islam,i do not see what's wrong with people asking questions,or posting what non-muslims are saying about islam,in my opinion if we post these questions then as muslims we can discuss and explain to thousands who read that article and did not get or have a chance to hear muslim side of the story. it is really sad that some people believe that solution is deleting topics.

[Muhammad]

The trouple here is another case of lost in the translation.

 

Lets make it Clear:

 

1. Islam is Perfect - there is no trouple with Islam.

 

2. Muslims are not Perfect - there will always be trouples within the Ummah.

 

3. You can't be Islam - Islam is seperate from the People. so you can't claim to be Islam!

 

 

Now the problem here is we are trying to find the answers to our solutions from a person whose intention is against Islam. Irshad Manji's has a problem with Islam, her evil desires are not permissible within Islam, thus she attacks it and turns it around into - 'The Trouple with Islam'.

 

 

So Brother Ngonge, you see if we try to digest her works to find the answers to our problems, its like trying to find Halaal Meat in a Pigs Farm.

 

but I agree with Baashi:

 

I don’t doubt your intention for a second but I think your effort is misplaced.

so if you want others to discuss the points you raised, you must wrap them carefully in a nice manner.

[Legend of Zu]

It is obvious we are in agreement of who she is characterwise and her misguiding blasphamous comments. But the question that remains is "what is our response?".

 

Brother Viking mentioned that we should not worry about her because that will only give her more publicity.

 

Now I see differently.. there are more feminists who have emerged lately conveying similar messages and attack Islam every opportunity. We can not ignore them as they have means to deliver their message primarily throught the media and are also well supported -

 

We have several options : -

1 - we can sit back and say she is nothing and hope that time will take care of her or

 

2 - we can get violent and issue fatwas or

 

3 - we can respond by being more active and utilise the limited means of exposure and means we have.

 

In her simplistic, one sided and false ridden article. I will say any muslim with knowledge of his/her deen can see her articles as nothing but mere attack on our religion...but what about others? even non muslims?... I do beleive by posting her article in here and discussin it wont do any harm but use this discussion as a platform to engage our young sistas and brothers in this site. Some of you may not agree with how Ngonge has chosen to tackle this issue nevertheless, we must discuss it one way or the other for example a colleague may ask you during lunch time, wont you think you would be more equipt if you had your views and the ones of your bros and sistas combined?.

 

I say Lets go there for those who know will explain and for those who dont will learn.

 

PS: If you say Ngonge should put it in debate format... I say that is not right... Let everyone critically analyse it and post thier views...

Bummer should go and sleep..perhaps I will be back tomorrow insha Allah

 

Cheers

[Saalixa]

I visited her site a year ago, and when the highlighted title 'MUSILM REFUSE NICK' sprung up,i just closed the window of my internet explorer.

I think Ngong and Viking should stop argueing becuase this lady is a shaitan. She has no use in life but to guide the weak and hypocrites to the hell fire. So let her do her job and she would only collect more Wonderfull deeds. But on a serious note who actually listens to this lady because even the average eduacted individual in the west would know how to categorize a blasphemous text or source of information from the credible islamic scripts.

[xiinfaniin]

lool@I still believe that such a scenario will develop in the coming few pages (not necessarily as a result of any cajoling from my side).

 

The old chap is not giving up!

[underdog]

I think we can separate the comment from the person. Irshad Manji isn't worthy of a response...her account is in default and thats a matter between her and her maker.

 

The real issue is the shorthcomings of the Muslim ummah (especially in the middle east). Leaders of Muslim countries have dropped the ball and have allowed The US and other profit seeking empirailists to blatantly trample on the Muslim people.

 

The same Muslim people came out to protest a crime against the Quraan and a lot died (causes of death withheld - maybe shot by americans?). I can only pray to have the Imaan those who protested and died for the sole reason of being replused by the desecration of our Holy book. I'm sure there were some there who attended for the politics of it all. and again, we can neither judge nor speculate as they're reasons.

 

At the end of the day we all have limits of tolerance as to what you may consider an action-worthy insult to your religion.