Why Science Fails To Explain God

[Hassan_B]

Did you get the opportunity to read the biography of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)?

 

If not I highly recommend it. Marting Lings', "Muhammad," is a very easy to read good introduction and reads like a novel.

 

Bishop Rowan Williams is indeed a fair man.

[Sherban Shabeel]

I'll look out for it, thanks!

[Hassan_B]

This is how it looks like:

 

 

 

Enjoy

[Raamsade]

God is unnecessary hypothesis in science.

[Nur]

Johnny Boy

 

 

This topic can be of great benefit to Muslims, People of the Book, Agnostics and Atheists alike if we debate with a sincere pursuit to find the truth, after all, our collective fate depends on how we interpret the present and its body of knowledge that we have inherited either through revelation in the case of believers, be they Jews, Christians or Muslims, or science in the case of Agnostics and Atheists.

 

First of all, we need to agree on the definition of science. Because what we refer as science is different things to different people.

 

 

After a short research, here is what I found:

 

Britain's Science Council has spent the past year working out a new definition of the word 'science'. But how does it measure up to the challenge of intelligent design and creationism?

 

 

After one of year of debate, the council agreed on the following definition for Science ( Which can change ).

 

"Science is the pursuit of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence."

 

 

Key words:

 

1.Knowledge

2.Understanding

3. Natural

4. Social

5. World

6. Systematic

7. Methodology

8. Evidence

 

I tried to simplify the above the following way:

 

WHAT IS SCIENCE!

 

End objective is to find an EVIDENCE! ( Nature of this Evidence is left ambiguous)

By Means of METHODOLOGY

SYSTEMATIC in its application

Applied in NATURAL and SOCIAL WORLD

to Gain UNDERSTANDING of a phenomena

Which is accepted as KNOWLEDGE ( Nature of Knowledge is left ambiguous)

 

 

Which leads us to the following question:

 

What is Evidence?

 

definition of evidence?

 

Definition from Dictionary:

 

1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.

3. Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.

4. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.

5. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.

6. Law The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

 

 

What is Methodology?

 

1. a set or system of methods, principles, and rules for regulating a given discipline.

 

What is Systematic?

 

having, showing, or involving a system, method, or plan: a systematic course of reading; systematic efforts.

2. given to or using a system or method; methodical: a systematic person.

3. arranged in or comprising an ordered system: systematic theology.

4. concerned with classification: systematic botany.

5. pertaining to, based on, or in accordance with a system of classification: the systematic names of plants.

 

 

What is Natural?

 

2.existing in or formed by nature (opposed to artificial ): a natural bridge.

based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature: Growth is a natural process.

3. of or pertaining to nature or the universe: natural beauty.

4. of, pertaining to, or occupied with the study of natural science: conducting natural experiments.

5. in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land.

6. growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.

7. having undergone little or no processing and containing no chemical additives: natural food; natural ingredients. Compare organic (def. 11).

8. having a real or physical existence, as opposed to one that is spiritual, intellectual, fictitious, etc.

9. of, pertaining to, or proper to the nature or essential constitution: natural ability.

10. proper to the circumstances of the case: a natural result of his greed.

11. free from affectation or constraint: a natural manner.

12. arising easily or spontaneously: a natural courtesy to strangers.

13. consonant with the nature or character of.

14. in accordance with the nature of things: It was natural that he should hit back.

15. based upon the innate moral feeling of humankind: natural justice.

16. in conformity with the ordinary course of nature; not unusual or exceptional.

17. happening in the ordinary or usual course of things, without the intervention of accident, violence, etc.

 

 

What is SOCIAL?

 

pertaining to, devoted to, or characterized by friendly companionship or relations: a social club.

2. seeking or enjoying the companionship of others; friendly; sociable; gregarious.

3. of, pertaining to, connected with, or suited to polite or fashionable society: a social event.

4. living or disposed to live in companionship with others or in a community, rather than in isolation: People are social beings.

5. of or pertaining to human society, esp. as a body divided into classes according to status: social rank.

6. involved in many social activities: We're so busy working, we have to be a little less social now.

7. of or pertaining to the life, welfare, and relations of human beings in a community: social problems.

8. noting or pertaining to activities designed to remedy or alleviate certain unfavorable conditions of life in a community, esp. among the poor.

9. pertaining to or advocating socialism.

10. Zoology. living habitually together in communities, as bees or ants. Compare solitary (def. 8).

11. Botany. growing in patches or clumps.

12. Rare. occurring or taking place between allies or confederates.

 

What is UNDERSTANDING?

 

mental process of a person who comprehends; comprehension; personal interpretation: My understanding of the word does not agree with yours.

2. intellectual faculties; intelligence; mind: a quick understanding.

3. superior power of discernment; enlightened intelligence: With her keen understanding she should have become a leader.

4. knowledge of or familiarity with a particular thing; skill in dealing with or handling something: an understanding of accounting practice.

5. a state of cooperative or mutually tolerant relations between people: To him, understanding and goodwill were the supreme virtues.

6. a mutual agreement, esp. of a private, unannounced, or tacit kind: They had an understanding about who would do the dishes.

7. an agreement regulating joint activity or settling differences, often informal or preliminary in character: After hours of negotiation, no understanding on a new contract was reached.

8. Philosophy.

a. the power of abstract thought; logical power.

b. Kantianism. the mental faculty resolving the sensory manifold into the transcendental unity of apperception.

 

What is KNOWLEDGE?

 

 

acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition: knowledge of many things.

2. familiarity or conversance, as with a particular subject or branch of learning: A knowledge of accounting was necessary for the job.

3. acquaintance or familiarity gained by sight, experience, or report: a knowledge of human nature.

4. the fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth; clear and certain mental apprehension.

5. awareness, as of a fact or circumstance: He had knowledge of her good fortune.

6. something that is or may be known; information: He sought knowledge of her activities.

7. the body of truths or facts accumulated in the course of time.

 

 

Let us agree to base our discussion on the above definitions as much as possible, to narrow ambiguities that can get in the way of reaching true KNOWLEDGE, hence SCIENCE and from there we shall judge the authority Mr. SCIENCE claims to validate existence of GOD.

 

My task will be to show the invalidity of what is known as science to validate the existence of God.

 

Your task is to show that God does not exist through the above definition of science.

 

 

InshaaAllah , I will be back after your confirmation of this engagement.

 

 

Nur

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

Originally posted by Nur:

Hassan bro

 

Atheists have more arguments than the above, their most lethal lie is the evolution theory, which reduces life to chance, their logical fallacies are helped by Christianity which lost its way and Judaism which dropped Allah for the Gold.

 

Its high time Muslims get involved in this area of philosophical Dawa to free non Muslims from their bondage to phoney science and phoney religion to Islam, the only remaining true faith on earth.

 

Jazaakallahu khierna for the piece

 

Nur

You are a moderator, please refrain from bigotry: Judaism dropping allah for Gold...

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

I don't get why people always confuse to completely different things, science deals with how life come to be and faith deals with why. Also, evolution should not be seen to counteract creation, those vague descriptions in the holy books can apply to anything.

 

Originally posted by Sherban Shabeel:

1) yes

 

http://jmm.aaa.net.a u/articles/13459.htm

 

(you have to scroll down about to the middle)

 

So it seems the Holy Trinity is just a symbolic concept, God is still one and indivisible.

this is a very troubling of Christian doctrine, and your right many christian people seemed confused by this. Yet most of christian friends only speak jesus and never God. one guy even told me they don't believe in the trinity.

 

a Question for all Muslims: Why always use Allah even when speaking english? is Allah not just the Arabic word for God?

[Nur]

Naxar Nugaaleed

 

You write:

 

You are a moderator, please refrain from bigotry: Judaism dropping allah for Gold...

 

 

Thank you for the advice, as you know I can always use a good advice from fellow Nomads. But a clarification of why I said that Jews have dropped Allah for gold is due.

 

You see Naxar, Allah sent Prophet Moses to free Jews from bondage and torture of the tyrant Pharaoh. As you recall from the Quraan, or the Bible, as soon as the Jews crossed the sea to safety, they made up a calf statue made from their Jewelry to worship instead of Allah who saved them from Pharaoh. Love of wealth can corrupt a faith, any faith.

 

So, my statement was based on an Islamic account from holy Quraan which is not bigotry.

 

What is bigotry though is to defend Judaism, while attacking Islam and Islamists at will in many of your writings, along with implied clans that you hate ethnically. Bigot is someone who hates others for who they are. In my case I only hate people for what they do regardless of who they are, while you hate people for who they are regardless for what they do.

 

A case in point is your claim that Islamists in Somalia are overwhelmingly of one clan, which smells like utter bigotry to me. Here is what you have written:

 

... we all know that the overwhelming majority of theses islamist are from a single clan, will they not disrupt the balance of different Somali clans in both parliament and cabinet on which the entire TFG experiment depends?

 

Lastly, may I kindly remind you that the current topic is about Science, God and Atheism, if you have nothing to add, try not to divert discussion to side issues.

 

 

Nur

[Geel_jire]

Originally posted by Naxar Nugaaleed:

You are a moderator, please refrain from bigotry: Judaism dropping allah for Gold...

last time I checked this is a Muslim Somali website !

 

Jews ilaahay baa u cadhowday he described them as "Al-maqduubi calayhim" too bad the truth offends your delicate sensibilities.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

LOL, its worse then I thought, you are cloaking your bigotry with Islam now, forgive the ignorance but I was under the impression that Islam calls jews ahlu kitaab and not gold diggers but thats only me i guess. Also, you are present that quote of mine out of context. I thought i was stating an obvious fact that the Islamic courts were made mostly of one clan and wondering who you could integrate into government was formed with a formula of equality between Somali clans. To paint that into hatred of a Somali clan his a huge miss categorization to say the least. Also, i hope you don't take my encouragement of tolerance of others faiths among fellow muslims as an attack on Islam.

 

mr. Islam, the fact that solers are mostly muslims does not warrant bigotry.

[Nur]

Naxar

 

You write:

 

forgive the ignorance but I was under the impression that Islam calls jews ahlu kitaab and not gold diggers but thats only me i guess

 

 

Forgiven brother, yes Jews and Christians are people of the book, our cousins in faith, and if you have read the thread above, I added them with the believers in Allah on our side against the fallacies of the Agnostics and Atheists which is the topic at hand.

 

Allah Says in Surah Aaraaf, Verse 148:

 

And the people of Musa (Moses) made in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of a calf (for worship). It had a sound (as if it was mooing). Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to the way? They took it for worship and they were Zalimun (wrong-doers).

 

My complaint against Christians was that their scriptures have been corrupted to the point that they became a mockery to common sense and those calling themselves as Scientists, which gave an easy logical superiority to Atheists against organized faith, while our other Cousins, the Jews, instead of defending the Monotheism faith we share, made wealth collection their vocation since the Exodus from Egypt to this day, leaving only Muslims to hang on the common Abrahamic faith that binds all of our three faiths.

 

 

The fact that you believe Somalis should be balanced along clan lines is indeed tribalism brother, to see Islam rise in a region and then cry tribalism is not healthy brother, it shows an ailment in your heart that needs to be cured, and that cure is found in Islam and love of Allah SWT. And in case you still have doubts, I am not using Islam to Hate Jews, or any other nation or clan, I hate actions people do that are not in line with my beliefs, not their persons.

 

Now, do you have anything to add to the topic of Atheism, Science and God?

 

 

Nur

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Nur:

Jahnny B.

 

Sorry to have missed your discussion with Norf on this topic. But since you are very much enthused to this topic, could you elaborate more on how

Atheism relies on more solid ground than Evolution

, since you have decoupled the two?

 

 

Nur

Sheikh Nurow, i've no recollection making such a claim.

 

Regarding your invitation to exchange over Science and why it can / can not validate God, i think we've covered that many a times without coming to a better understanding, unless you define GOD as you defined Science we'll likely get nowhere.

[Nur]

Jahnny B.

 

If you can not recollect, let me help you.

 

you wrote: Atheism is as old as Theism, while the scietific theory of Evolution is around 200 years old.

 

They're two different things altogetehr.

 

 

You write:

 

Regarding your invitation to exchange over Science and why it can / can not validate God, i think we've covered that many a times without coming to a better understanding, unless you define GOD as you defined Science we'll likely get nowhere.

 

 

Saaxib, you threw your hat in this thread, and I did not participate in your old thread with others on this issue, but my intention for engaging you was to help you find God before you find yourself face to face with Him after you die.

 

Since any argument has two sides, I helped define science. It would be fair to suggest that you, As an Atheist, use science to disprove God's existence.

 

lastly, for the record:

 

As a rational man ( as opposed to superstitious man) Is there any remote possibility that God exists?

 

If No, can you tell us how you have reached this conclusion?

 

If yes, what is your plan B?

 

 

Nur

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

Originally posted by Nur:

 

The fact that you believe Somalis should be balanced along clan lines is indeed tribalism brother, to see Islam rise in a region and then cry tribalism is not healthy brother, it shows an ailment in your heart that needs to be cured, and that cure is found in Islam and love of Allah SWT.

 

Nur

Am afraid thats not so, its a pragmatic answer to problem that has caused Africa's second longest civil war. That you would interpret an attempt to "balance" something as bias or bigotry is a glaring misunderstanding of these concepts and reality. Also attacking others faiths is a sign of lack of confidence in your own.

 

Now as for the topic of this discussion, science and faith strive to answer too different questions, why most there be a conflict?

More then that, the methods used to arrive at scientific answers and that of faith is different, one requires observable facts and the other simply requires what you heart, soul, mind or whatever you wanna call, will accept. Its like taking to different roads and assuming you will end at the same end point.

[Raamsade]

Originally posted by Naxar Nugaaleed:

Now as for the topic of this discussion, science and faith strive to answer too different questions, why most there be a conflict?

Both science and religion try to explain pretty much the same thing. They're in a fierce competition for the allegiance of humanity.

 

Science explains how the world works through materialistic/natura listic prism. Whereas religion uses God and divine laws as the ultimate cause of everything - past, present and future. The only area of dissimilarity is the "afterlife." Science offers no opinion regarding what happens after we die; religion offers salvation.

 

Science and religion disagree on just about everything regarding history of mankind and how the world works. But there can only be one side that has it right. Obviously, the fact that only one side can be right necessitates friction if not outright conflict. You can't dismiss this "conflict" because we have history of religion persecuting science for fear of what science has to say. Science contradicts religious claims, pure and simple.

 

The suspicion and vexation felt by the faithful against science is, in a way, understandable. After all science has been continuously gaining ground against religion in the past few centuries. Just a mere 400 hundred years ago everything was explained by appeal to God. The ancient Greeks who we associate with rationality used to believe that the movement of the sun across the sky was caused by God. They believed Apollo, after waking up every morning, would get on his chariot and drag the sun across the sky thereby explaining the movement of the sun, sunrise and sunset. Other inexplicable observations that the ancient attributed to God included lightning, thunders and fire. After a while these disparate believes coalesced into elaborate system of believe we today call religion that offered to provide comprehensive answers to just about everything unfathomable to the ancients. And it has been like that ever since until the scientific method gained strong foothold in Europe about 300-400 years ago. From then on science has progressively rolled back the sphere of religion into mere personal matter. Religion plays almost no role in the liberal democracies of today.

 

The more and more science offers explanations about who we are, where we came from and how our world works, the less and less there is for religion to explain. The result is cognitive dissonance among the faithful. On one hand, they can't reject science since its progressive fruits are all around and can not be denied by any sensible person. By the same token religion becomes increasingly irrelevant and contradicted by the findings of science. The dissonance ultimately leads to irrational outbursts against science and reason. Science is attacked by the faithful on the flimsiest grounds and sometimes without any rational or factual basis. The relentless attack on the well established scientific theory of evolution is one such example.