The government gets its way- Gains more than the 139 majority:

[Sky]

rahima, youre trying to tell us you have familial ties with reer puntland. reer boorama aad sheegaysay meeye? next time youre gonna say your mother comes from NFD. what a joke.

[Gabbal]

Sky_Africa Rahima abti baa u tahay ee ka xishood. Her father is ree Borameed because he was raised in Borama by his Borameed mother.

 

Hey, by the way, wasn't Caydiids mother/grandmother from Yeeys sub-sub clan? I don't know but I think I heard there was some connection na'mean. [Wink] Laakiin Soomalidu waxbay buunbuunisaa. Could be a lie na'mean.

Caydiid (alaha ha u naxariisto) is a grandfather to I and I haven't heard of any connections he has to any of the sub-clans besides Wagardhac (his brothers and earlier inter-marriages)

[Rahima]

Not possible you say Sky, little you know dear.

 

Perhaps you belong to one of those families that go around in circles, you marry your first maternal cousin, your sister marries your first paternal cousin, your parents are first cousins. I can understand how families such as mine would be very confusing, so I’ll break it down for you.

 

My mothers family are what you so like to term as reer PL, my fathers are in Boorama (his mother was a native, which makes half of his extended family what we like to term reer Boorama), but the roots of my fathers family are from Southern Mudug. There, does that make sense now dear Sky.

 

Now run along and play with them toy planes .

[Sky]

nope that doesnt make sense. u have gone all the way to somalia to visit ur family and u didnt bother to visit ur reer abti in puntland. ceeb! laakiin ok i see what u mean. u do have to admit, you confused this brotherman.

 

well you guessed wrong about my family. according to hornafriques logic, you would be my habaryar. my mother is not what one would call reer puntland. hooyadeey waa shiqaal. a clan of quran teachers. while my father is a reer puntland born in dire dawa, raised by his reer djibouti mother.

 

- now if u excuse me, i have a rendez-vous with my toy planes -

[xiinfaniin]

Rahima, walaal dad magan ah baad iiga sheekeyneysaa! Do you think I could be magan for reer Miyi in my own house? Magaalada waxbaan ku lahaa haddana magan kuma noqon-karo!

 

I would rather live in dignity in the prairies of the Midwest, sister. And what statistical data do you inquire, sister, to prove that Kismayo, Marka, and Bravo are in the hands of hoodlum gangs? What reports should one produce to convince you that Xamar has indeed been infected by the plague of land-grab.

 

You resolved (it now seems) to over-look quite conveniently my declared appreciation and acknowledgement for those who laboriously worked hard to build their lives as you needlessly repeat answered questions. Or may be you don’t take yes for an answer, I wonder.

[Rahima]

What reports should one produce to convince you that Xamar has indeed been infected by the plague of land-grab.

The burden of proof is on you brother, I did not make the statement, you did. Like I said even if not statistics (as I can appreciate that this will be extremely difficult if not impossible), at least a credible piece of information highlighting that this problem (which is xaraam and should be fought-that as a Muslim I agree with completely, it’s is disgusting and should be dealt with) is still the majority case.

 

You resolved (it now seems) to over-look quite conveniently my declared appreciation and acknowledgement for those who laboriously worked hard to build their lives as you needlessly repeat answered questions. Or may be you don’t take yes for an answer, I wonder.

That wasn’t my stance, I acknowledge your appreciation brother , but allow me to give you two scenarios, one I disagree with and one I agree with:

 

1.Mogadishu is inhabited by many people who have worked hard for their livelihoods in a legitimate form, but yet there still do remain a small number of people living on xaraam and it is this which should be fought to restore justice, or

 

2.Mogadishu is full of people living on the looted properties of rightful owners who fled during the invasion, but there are folks who have worked hard for theirs.

 

Basically in my opinion, the first is reality (which is what I agree with) and the second is how you paint the case (which I disagree with). One (the latter-yours) makes the continued looting as the majority case and the other (the former) acknowledged the problem exists but certainly not to the degree of been a widespread case.

 

Like I said just because many people have moved to the Diaspora it does not mean that they have lost their properties, often enough it is been looked after for them.

 

 

Sky,

 

nope that doesnt make sense. u have gone all the way to somalia to visit ur family and u didnt bother to visit ur reer abti in puntland. ceeb! laakiin ok i see what u mean. u do have to admit, you confused this brotherman.

You’re confusing yourself walaahi , which one is it, “nope it doesn’t make sense†or you see what I mean?

 

The other issue is, can I and my mother not of have seen her family in Mogadishu? or are you still stuck on the old days where supposedly reer PL could not step foot in Mogadishu. I did have the pleasure of meeting my maternal aunts and uncles, in Mogadishu (don’t keel over with shock now ). Our choice was either Gaalkacyo or Boorama, we chose Boorama.

 

But at the end of the day Sky, the tribes of my parents should not matter, first and foremost I am Muslim then Somali so I find it odd when you make stup!d statements like I am anti-PL (even more favourable to this than you is our dearly beloved and somewhat me thinks confused on this brother Mobb). I remember a few months back after asking him to provide proof that I was as he loves to accuse me, he never provided it, apologised and we moved on. Now it’s back again, with you at his side and once again I ask you to provide us all with proof. I mean it isn’t very credible or manly to make accusations and not provide proof.

 

See with you I could easily prove that you are steered the way which you claim of me, the qabiilist way- you did use “hutu†or was that another Sky? :confused: -I could provide so many other proofs, but I cannot be bothered not to mention I technically am not making an accusation .

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Originally posted by Rahima:

^ Brother, you state:

 

quote:

---

Xamar is full of people who are occupying properties that are not theirs and as such it is an occupied city.

So i ask, how is that you have come to know that xamar is "full" (the point which i am contesting here, you are stating that it is extremely widespread and is the majority case) of people who are occupying property which is not theirs?

 

I mean have their been studies done?, statistics concluded? By what measurements (aside from the somali grapevine and the ever so wonderful media of ours

) have you come to conclude this?

Raxiima, sister, you've been to Xamar, and you don't have to deny the issue of "occupation" of certain properties by certain people in Xamar. It is so obvious few of the property-occupiers can even refute or refuse not to acknowledge--some even xalaalizing it and as though thinking it is their God-given houses. Of course, some houses dad baa u haayo dadkii ka qaxay, and most of those dadka haayo waa dadkii dariska la ahaa ama kasi jiray, but the houses dadka "kooytada" live is different. Let me tell you this episode that happened to me while I was there.

 

I and some old friends I grew up with, were taking some pictures of our destroyed xaafad, what is now known as Bermuuda. While taking the pictures at that eerily and deserted xaafad, where few souls live, this lady was asking us some basic questions. When we started explaining and told her that we used to live the xaafad, and that house is ours, this house was that, and that house was this...suddenly, this obvious agitating man appeared from no where, immediately saying we would stop photographing or else "canshuur" baa la idinka qaadaa.

 

When we told him we are the old ciyaal xaafad, the guy with his madness started uttering these words I won't forget: Wax aad leedihiin ayaa iska yar ee ka dhaqaaqa meesha hadii kale... I hadn't even waited him to finish the sentence. However, some of the friends ila socday got mad because their "qabiil rule" that xaafad and I shouldn't heed that madman's words. I beseeched them that we should leave immediately, for I didn't come all the way from Canada nin waalan Bermuuda hilfaha ha igu laabo. Macaleesh, no way. I told him, yes adigaa xaafada dhan leh, do whatever you want with it and immediately left.

 

Marka dad saas camal ayaa iska jiro, and I can tell you, they aren't few.

[Rahima]

you don't have to deny the issue of "occupation" of certain properties by certain people in Xamar.

 

Have I :confused: ? I thought it was I who wrote:

 

1.Mogadishu is inhabited by many people who have worked hard for their livelihoods in a legitimate form, but yet there still do remain a small number of people living on xaraam and it is this which should be fought to restore justice,

Am I mistaken here, or is that admission of a problem? I don’t see how such a statement translates as denial.

 

Like Xiin, MMA how can we come to such a conclusion? I mean it happens, but it’s ridiculous for us to even say that every second house is looted and lived upon wrongfully, let alone full of. I believe in relation to the looting the sum of these houses(rightfully owned) far surpasses.

 

The other thing is brother, you have been to Xamar also, without going to the other extreme are you now going to tell me that the majority of the people and home owners are not legitimately there (that of every one hundred homes, ugu yaraan 51 are attained in ways of xaraam)? Are you going to tell me that the problem is so widespread that almost every house and property is looted? This is what is been contested here. I am not arguing that this is a problem-even one home wrongfully attained is wrong, is a problem and should be fought. But this argument of OH XAMAR HAS BEEN LOOTED and almost everything (which can be loosely translated as “fullâ€) is built on xaraam is nothing but BS.

 

This disagreement brother is on a technicality really, usage of words and over-exaggeration. How many people did you meet in Xamar who owned their homes legitimately and then compare it to those who did not? Can we then say it is the majority, or use words such as “full�

 

We can speak up against wrong, we can try to make change, but we don’t have to do injustice whilst at it. There is no need for us to attack and tarnish the many good people of the city because by making statements such as the city is “full†of looters, in essence we are saying the majority of the people are evildoers.

 

Last, is not Bermuda not one of the unsafe areas of Xamar (if not the most)? Bermuda my brother is not indicative of the general case in Mogadishu, nor was your experience. It happens (sadly), but we can't paint it as the broad instance.

[xiinfaniin]

Rahima,

Your acknowledgement of the existence of this problem is good enough for me. The degree to which it exists can reasonably be a point of contention. But, sister, I am with the second scenario of the two!

 

MM, right on.

 

Power to you if you dared to go to that city, I may add. You must've walked on the jaws of death!

[Rahima]

^Still adamant on the second ay! We are all entitled to our opinions (so long as they are not blasphemous against Islam), but in future it is best that we state such points (without the backing of any founded research or stats) as an opinion rather then masquerading them as bold fact.

 

The other thing is, brother I believe I acknowledged the problem before this last post to you , but in all honesty it strikes me as odd that one could hold an opinion not based on much which is credible. It is your prerogative I suppose, but it leaves me baffled at the very least.

 

 

Jaws of death-nice! Advice from a sister of yours-go and see for yourself , soon you will come to see that most of what is said is nothing more than BS !

[xiinfaniin]

@...but in all honesty it strikes me as odd that one could hold an opinion not based on much which is credible. It is your prerogative I suppose, but it leaves me baffled at the very least.

 

You see, I was heading my way out of this much-dragged thread when I came across this sharply put statement of yours (though with a noticeable civility) that pierces my credibility! I am left with quandary and thrown into intractable impasse now: leave without putting a fight (fierce one at that) to defend my credibility or state the obvious but (this time) with added emphasis, which could offend my respected sister (Rahima).

 

The first is seemingly a sheepish choice (a painful pick for a man with my pride) but it could keep the peace. The latter is not a mannish choice but it appeals to my nomadic tendency and could furnish some satisfaction.

 

For now, Xiinfaniin has to live with the first choice; the second is a risk that I dare not take and it could sure damage my much-guarded repute. In case you wonder, there's no middle ground in this issue.

[Rahima]

^Oh that was heated :eek: .

 

Did I say something wrong :confused: ? I summarized what basically took place, either way no pun intended (me swears on The Almighty).

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Salaan...

 

I personally deplore fruitless arguments, where this side of the board is well-known of. And before I begin for this, let me clear myself and in no inequivalent manner: I stand for Xamar; defended it--and still do--to death. It is my natural city of birth and I love no city, town or village on this earth than I of Xamar. It will always have a special place on my heart.

 

However, as I equally defend it indefatigably, and easily dismiss the persistent propaganda that some are throwing against this former wonderful city, I would likewise equally report the reality of my favourite city too.

 

Now, walaashiis, allow me to clear some issues--not issues, indeed, however the issue of some Soomaali citizens "xalaalizing" some residential, industrial and commercial properties.

 

I am not basing this on a hearsay. I saw them, witnessed as it is. This issue isn't limited to Xamar. I believe it happened in most other Soomaali cities that witnessed civil war carnage. I, however, only had been to Xamar this time, so naturally that is all I can report pertaining to this issue.

 

Bermuuda, as you were alluding to, isn't limited to guri-balaarsi issue. In fact, no reasonable person lives in Bermuuda. It involves every xaafad of Xamar, especially Hodan. It isn’t only limited to private properties. Some business people built commercial properties ON a common good public space that belonged to all.

 

I am sure if you were old enough to remember to compare the public spaces of the pre-civil war of Xamar and post-civil war, it is a dark contrast.

 

Some individuals had built deliberately without a hint of public conscious some commercial properties on places such as Carwada, in front of Warshada Kookada, at the former bed-flowered intersections of well-known isgoysyada, including Isgoyska Hawlwadaag, Isgoyska Bakaaraha and Isgoyska Kaasa Balbalaare. (These are the few I saw, where the former meelaha jardiinooyinka ahaa laga dhistay bakhaaro without a hint of public wellness.) This is the result of it being mainly an anarchic city. No doubt.

 

I gave an example on the previous post and you dismissed because that event had occurred on Bermuuda xaafad. Hokey, now this other episode I witnesses is the epitome of what we are discussing.

 

This person who had lived since the early days of civil war, a lavishly built villa that belonged to obviously a high-ranking official. He was contacted while I was there by to its former owners, and after he was thanked, he was keenly asked to evacuate it as it is. He refused, dismissing them acquiring their wealth, including the house, under tribal "booli qaran" governments funds. They try to reason with him, with no avail.

 

He was finally induced with a couple of thousand dollars dangling. He still refused to leave, this time reasoning he "invested" substantial amounts on that house. I knew the house before the war and I saw it again while I was there, the house seemed to look anything but to be invested. It used to be a shining laba-dabaq house, with all white-painted, inside and out. It no longer is. Even its white-painting wall fading to something resembling grey-dark-brown wall.

 

Before you dismiss again this man as another individual--he isn't alone.

 

Now, I stayed with my sister, who lived in my abti’s house at Taleex. The houses all across my abti wasiiro iyo official kalaa daganaan jiray, but Ilaahaa og dadka dagan maanta. Some waa loo hayaa, yes, and some deteriorating beyond recognization, including Xasan Abshir’s house, which was a block away.

 

Not all houses are forcibly xalaalized. Not the majority of houses are "occupied;" however substantial of them do, and I can tell you it isn’t limited to Bermuuda, where, again, no body lives. It happens in Xamar Jajab. It happens at Ifka iyo Aakhiro. It happens at Laba Dhagax. It happens at Lambar Afar. It happened--and still happens--basically any house that is fit and can be occupied, maxaa yeelay kuwii tarniika ama jiingada ahaa awalaaba horeey loo fiiqday. The xalaalizing of private properties never bothered me because one day, insha allaah, aala xisaabtamaa, but what bothered me was how the common good of public space had shrunk. Basically, with the exception of Tarbuunka, I hadn’t seen any other public space that had real estate value that was left alone. This has had very much bothered me.

_______________

 

Ha u qaadan in guryo nagala heysto and because I am criticizing of that. Noo way. Our properties are all standing and are used by relatives, some us ourselves. As a matter of fact, dowladii Kacaanka in its Hantiwadaag heydays "xalaalized" some properties my father owned, including what is known as Hoteel Taleex now and a farm at Afgooye, which duqa, my old man, uu waligiis soo hadal qaadin, meaning faraha uu ka qaaday.

[Sky]

rahima,

 

muqdisho was a city that once housed 40% of the entire somali population. from all somali clans in the horn to the presence of thousands of italians, asians etc. muqdisho was a cosmopolitan city, much like nairobi and addis ababa now. since 1991 it was reduced to a clan fiefdom by the usc militias, with the usc itself dividing the city into clan territories. 40%-50% of the residents in muqdisho werent affiliated to the usc. those ppl fled after it became clear that the usc leadership wasnt fighting dowladdi kacaanka for just causes, but for tribal payback.

 

no matter what you say, you cant convince no one that the number of occupied properties is insignificant. better yet, its an understatement to say that it is full with occupied property. muqdisho is the epitome of a city with forcefully occupied properties in the world. im reer muqdisho myself, and not one member of my family, friends or acquaintances that used to live in muqdisho have gotten their property back. not one. so whats this bullshit about reer gedo and soomaali galbeed. miyaadan ogeyn that the reer puntland owned more property in muqdisho than many usc clans, let alone those clans you just summed up. where are they in your picture?

[Rahima]

Now, walaashiis, allow me to clear some issues--not issues, indeed, however the issue of some Soomaali citizens "xalaalizing" some residential, industrial and commercial properties.

Not and never was this contested, xaraam undoubtedly. I don’t know where the discussion of xalaalizing came into it :confused: , I never once said it was right and I know I am repeating myself (I’m almost annoying the crap out of myself :rolleyes: ), BUT IT IS NOT THE MAJORITY CASE-you know it, I know it and anyone who has bothered to actually go also knows it.

 

However, I agree, all you state above is the truth-I’m not here to deny the truth brother . I don't believe i dismissed any that you had to say-trust me i know you saying it as it is. All I was suggesting was that we should not be making this an issue of epidemic proportion (at the end of the day, knowing what the city has endured we can safely conclude that the good and legit outweigh the evil and wrong-do we agree on that?). Yes, it is an issue of importance and really can only be addressed appropriately by a functioning government but we don't have to for example say that Xamar is a looted city- how unintelligent is that, do people even know what that means or is implying? As for the government infrastructure it would be ridiculous of us to expect it to be intact, who would rebuild it beside a government (which we all know we have not had)? I was not surprised to find it in that state, in fact I expected it-this once again is an issue for the government.

 

I’ve seen all that you’ve seen. To be honest, I do not remember the city as far as infrastructure goes, I was only six when we left in 1990, but based on the recollections of my mother, your assessment is basically correct. I was not saying otherwise, rather like I said it was the usage of incorrect terminology and the blowing out-of-proportion of the issue which I disagreed with (I’m sure at the very least this is a point which you know to be the truth). Like I said we cannot lash out words such as full and majority when it is a marginal problem as compared to the legit.

 

The city is too crowded, over-populated and as I remember reading in an article before I left, it has more people now then before the war. Therefore this pattern of setting up shop everywhere and anywhere is once again wrong but no real surprise- I mean people are now buying and building homes on the road to lafoole and some on to Afgooye-this took my mother aback. With so many people and so many traumas, one cannot expect that Xamar would be the same. Take into consideration all of that and I am surprised at the developments and the state.

 

The other issue I never quiet understand how it is that we tend to over-dramatise the issue as it only applies to Mogadishu. Oh how we love to bring up in almost every discussion of Mogadishu the issue of looted property (not you as such, but some Somalis). I often wonder, what makes for example the expansion of say Town X (just in case I get accused of targeting ) any more legitimate than the wrongful building of property (whether private or business) in Mogadishu? We don’t have a government and have not had one for some time which determines the building and land regulations. This I agree with you is quiet a dilemma to be faced and to be tackled by our government (kind of like apparently how Siyaad Barre-may Allah have mercy on him- restricted the pathways of homes so that road widths could be of a particular measurement), but it certainly is not an issue exclusive to Mogadishu. Who gives the folks of Town X the right to sell land which does not belong to them (it is government land-the land of the people in general)? With the establishment of a government we can then have the selling and buying of such property for the government represents the people, but till then it does not make it any more legitimate.