Why Science Fails To Explain God

[N.O.R.F]

Originally posted by Raamsade:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Norf 2:

Do you accept that the recent discovery by scientists that the world is still expanding was foretold in the Quran? See verse 51:47.

Of course not because the Quran doesn't say so. It's a complete lie. That's what enthusiastic Muslim apologists say in a bid to show the divine origins of the Quran. According to the Quran the entire world consists of Earth and Heavens (sky) and everything in between. No empty space, no galaxies, no solar systems, no black holes. [/QB]

The Quran doesn't say 'we continue to expand it (refering to the universe in verse 51:47)?

 

I'm interested in FACTS here. The FACT is, the Quran does state the universe is expanding in verse 51:47. The FACT is the Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. The FACT is the Quran hasn't changed since then (all you need to do is confirm it hasn't changed in your lifetime). FACT is scienists only recently confirmed the universe is expanding. If I'm wrong please prove it to me with FACTS! You're own assertions and commentary on Muslims and their take on issues is not what this threads is about nor is it something worth entertaining. Now, PROOVE to me you're right. The floor is yours

[Castro]

Here are at least three hundred proofs that God exists.

 

Hundred's of Proofs of God's Existence (lol)

 

My favorite is this one:

 

ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPREHENSIBILITY

(1) Flabble glurk zoom boink blubba snurgleschnortz ping!

(2) No one has ever refuted (1).

(3) Therefore, God exists.

[Raamsade]

Originally posted by Torres:

The Quran doesn't say 'we continue to expand it (refering to the universe in verse 51:47)?

You're lying through your teeth and making a hash out of it. If you're gonna tell a lie at least make it look plausible. The verse you cited reads:

 

051.047

YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

 

These are the translation of three well respected translators of the Quran. Note that nowhere do you read expanding universe. Even if I or you made a mistake and it is another verse you quoted, I would still bet that you will not find expanding universe in that verse. Moreover, the fact "expanding universe" is in brackets leads me to conclude it was commentary added by Muslim apologists and not the original translation of the verse.

 

Quran says nothing about expanding universe. The reason is simple. The cosmology of the Quran consists of Heavens and Earth. The heavens, 7 of them, are physical domes one on top of each other. And between them and earth lies everything else including the sun, moon, the stars, all living creatures, the oceans and so on. In such cosmology there is no room for empty space, solar systems, galaxies let alone universe. That's why in the Quran there's no mention of solar systems and galaxies.

 

It's simply a lie to say the Quran mentioned expanding universe.

[N.O.R.F]

AND IT IS We who have built the universe [30] with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it (Mohamed Asad).

51:47

[Nur]

Raamsade saaxib

 

You write in your response to Torres:

 

You're lying through your teeth and making a hash out of it. If you're gonna tell a lie at least make it look plausible. The verse you cited reads:

 

Before I deal with this statement its worthwhile to go back to the original question that led to the dispute in the linguistics of translation:

 

 

My Original Question to you was:

 

My question, is therefore, if science proves concepts from the revelations that predate its existence, will scientists accept the revelation as a source of Science?

 

 

For which you answered:

 

This is a loaded question because it assumes that science accepts "revelation." Only once you accept "revelation" can you answer this question. But since science rejects, a priori, the supernatural this is a meaningless question.

 

Which is an invalid circular logic.

 

Secondly:

 

In your argument, you are saying:

 

Since The meaning of expansion is not included in the verse. ( Torres lying through his teeth)

 

Which shows that the Quraan is not Valid, because it disagrees with Science as we understand it today.

 

Which shows that, there is no God and the universe created itself by chance.

 

 

My Response:

 

 

Saaxib, allow me first to discuss the linguistics of the Verse:

 

The word in dispute is " Muusicuun" in Arabic.

 

The root of this word is derived from three letters Waaw, Siin, Cayn.

 

 

First The Language:

 

1. Example: "Maa Asicu Dhaaka": Meaning I am not able do that.

 

2.Example: "Haadal inaa u, yasicu khamsata litran" . Meaning: This vessel has a capacity for five liters.

 

3. Example from Quraan : " Wasicat raxmatii kulla shey". Meaning, "My Mercy has room to accommodate everything".

 

4. Waasic: Noun, Opposite to Narrow

 

5. Wusc : Noun, Ability to carry out an effort.

 

 

Second the Grammar:

 

Muusic: ism faacil, Mufcil, meaning the one who has capacity to spend wealth. Quraan, " Muusici qadruh"

 

Muusicuun: ism Faacil, Jamc muthakkar saalim, meaning,

 

A. One who provides capacity for Sustenance when the root ( WUSC)meaning (Ability) is applied.

 

B. One who causes the opposite of Narrow, or Extends. When a physical Capacity is used.

 

 

The English word expand comes from Latin expandere, from ex. + pandere, or to spread/unfold something

 

After you spread something, naturally, it follows that you can Roll it back. So bare with me saaxib and let us get the whole picture.

 

Saaxib.

 

Now, in light of the above linguistic analysis let us go back to the three original verses that I've posted:

 

1. Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? Anbiyaa 30

 

2. With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof Dhaariyaat 47

 

3. And (remember) the Day when We shall roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books, as We began the first creation, We shall repeat it, (it is) a promise binding upon Us. Truly, We shall do it. Anbiyaa 104

 

 

A. The first verse says that all matter in the Universe, (the earth and heavens) were joined as one entity RATQAN, so we have caused it to separate fataqnaa

 

B. Second Verse says, that the same POWER continues to cause the Universe to increase its capacity, by spreading / extending its vastness.

 

C. Third Verse says, that the heavens will be scrolled back to its original form once again, like the ancient scrolls, back to its original form of a RATQAN ( Dense point)

 

 

IMPORTANT KEYWORDS

 

1.RATQAN, Noun , meaning CONJOINED, or to join together (as separate entities) for a common purpose. In Arabic Grammar, Ratq is masdar, meaning two things joined together seamlessly.

 

2.FATAQNAAA plural First Person Sovereign, Fataqa verb; in Grammar, maaadhii mabni lil majhool; Meaning: to take two seamlessly conjoined entities apart abruptly.

 

Together, these above verses are giving the following meaning:

 

1. The Universe was brought to existence with POWER that Resided outside of it.

 

2. That POWER IS Continuously EXTENDING ITS LIMITS.

 

3. That the Extension has a limit, and finally it will (CONTRACT), shrink back again to its original size.( The Big Crunch)

 

The Quraan was revealed in Arabic language, and to this day it remains unchanged in its original manuscript. It's original audience were illiterate Bedouin Arabs who lived in the desert, with no civilization like Egyptians, Romans or the Greeks to borrow their understanding of the cosmos, as such, the choice of words of the holy Quraan were meant to be simple enough for their comprehension, yet, a lasting testament for people like us today who can understand the subtle scientific implications of some of the words in the Quran and in the original Arabic language. Trouble begins when one relies on translations of the meaning of the Quraan as a source of knowledge in Islam. The first step toward understanding the Quraan is a thorough knowledge of the Arabic Language , its literature, poetry, grammar and arts.

 

 

Since these cosmic facts couldn't have been known by Bedouins in the desert, neither was it known by scientists of that time in the civilized world of the Romans and the Greeks, could there be another explanation for the cosmic beginning, and life on earth.

 

Which brings us back to my original Question that I have posed to you:

 

My question, is therefore, if science proves concepts from the revelations that predate its existence, will scientists accept the revelation as a source of Science?

 

My Question means:

 

1. There is a very complex Scientific Concept.

 

2. That concept requires capability maturity, systematic research and technological tools to be proved.

 

3. The concept was known by people who predate the development of the Scientific capability maturity, with no scientific tools.

 

4. These people say that they have received this knowledge from God through one of their illiterate fellow Bedouins as a Messenger from God .

 

5. Will that revelation be credited to the author of this knowledge i.e.(A Patent) as a source of knowledge to be included in the wide Body of Scientific discoveries?

 

 

Nur

[N.O.R.F]

^ I tried to insert the arabic text and highlight ' muusicuunaa' but could'nt do it :confused:

[Castro]

It would be interesting to see how the tafsiir of these verses was before this "expanding universe" theory has been proven astronomically.

 

Even more interesting is that an expanding universe is fact while evolution is the "ultimate lie"

 

Much of science isn't mentioned in the Quran as the holy book is not an encyclopedia of scientific discoveries and theories. In other words, not being mentioned in the Quran doesn't necessarily mean something is false.

 

For example, the age of the earth (4.4 billion years) is not directly mentioned in the Quran but some have attempted to "calculate" it from Quranic verses. You'll notice that one scientific calculation that can be used to age the earth is age of rocks or fossil records yet that same fossil record is unacceptable as proof of evolution.

 

Furthermore, the most accepted age for the universe is about 13.5 billion years which is not exactly (or even that close to) the 18.26 billion the author calculates. It could be argued that with better telescopes and more advanced astronomy we may one day prove that the universe is in fact 18.26 billion years old but do we really want to go down the path of digging for Quranic proof of every scientific theory?

[Johnny B]

It's always interesting how the interpretations evolve to stay up-to-date, a classical way of baking the result.

 

Here is another enjoyable evolving Ostrich theory of the earth shape.

 

 

The inherent desire to be intellectually dishonest just to shore up the Faith, is as divine as it gets.

[Castro]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

The inherent desire to be intellectually dishonest just to shore up the Faith, is as divine as it gets.

Unless someone is making money from their "faith", it's hard to see what they would gain from being intellectually dishonest. So it's hardly inherent as you claim.

 

What is inherent, however, is the search for meaning to life that eventually leads many to faith or, as in your case, the lack thereof.

 

You will also notice that the Quran and its interpretations may seem medieval, archaic and repetitive but you need to get beyond the language and into the meaning and essence. Until then, it will always be gobbledygook when you hear it. So read it for yourself. You'll be surprised what you find.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

people weak in faith have more incentive to be dishonest then money: Fear...

[Nur]

JB

 

You write:

 

 

The inherent desire to be intellectually dishonest just to shore up the Faith, is as divine as it gets

 

 

Saaxib,

 

Let us get basic, I mean intellectually:

 

 

Cells are the building blocks of living things.

 

Proteins are the building blocks of the cell.

 

The simplest cell has some 2000 different types of proteins.

 

We have some 500 to 1,000 amino acids in a protein

 

In living organisms, we use about 20 different amino acid types. They dont combine randomly to make up proteins, because each protein conforms to a given amino acid sequence which must be matched in precision.

 

The coding for this sequence is written in the DNA of the cell for proteins to be produced.

 

Evolution's monkey business claims that the first proteins where formed "Randomly by chance".

 

Probabilistic calculations, however, show :

 

For a single Protein's 500 amino acid sequence to be in the correct order, we have a probability of 1 in 10 raised to the power of 950 (Mathematicians consider a probability less than 1 in 10 raised to power of 50, as IMPOSSIBLE to occur)

 

If the age of the earth is in the order of 1.45 X 10 raised to the power of 17 Seconds or 4.6 Billion Years! , and if it takes a single second for a every toss of your probability coin, Lucie has a lotta explanations to do of where she has been last night!

 

 

"The structure of the DNA was discovered by two scientists named Francis Crick and James Watson. Despite being an evolutionist, Crick said that DNA could never have emerged by coincidence".

 

 

" When one examines the vast number of possible structures that could result from a simple random combination of amino acids in an evaporating primordial pond, it is mind-boggling to believe that life could have originated in this way. It is more plausible that a Great Builder with a master plan would be required for such a task ". Perry Reeves, a professor of chemistry

 

 

Now, Tell me saaxib, how you can defend such an absurdity if this is NOT the intellectual dishonesty you are talking about?

 

 

Nur

[Castro]

Originally posted by Nur:

Evolution's monkey business claims that the first proteins where formed

"Randomly by chance".

Source?

 

Probabilistic calculations, however, show :

 

For a single Protein's 500 amino acid sequence to be in the correct order, we have a probability of

1 in 10 raised to the power of 950

(Mathematicians consider a probability less than 1 in 10 raised to power of 50, as

IMPOSSIBLE

to occur)

 

If the age of the earth is in the order of 1.45 X 10 raised to the power of 17 Seconds or 4.6 Billion Years! , and if it takes a single second for a every toss of your probability coin, Lucie has a lotta explanations to do of where she has been last night!

Straw man?

 

 

"The structure of the DNA was discovered by two scientists named Francis Crick and James Watson. Despite being an evolutionist, Crick said that DNA could never have emerged by coincidence".

Source?

 

"When one examines the vast number of possible structures that could result from a simple random combination of amino acids in an evaporating primordial pond,

it is mind-boggling to believe that life could have originated in this way. It is more plausible that a Great Builder with a master plan would be required for such a task

".

Perry Reeves, a professor of chemistry

Is this the same Perry Reeves at Abilene Christian University? A little biased, ain't he?

[Johnny B]

Sheikh Nurow , with all due respect , it's not so exciting at all to re-educate every 'Mutawa' who happens to have read Science a la 'Harun Yahya' or and few ID arguments.

 

that is a task I leave to the other freethinkers of SOL, I've done my share and it went to my 'qaldan' brother , namely Norf, but if you insist and put your respectable 'cimamad' over my head to spill some basic amino acid beans, I'll have no choice but tell you to find the red-herring in your argument if you can , that is.

 

I rather not spill some advanced Amino acids before I get back from BORAMA , yes , you heard it, and unlike NGONGE, I tell everybody to be going to SOMALIA and not Somaliland.

[Nur]

Castro

 

Where? Mostly from basic biology and physics texts and from past discourses and excerpts from different scientific literature that i have read. If you are really interested to delve in this dialogue try the following from Amazon and join the discussion with passion.

 

1. Not By Chance: Shattering The Modern Theory Of Evolution.

 

2. Evolution, A Theory In Crisis

 

3. There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind.

 

 

Nur

[Castro]

^^^^ Saaxib Nur,

 

Sorry if I came across as dispassionate. It wasn't intentional as I find these topics to be fascinating.

 

Why is it inconceivable that the creator of everything, including a universe so vast, expanding and mysterious would have difficulty getting evolution in motion?

 

Anyhow, I understand the obsession fundamentalist Christians have with debunking evolution. It goes against their belief that earth is 6000 years old and that man and dinosaur walked the earth at the same time but Muslims have no such quandary.

 

So the more you attempt to explain the metaphysical to JB using the physical, the more he seems to fall off the edge.

 

If we insist on digging for science in the Quran, perhaps we should ponder the verse in the Quran that roughly says God made all life out of water. There's not a single form of life ever discovered (or likely to be) that is not based on water. In other words, the absence of water = the absence of life.

 

This is a never ending discussion by the way. Keep it going. I'll watch from the side lines.