Are You all so Short Sighted

[Paragon]

As for the argument that the money being sent home will soon run out! I strongly disagree. History is proof of that. Somalis have been sending money home for hundreds of years (yes I said hundreds). The poverty of our nation did not start with the civil war. It has always been thus. There are countless 80-year-old Somalis who were born and bred in Arab and Western countries that still send money home. The idea that the young generation are changing and forgetting their country is not a new trend.

Ngonge, You should not assume reality is universal; rather it varies. I do think your evaluation of this particular matter is inaccurate. Consult with other Somalis who (also) send money back every month and listen to what they have to say.The difference is the scale of the money transfered: almost 300 Million dollars a year. Tell me, when else has this been the case?

 

Note that I am assuming you are experianced with sending money back like me.

 

Rest assured that this is one well that’s unlikely to ever dry up.

If I were you, I wouldn't be too sure. With the way global politics is changing and shifting; I would give caution about being too sure in living in the West. International Relation in this era of globalization promises more tension than security.

 

This “dhaqan celis†fable has been bandied about for years!

Troubled by this, eh?

[NGONGE]

^^^ Heh. An assumption for an assumption, saaxib!

Yes, I concede that at the moment there are huge amounts of money being sent home. This, as I’m sure you’ll agree is due to the large numbers of Somalis on the outside. This, as I’m again sure you’ll agree is a result of civil war! A stable Somalia, though poor, is unlikely to require such huge amounts of money. Nonetheless, your point (if I understand it correctly) is about the young generation of Somalis who forget the motherland and stop sending money home. This I still contest. I don’t have knowledge of the future, that’s the Almighty’s domain, but what I do have as a mere human is the ability to look at and learn from past examples. In this case, the examples of the past prove beyond doubt that many of those born and bred in the outside do at some point in their lives start in helping and sending money home. This has been the case with the old seamen in Europe and the many Somali families that resided in Arab countries (mainly Yemen) during Colonial rule. Their offspring picked up the habits, language and culture of the host countries but with time, they got back to what they knew to be home and fulfilled (for the most part) their familial duties.

 

As for your second part about living in the West and your mention of the riddle of globalization, I think here at least, you’ve succumbed to the mistake of making a wild assumption while forgetting a fundamental part of Somali nature. We’re nomads, saaxib. Living in the West is not the be all and end all. Again, I’ll use historical precedents here and cite the Somalis living in the Gulf countries as an example. Thirty years ago, that place was the goose that laid the golden eggs. Somalis flocked to it in huge numbers. Abu Dhabi, Reyad and Kuwait rolled off the tongue as easily as Xamar, Kismayo or Hargeisa! Things are not as rosy as they used to be in the past, however, a quick visit to Dubai will reveal that Somalis are still trying to find jobs and settle in those countries. On the other hand, many Somalis who lived in those places and started witnessing the draconian tightening of rules and immigrations laws, upped and left as easily as they came. Some of them had lived there for over thirty years! So, should things change in the West as you predict, I’m sure Somalis will as easily move on to pastures new. The nomad spirit lives on.

Talking of the nomad spirit, you’re also assuming that no more Somalis from home will be leaving and attempting to find their way into the West, Far East or Middle East. Only when that supply of fresh nomads ceases to be will the supply of money being sent home dry. Can you honestly say that either will happen?

 

Your final question is very mischievous. I’ve already covered that subject on another thread. Feel free to respond to any points I’ve made there.

[Paragon]

Nonetheless, your point (if I understand it correctly) is about the young generation of Somalis who forget the motherland and stop sending money home. This I still contest.

Ngonge, Firstly, if you look closely, you may realise that the above point with which you contest is not a point I made, rather it was Aniga's. The point I made, however, was dealing with the 'dependency theory' of the cash transfered; the difference in scale of the money sent and its future impacts. If you decide to question these points, I'll be more than glad to give you honest replies .

 

As for your second part about living in the West and your mention of the riddle of globalization, I think here at least, you’ve succumbed to the mistake of making a wild assumption while forgetting a fundamental part of Somali nature. We’re nomads, saaxib. Living in the West is not the be all and end all. Again, I’ll use historical precedents here and cite the Somalis living in the Gulf countries as an example.

Secondly, in the field of Foreign Policy, there are 'levels of analysis' which are either class, units (states) or structures to explain or to some extent 'predict' the future pattern of International Politics. Each political theory chooses a level that it finds useful. The Marxists still say analysis should be based on 'Class'; Realists choose units or states, however, although the latter theory was the dominant theory in IR, these days the Neo-realists rule the world. Their level of analysis is different from even their parent theory of 'realism'. They use structures as their level of analysis and are adamant that the structure of International System determine how states behaves, and thus affects domestic politics.

 

They also believe the International System is influenced by hagemonic states (this time the US). That being the case, neo-realists have equiped themselves with a book writen by a prominent neo-realist called: Samuel Huntington. Huntington teaches the neo-realists (especially the neo-cons) that since Bi-polarity is non-existent, the next power politics will be ciivilisational, and that in these civilisations faultline wars would be fought along the lines of 'culture and religion' (note that realists never accepted culture and religion before as determinants of any significance in IR, now they do).

 

The next big civilisations, Huntington claims, will be confucianism and Islam. For that reason the only super-power of the world (US) spearheaded by conservative zealots (neo-cons) are poised to shape the world as huntington predicted. So wars against Afghanistan, Iraq and possibly in the future, Iran and Syria are just the manifestation of the neo-con plan to safe-guard American hagemony. If you wish to know more about this global hegemoney, read the works of Meirsheimer who I think is now an advisor in US Freign Policy; who also contructed many US policies before in regards to Korea and China.

 

All that said, sxb, its illussionary to believe that Somalis can determine their stay in the Diaspora by migration from one country to another; I believe it is the International System that will determine our stay, migration and even our safety. If IR remains peaceful, then, like you asserted, 'rest assured', however if not, its 'rest un-assured'. Sxb, If you study the history behind Somalis who came to UK as seamen (which even my uncles are amongst), you will realise their migration to the UK was made possible by that time's condition of the International System and the First World War. They were seamen, solders and other workers who allied themselves with the West and thus as reward were accepted to settle in the UK, just as the Carribeans were accepted as their reward for for fighting for Britain. If tommorrow global politics takes another unexpected turn, the result will surely be unpredictable or can I say unfavourable.

 

It is all historical sxb. You should peruse the history of Cordoba and/or that of Spanish Adalusia, and corrolate the dominant empire of that period to today's American empire. The same advances Umar Ibn Khatab made to Europe are being made to the Islamic world by a civilisation of a different sort. We don't live outside history but within it. Considering the fight of the city of mosques, aren't we witnessing another crusade?

 

PS: We are not just who we think we are today; we are what we have been historically.

[MR ORGILAQE]

We are not just who we think we are today; we are what we have been historically

 

 

Jamaal I love it I love that comment you made.Yes i do agree with you 100% and it is because i hold suc views that i believe we should look to Somalia as future salvation not outside it as that iis the only place where as somalis no one can tell us we are foreign!.We have to build it so can return to it and those that will have to build it are my generation who will lay the foundation and the generation after us who will have to make it work efficiently.That is why i wanted to gauge tthe minds of the somali youth and all NGONGE seems to be doing is taking us of course.Bro Ngonge can you add anything positive to this argument if not could you kindly give those that wish to participate a chance,poisining their minds is not an option.

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by ORGILAQE:

We are not just who we think we are today; we are what we have been historically

 

 

Jamaal I love it I love that comment you made.Yes i do agree with you 100% and it is because i hold suc views that i believe we should look to Somalia as future salvation not outside it as that iis the only place where as somalis no one can tell us we are foreign!.We have to build it so can return to it and those that will have to build it are my generation who will lay the foundation and the generation after us who will have to make it work efficiently.That is why i wanted to gauge tthe minds of the somali youth and all NGONGE seems to be doing is taking us of course.Bro Ngonge can you add anything positive to this argument if not could you kindly give those that wish to participate a chance,poisining their minds is not an option.

Jamal, yours requires a longer reply, which I'll write when I get home.

 

Orgi, I believe I was being positive in my own little way, saaxib. I humbly request that you point out the “poison†that you speak of.

I’ve given you my realistic take on things, not my dreams or hopes, not my desire but what I believe is important. I didn’t expect many people to agree with it but I also did not expect to be accused of poisoning people, saaxib. Your knee-jerk comments resemble those of another proud and emotional nomad that I’ve had runs with in the past. You guys are proud of an idea and whenever someone points out the flaws in that idea you resort to cheap digs and disconsolate mutterings! The irony of course is to be found in the title of the thread. Heh.

Comment on my words and refute my arguments, saaxib. Suck and spit out my poison for all to see. PROVE ME WRONG!

[rudy-Diiriye]

case history#1:somali virtual country

take a look at my dad: he has retired

yrs! we built him a 5 bdrm house in the

bourgi sections of the hargeysa since all

his friends retired. de house is self

sufficient with its solar panel, sat-tv

phone connections i cant even pronounce!

 

hes runs from the gulf every summer to

his villa... rest of the time hes globe

trouting!! :confused: hes not very old

and healthy! he can still work!!

 

buttttt no, he get $300 from his 6 kids!!

man is a upper middle class according to

western stds! he dont taxes to no one, eat you uncle sam!!and all he does daily is

gossip about who is bad and who is not!!

 

i believe this the case with the majority of the elders so i dont believe they wanna create a

physical country but rather a virtual one!

 

why not! we have a virtual Pres and govt so its normal that we have a country like that too!

 

everytime something breaks in this country, we

should release a new service pack and resolve the

problem this way instead of fight each other or

some other nation!!....okey!

[NGONGE]

Back as promised.

 

On your first point, yes I seem to have got mixed up between the points you’ve made and those that Aniga made. Your point about “dependency theory†and the consequences of the money drying up is a good one. I have no concrete answers to that one, only reservations. The hope being that a government and functioning state will be in place to replace or at least plug the void created by the eventual end of this trend. I’m assuming that this trend will not come to a sudden halt but will rather evaporate gradually! It’s all conjecture of course, but I would hope that people’s ingenuity and instinct for survival would find a way to cushion this mammoth setback and keep the grating wheel of Somali life turning (albeit slower than before).

 

Your second point is a more general one. I’ve read it; reread it and then a third time! I can see your point regarding the neo-con’s agenda and how it might change the world order (if it were to succeed). However, I fail to see how the secondary impact of it (if any at all) would effect the daily lives of Somali migrants or the process of migration in general. Surely if we’re saying that the vision of the advocates and theorists of neo-conservatism were to come true, we’re saying that they’ll CONTROL the whole world and impose their values and beliefs on it’s systems of governance! I realise that Huntington spoke about the “Clash of Civilisations†and envisaged a world that was divided into three blocks (Western, Chinese and European). However, these theories were made in the early nineties and have been supplanted since. Now, the neocons of Paul Wolfwitz and co are the ones in the driving seat and their vision, though borrows a lot from Huntington is even more extreme! Their success in the Iraq war, triumph over “old Europe†in the Security Council and victory in Afghanistan have given them the satisfaction and belief that the American “empire†(or rather Republic) is already here. In political and military terms, they don’t foresee any significant opposition from any part of the world (save the “terroristsâ€)! Theirs is an ideological struggle, which by the way, they believe to be well on its way to bearing fruits!

 

Now, back to the case of our Somali immigrants and their ability to move and settle in “profitable†lands and it’s relation to the changing world! Here, I’m completely dumfounded as to the bases of your analysis. Why should any of this effect the ability of workers to migrate? Surely, if the neocons succeed in realising their vision, then they’ll be just another empire like the many that preceded it in history. In fact, very similar to all the ones you’ve mentioned. In all of those, foreigners migrated to these power bases in search of a good life and economic fulfilment! From the Jews who went to live and work in Istanbul under the Ottoman rule, the various Europeans who moved to work, study and live under Islamic rule in Andalusia, to the Somalis and many others who moved to the various trade centres of the British empire. I should even add the many Germans who moved to the United States after the Second World War! The politics has changed, the powers changed but people’s search for a good life and flocking to the centres of power and trade never has and I see no reason why it should now!

 

Was your point to do with Islam and the neocon’s total abhorrence of it? When you say “its illusionary to believe that Somalis can determine their stay in the Diasporaâ€, is that because they are Muslim? Of course the International system will determine our migration and safety, but why do you presume it will be a negative outcome? What signs have you detected in the American, libertarian, and very capitalist system that hint at the fact that migration, trade and opportunities of work for Somalis (and any other foreigners) will die out?

 

 

It is all historical sxb. You should peruse the history of Cordoba and/or that of Spanish Adalusia, and corrolate the dominant empire of that period to today's American empire. The same advances Umar Ibn Khatab made to Europe are being made to the Islamic world by a civilisation of a different sort. We don't live outside history but within it. Considering the fight of the city of mosques, aren't we witnessing another crusade?

Ah! The “crusadeâ€, it is about Islam then? I would appreciate it if you expand on this point, saaxib.

[Paragon]

^^^ You could say I speak as an IR political and Historical analyst and you, you could be speaking from a different position that merits consideration. I will leave it at that since we 'may' not be able to see things from the same angle. Lets accept both of our opinions.

[NASSIR]

On idea i like to infuse this great discussion is that plurastic society (Somali) that tend to keep their own customs face obstacles in their contact with the host country's customs and norms. To overcome such obstacles, therefore, first generation often neglect their own culture, customs by seeking integration and accepting the norms of the dominant society. However, the third generation, more secure in its socio-economic status and new identity becomes more interested to their ethnic heritage in the form of symbolic ethnicity. The three-generation hypothesis fits Somalis who emigrated to England and America in the early 20th century. This is clearly defined by Hanse's "Law of Return of Third Generation".

 

I also agree with idea of Jamaal-11 who pointed the "depedency theory". The recent trend that Somalia is undergoing is the family's dependency on overseas resources sent by their own relatives, thus generating indolent work ethics and the lack of pursuit for economic independency. In fact, life without rule and government has lots of hardships, Somalis should still demonstrate affirmative need to work and care for their own families instead of the welfare from abroad.