AU Road Map for Peace in Somalia

[Xoogsade]

Originally posted by GJ_Goate:

quote:Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

^^

^^That's a start though. Adeer Yey and his warlord goverment are part of the conflict. They have followers, international and regional support! If one is serious in resolving somali conflict through reconciliation, one must be practical in the way he or she formulates his/her argument.

 

You know it takes two to tango. In other words, when you reconcile/negotiate with someone they must be willing to do the same with you. I think this is the part you and Baashi haven't thought long about. You assume that everybody wants to negotiate, reconcile and liquidate some of their held power. For example, with regards to Yeey and his supporters, they are intent on using their international support and Ethiopian backing to attempt to destroy and humilate their opponents. Five years ago, one his hardcore supporters told one of my relatives that they would CIA and others to subdue Wadaads and destroy their powers as their place was only in the Masjid. These are type of people you are dealing with. How can you reconcile with a person who doesn't want to? Ina Yeey has always made his choice the gun. This is the same man that stood in the false parliament and declared that he would wage war against all religous men, take their wealth and remove them from very insitution in Somalia. Of course his supporters will blindly follow what he screams. The condition of this man is that anyone who wants to negotiate with him must recognize him, lay down their weapons and approach him smaller man than him. Who's going to meet those demands.

 

 

There are also the other warlords who compromise the anti terror or fighting Islam alliance, I tell you those men only understand the gun and the likes of those will only be subdued throught that process. What is there to compromise with them? AH, you can sell 50 wadaads only this year? You can only set up 5000 chechpoints or rape less women? Those men are xawayaan saxiib and they will be treated and subdued like the xawayaan they are, if they don't repent and stop the harm they are doing. Several of them including the warlord/false mayor of Muqdisho wants to talk with his rivals after they inflicted many losses on his men. Thus reconciliation and negotiation has to be sincere. It will be useless if the same old warlords are returned to power and are allowed to do as they please.

Thousands of Somalis can't be wasted over 2 years fighting against warlords and Ethiopia only for the same people to be returned to power under the slogan of reconcialition.

Somalis have had dozens of peace meetings and reconcialition with no avail. That is because the same bunch of criminals have been appeased each time under the guise of them representing their clans.Most people aren't against reconciliation as such, but they are against appeasing Ethiopians and warlords through the backdoor via reconcialition slogans. This is perhaps what our good friend Baashi reads as "advocating for more violence" and " killing maato". Although one could say Nur Cade is perhaps making more of a sincere effort to negotiate, unlike the other men who compromise the T.F.G......

Spot on saxib. Allah yacizak bro.

[Baashi]

Morning fellas, so far my friends across the aisle have no substantive argument to table. It looks like the opposition to settle the conflict now is wall to wall. I have a hunch that the refusal to acknowledge the need for peaceful resolution to the current crisis is not so much about opposition against the reconciliation itself per se but the personality that’s fielding the proposal.

 

Very well. Let me put this other naughty toddler to his crib. This one goes out to my man Ayoubi and his newly found vocabulary that comes in doubles. No one is making excuse for anyone! Are you kidding me?

 

Ayoub awoowe you and I know this fight is not about Islam nor is it about nationalism. I’m sure you are more intelligent than folks that convinced themselves that the civil war debut last year when Tigre mercenaries invaded the national seat.

 

The Somali civil war is all about tribalism. It is about exploiting grievances. It is about mobilizing folks who you share ancestry. Awoowe Somalia is held hostage by negative tribalism. Common boys! Tell it as it is. Sure there are gazillions of unintended consequences but first and foremost the fight is about what clan gets what national pie.

 

Clans are fighting because? The answer is for political dominance and resources. Lower Juba is “the” second most productive province of the country -- second to Lower Shabelle. Whoever controls the province will have a bargaining advantage at the table.

 

Here is where Inna Yussuf and his cohorts come into equation. While they are not from there, their fellow clan members call the area their home. They share the city with other Somalis namely Afmadow folks. The lower Juba province has about 113 townships. The majority are ****** and *****. There are Baajuuni, Bantu, ******, ******, and ******. Their primary occupation are fisheries, farming, and livestock (primarily raising cattle). Gedo boys have no single township their folks can call home.

 

What are these “native” things you seem to be so fixated? Who are the natives you keep referring to? These folks I mentioned above have no disputes btw them. What sub clan resides in what township, district, or farming area is common knowledge.

 

Awoowe the fact that the territory of some clans span from Ras Caseyr to Ras Kambooni that in itself doesn’t accord them the designation of “double natives”. It just so happened that there is one single clan that lives different parts of the country. So much of double native talk!

 

This one goes to all the pseudo nationalists,

 

Bros nationalism and Islam has nothing to do with it. First and foremost the fight is btw Somalis (Tigre is after fact -- a secondary disturbances). Secondly all the contestants are Muslims in their faith orientation. To frame the debate nationalists vs. anti-nationalists or as the Kelligii Muslim of the site would like us to belief Muslims vs. Murtads is a fairytale at its best.

 

The tragedies in the nineties shape the psychic of whole new generation. Looting and other transgression carried out during nineties has not been forgotten. It is grievances that need to be addressed. In principle one should be prepared to admit the necessity in bringing closure to that dark chapter and all other dark chapters that proceeded or followed what happened that period.

 

[ February 01, 2008, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar ]

[xiinfaniin]

Salaam Alaykum ya jamaacah.

 

Time is not my side today. But this is a good thread really, and my camping in it has paid good dividends. I owe two responses to saaxibul qarni (Horn) and the racil ghanam (the Goat man)! It seems to me goat mans’ argument represents that of brother Kashafa and Xoogga, and perhaps other nomads who chose to be silent. And Horn’s argument reflects that of brother Che and Paragon. If the proponents of reconciliation-now approach, with no conditions attached, do justice to those two arguments then I believe we would get closer to succeeding to propel the wheels of peace forward albeit in a very limited scope…

 

And do justice we shall!

 

Notes on the margin :

 

For those still dwelling in the lowest squalid locales of this thread, please strive to contribute in a meaningful way. Check this: no one has thus far occupied the summit of this thread for neither Baashi nor I have convinced you to embrace what Baashi billed the only practical way out of Somalia’s current mess. On the other hand, despite the puritan talk, and the repeated references to the ongoing Ethiopian aggression and thulmi, no one from the other side of this discussion has yet made strong case as to why he or she thinks continuing the current Xamar fight is the only way to regain our lost dignity and nationhood.

 

 

edit:

Baashi, let Ayoubi win that type of argument. The double natives is just meaningless, and does hardly deserve to be honored with response.

[Gabbal]

Baashi give it a rest adeer.

 

That every single individual in this topic has come out to speak against you should manifest as something of an epiphany to you but clearly this is not case. Either of two reasons can your behavior be explained: (1.)you are dense and this negatively impacts your ability to comprehend or (2.) your objective was never honest discourse. Knowing your history I am of the second opinion so I will not waste too much thing in summarizing what you have brought to the table and the definite response given by the plethora of responders.

 

Baashi: Accept the reconciliation now that my adeer is facing the last months of his mandate!

 

Responders: No!

 

^^Does that seem like rocket science? Simple is it not?

 

Xiin-

 

I await your response adeer!

[Laba-X]

Geed baa waa godin laamihiisa lagu goynayo u gabyey oo yiri,Godinyahay, gobolkay hadii aadan ahayn ima garaacdeene. Xaalada Soomaaliya maanta is not much different. Inagaa u yeeranay bey ila tahay.

 

A famous Urdu poem goes something along the lines of:

 

Mujhe to apno ne luta,

gairo mein kahan dum tha,

meri kashti dubi wahan,

Jahan pani kam tha

 

A rough translation of this would be:

 

I have been defeated by my own

where did the outsiders have courage?

my boat has sunk there

where the water was shallow

[Baashi]

^Absolutely. Xiin look how the 2 balled man hit the nail on the head.

 

Waan ku yara haraaday threadkan. Qaraabo ogaada raggu waa wada hadlay ee lama dirririn. Nin ba abaartii iyo sida ay la tahay uun buu halakan ka qoray. Sidaa haa loo fahmo.

[Gabbal]

Here is where Inna Yussuf and his cohorts come into equation.

While they are not from there, their fellow clan members call the area their home.

They share the city with other Somalis namely Afmadow folks. The lower Juba province has about 113 townships. The majority are ****** and *****. There are Baajuuni, Bantu, ******, *****, and ******. Their primary occupation is fisheries, farming, and livestock (primarily raising cattle).

Gedo boys have no single township their folks can call home.

Ayoub I will touch on your double natives input. In one of our Kismaayo debates, Xiin has used against me "I was born in the city, you were not" and I simply asked him "was your father born there" and he failed to respond.

 

The truth of the matter is that Kismaayo, the city, was burgeoning with those Baashi calls "his clan" in the 80's and late 70's. This is primarily as a result of the Dabo-dheer drought inwhich thousands of affected drought victims in Nugaal and Bari were airlifted by the late Siad to populate the fertile southern regions. These fertile regions have the ability to house and feed the whole of the Somali race. Waa xaqiiqo adeer. This fact coupled with the American interest in the Kismaayo sea-port, at that time sparsely settled, is what led Siad Barre to populate those drought victims en mass in Kismaayo.

 

What Baashi continuously evokes as his "sense of ownership" was an humanitarian act undertaken to give his suffering people a chance to recoup. This is akin to refugees housed in Dhadhaab now claiming ownership of the land in the state of Kenya! This is the political card he resorts to despite the fact that nationally, Somalis became more interconnected than any other period in history and that I, who was born in Mogadishu, cannot be called a "native" any more than an individual of Aydiid's clan who came to Mogadishu after or during the civil war.

 

Well how do, then, the Gedo clans as a whole come into the Kismaayo picture you ask? Simple really, it was because of General Morgan! But even before that while Kismaayo was a Somali city governed by a Somali president, the majority of the greatest and most wealthiest businesspeople in Kismaayo were all from the Gedo clans. I read with some laughter Baashi saying this clan did not have single business to its name in that city and that all of what was contained in Kismaayo belonged to his clan. Ask him, however, if he forgot that out of Kismaayo's top tier businesspeople only Uunlaaye was from his clan. Did it miraculously escape him that people such as Cascaseey, Xareed and Bashiir Yarrow, reer Sugulle, Hussein Wayne; people who had owned the hotels, the real estate, controlled the trade routes between Kismaayo to Tanzania, were all from the Gedo clans or that some of the few governors, Suggule, appointed by the Italians in Kismaayo were from the Gedo clans!

 

As for why this clan now majority populates Kismaayo, the story is really simple and one Baashi and Xiin can tell better than any of us. Of course it starts with Col Cumar Jees declaring war on their clan as "vagrants brought to the land by Siad Barre", then Morgan going to Gedo to call for help, receiving the help and being crowned King of Kismaayo, than betraying the Gedo clans in the middle of the Ethiopia-Al Itihad war in Gedo sensing weakness and reinforced by mass migration from Puntland regions to Kismaayo at that time, then being chased out in 1998, one full decade ago! So you see Ayoub, the man Baashi and his reconciliation are a farce. What he is advocating for is pure revenge, revenge for the actions undertaken to put a lid on the aggression of Morgan and his clansmen. If he was for reconciliation, common sense would say he would be a bit more honest on the issues he feels directly affect him. This is where a man's credibility is made or undone.

 

p.s. Oh and Baashi, some of the townships in the Lower Jubba that have always been populated by Gedo pastoralists span Beerxaani to Salagle. Igu qabso wakaase.

 

[ February 01, 2008, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar ]

[xiinfaniin]

^^Horn, kindly remind me that debate, or please dig some references to it. My bashfulness would not allow me to say you are lying!

 

Please dont be like Ayoub who, and i can say this with great confidence, blatantly lied to win a cyber argument!

 

Hadba meel bay ka tifqaysaa...

[Gabbal]

Xiin, that is irrelevant to the greater topic but if I can so remind you, it was a topic in which young Dhubad or Abaadir, if I am not mistaken, also joked "all our fathers were born somewhere else" or something of that nature.

 

Either way that is minor to the greater argument Xiin-oow!

[Che -Guevara]

First get this:

 

On the political level , there are three components in the current Somali divide in my mind.

 

1- TFG and its supporters--- i.e. Puntland and some parts of the south.

2- Courts and its supporters

3- Secessionists and those who support it (yes I believe in a holistic approach instead of let-the-south-get-its-acts-together-first nonsense)

Xiin...On your first point, the TFG doesn't enjoy the support of the average Puntlander. But I give you the Puntland elite on the other hand has put all their eggs in one basket by endorsing the TFG, something the average Puntlander niether cares for nor understands. Puntlanders have more immediate concerns of deteriorating security, inflation, corruption and LA debacle. No one could definitively argue if the average person in the part of Somalia supports the mandate and the actions of TFG. Like the rest of the Somali people, Puntlanders are simply passive audience to this sad saga. Please do inform me and correct me if there are any prominent traditional leaders, Culimada, Ganasatada, academics, and former politicians that vigoriously and unequivocally promote the TFG agenda.

 

And on your second point, the supporters of the courts (and I'm talking about the average perosn that sided with courts instead the warlords during 06 war) simply want peace. Majority were hardly interested in settling scores,or perpuating the civil war. And as for the political and military wings of the courts, these are divided into three entities first being moderates, clan oppurnists, and the Al-Shabaab. The moderates are willing to sit with any entity that's sincerely interested bringing peace to Somalia. The clan oppurtunists on the other hand are simply interested in keeping the ill-gotten wealth that they accumulated over the years.And they will throw their support behind whoever they believe would allow them to keep that Xaraan. The Al-Shabaab who were the muscle of the courts are more troublesome, and I give you harder to reason with since their fight and inspiration go beyond the Somali conflict. Ceyrow made a mistake by announcing the Somali war as part of global Jihad. Of course the question here out of these who will be willing to sit down the TFG, the answer is none of them. And this is for good reason since the Ethiopia is occupying Somalia, and the so called Somali goverment barely does anything without the approval of Gen Gabre. This entity must enjoy a degree of independence before it could think about sitting the oppisition. The oppisition might as well passed them, and directly deal with the leadership of the occupying force.

 

And for the secessionists, I agree with you. There are/will be part of equation. For Somalia to enjoy, they too must be at the bargaining table.Whether they like or not, their future is tied to Xamar,and the "south must its problems" will hardly get anywhere.

 

Somalis have grievances against each other--some grievances go back to the inception of the republic itself.

They do have greivances against each other, no question about that. But here is few facts we must first consider . There is no major conflicts along tribal lines as of today. If there are any skirmishes, it is usually intra-tribal. It is never between the four major tribes in the country. The civil have taught few things to every Somali tribe. For instance, my family have lived in Beled Weyne for over 70 yrs. It is no secret Beled Weyne saw its shares of horrors in the early 90s where thousands of Somalis from D-block specially OGs were murdered or ethnically cleansed. Karma being the B*tch it is, those who murdered their brothers were given any equally horrendous treatment by Aidid and his men. The major sublcan in Hiiraan understood it was their the best interest to live in peace with their neighbors, and to welcome back their brothers. Now Beledweyne is vibrant town where all of tribes live together peacefully. And my family still have properties and relatives there. Our properties are returned to us,and my relatives live without of being killed or raped simply there are ethnically Puntlanders. This is something that's hardly unique to Beledweyne. Another interesting fact to consider is economic factor.People understand if they need to prosper they must be able to move freely. My family members on so many occasion travel from Galkayo to Beledweyne. No asks them what group they belong or where they are coming from. If they face any danger, it is from usaul bandits. The people in Somalia have moved, and that doesn't they don't want past grievances to addressed, but they have realised they need each other whether they like or not. It is ones in the diasporo who are still bitter about their experiences from the past conflicts or are bent on exploitating their people are perpuate the idea that Somalis can't reconcile and move forward.

 

If you insist though I despise it primarily because it gave (yes it’s policies did) Ethiopia a political and military advantage she never dreamt to have.

The TFG for one don't have the credibility nor enjoy the support of people to bring any meanigful solution. They are also not genuine about the call for reconcialation. Just listen

to Yeey interviews and you would know why they aren't interested in peace. They are just interested in being the top dog, and eliminating all oppisition parties. They are not also independent enough meaning it is Ethiopia that's in the driver seat. Ethiopia wants Somalia the way it is, divided, marginilized and poor. I understand is doing what any country in her position would have done, but I don't how letigimazing her actions and encouring her stooges would bring any solution. It is afterall interested in keeping the status quo. Why would she risk loosing that advantage by allowing Somalis to mend their problems. I'm agianst the TFG exactly cuz there is no solution as long as they are in power. If there is, please let's hear.

 

 

LooooooooL@Ayoub...I'm young man whose simplistic views don't appreciate the complexity of the Somali conflicts. Of course, I'm also being dishonest about not being tribalistic. What can I say, I know nothing.

[Baashi]

I won't argue with ****** when it comes to Kismayo. It won't just do. I can put up all other craps spewed in this forum. I just can't talk about kismaayo with galti. I should have heeded the advice kindly given to me by my fella hommie. It is really sickening!!!

 

***FACT CHECKING***

 

Affected Somalis in the said draught had been resettled in Lower Shabelle districts of Kunturwaareey and Baraawe. Likewise Sablaale district in Middle Juba had been designated as a brand new settlement for the affected folks. Togdheer, Sool, and Mudug were the areas that had been hit hard by the draught. This is a common knowledge.

 

As to Beerxaani my good gracious when had this famous town been transferred to galti. Are you fooling yourself? What's wrong with Somalis? This is sickening. I mean to go that far -- indha adagaa!!

 

As to Cascaseey, late M. S. Barre’s kid brother awoowe I remember when he was transferred, as a warehouse guard for INJI. He was then promoted by Governor Shire Suudi (his fellow clansman) to become INJI warehouse supervisor.

 

Cascaseey hotel was a government premise (xarunta xisbiga) -- the lot on which the party center stands on had been confiscated ( from Ibrahim Uunlaaye! Ask any reer Kismayo and they would tell you the whole nine yard about this incident.

 

Ilmo Yarow, self made renowned businessmen (no corruption from gov handout), are true sons from Kismayo. Suggule is a transferred soldier. His kid was my third grade classmate in Farjano elementary school. Hek why don't we mention Ali Waskhaan from Hargeisa or for that matter reer Waberi from Boorame hek even Qummane Qashin from Zeylac (owned a famous range near Jammame and wa neighbor of ours)-- their kids were my classmates both public school and private English schools. Civil servants used to come and settle the city but by and large folks who sell milk folks who raise cattle folks who populate the city are from known clan.

 

[ February 01, 2008, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar ]

[N.O.R.F]

If I may.

 

The current situation is a shambles and I think we all agree with that. Skimming through this thread I think I can sum up the positions held by our heavyweight nomads. Those positions being a) negotiate with the TFG b) no never and c) any negotiation must have the right conditions for the opposition. I'm of the opinion that the latter is the best position to take.

 

Considering our acknowldgement that one of the problems in Somalia is how the TFG has conducted itself over the years and especially over the past year, calling for negotiation with them, without any sort of consensus between all parties in relation to the occupation and how best to be rid of it, would only be termed as political nievaty. Therefore, any peace process must have the right consensus amongst all parties before it gets under way.

 

Having said that, as Che pointed out, is the TFG really prepared for peace? Is Yeey really a peace broker? I highly doubt it.

 

A consensus or nothing!

[Ducaysane]

Baashe/xiin.

nimankaan reer Gedo markii ay xamar dawlada ka ahaayeen Kismaayo idun kuma haysane. maxaad hada adinku ka rabtaan. adinkaaga ceelkii weynaa joogee

 

Walee in aadnan qofna wax u ogoleyn

Baashe do you mean Sugulle wiil uu owoow u yahay baad isku class ahaydeen. plus sugule wuxuu dhalay waxaa ugu yar 60 yrs old qof jira

[Allamagan]

Baashi, quite honestly, what sickening is all the crap you constantly spewing out in this forum and all that degradation of anyone whose views different than yours and what even more sicking is this overprotective system here that lets you to get away with it

[Che -Guevara]

Waxaan murugu waaye. Rag dhulkooda ka heesto isku dagaalaya, luuq aan leh iyo kan anaa leh. Waxaad fara ku heesiin ma jidho ee dib iskugu laabta.