Thread on rebellion against muslim rulers!

[Fiqikhayre]

Xiin brother, I sincerly hope after reading the article below, you will realise the urgence to refrain from refuting the leaders of Somalia and their revilement!

 

"Advocating or ordering the good should not result in the loss of greater good nor cause a greater evil than before"!

 

Imaam Aboo Bark al-Aajurree (d.360H) - rahimahullaah - said: "It is not permissible for the one who sees the uprising of a khaarijee who has revolted against the leader, whether he is just or oppressive - so this person has revolted and gathered a group behind him, has pulled out his sword and has made lawful the killing of Muslims - it is not fitting for the one who sees this, that he becomes deceived by this person’s recitation of the Qur‘aan, the length of his standing in Prayer, nor his constant fasting, nor his good and excellent words in knowledge when it is clear to him that this person’s way and methodology is that of the Khawaarij".

 

Yaa akhi listen to the prophet peace be upon him: "There are three things towards which the heart of a Muslim never shows hatred or rancour: Making one’s action sincerely for Allaah; giving obedience to the rulers (wulaatul-umoor); and sticking to the Jamaa’ah (united body). Since their supplication encompasses those who are behind them (i.e. those whom they rule over)."

 

Now you are advocating disobedience to our rulers which will even cause a greater fitnah, we Somalis should have made supplications for Siyaad Barre instead of opposing him like we should make supplication for our current leaders and not oppose them in any way or form because it leads to fitan a greater evil!

 

What do you say about this below statements yaa akhi:

 

The Prophet peace be upon him stayed in Makkah for thirteen years and the government there was a disbelieving government. Despite this, whoever accepted Islaam from his Companions did not fight against the disbelievers. Rather, they were prohibited from fighting the disbelievers for this extremely long period of time, except after the Prophet migrated and a state was established and a community arose making them capable of fighting the disbelievers, this is the methodology of Islaam.

 

So when the Muslims are under a kaafir government, and they are not capable of removing it, then they must hold firmly onto Islaam and their ’aqeedah. However, they should not endanger themselves by endeavouring to oppose the disbelievers, because that will only result in the destruction and annihilation of the da’wah (call). As for when they have power (quwwah) making them capable of Jihaad, then they should perform jihaad in the Path of Allaah upon the known Sharee’ah fundamentals.”

 

"Power is known, so if you can carry out an action, and the Muslims start to become capable of establishing jihaad in the Path of Allaah, then jihaad has been legislated for them against the disbelievers. As for when their power is estimated, and not fully certain, then it is not permissible to endanger the Muslims, nor to urge them towards danger; thus taking them towards and end that is not praiseworthy. And the seerah (biographical account) of the Prophet in Makkah and al-Madeenah is an excellent witness to this."

 

And this:

 

Imam al Barbahaaree (d. 329H) said, "Whoever rebels against a Muslim ruler is one of the Khawaarij, has caused dissent within the Muslims, has contradicted the narrations and has died the death of the days of ignorance." (Sharhus-Sunnah [p.42])

 

The Khawaarij are a group who first appeared in the time of 'Alee (radiallaahu'anhu). They split from his army and began the grave innovation of takfeer (i.e. declaring Muslims, rulers or the ruled who are guilty of major sins, to be disbelievers). The Prophet MUHAMMAD (salallaahu'alayheewasallam) warned against them in many authentic Ahaadeeth, "The Khawaarij are the dogs of Hellfire." (Reported by Ahmad and it is Saheeh.)

 

MUHAMMAD (salallaahu'alayheewasallam) also informed us that they would continue to appear until the end of this world, saying, "A group will appear reciting the Qur'an, it will not pass beyond their throats, every time a group appears it will be cut off, until the Dajjal appears within them." (Reported by Ibn Maajah and it is Hasan.)

 

Also this:

 

Al Barbahaaree (d. 329H) also said, "It is not permissible to fight the ruler or rebel against him even if he oppresses. This is due to the saying of the Messenger of Allah (salallaahu'alayheewasallam) to Abu Dharr al Ghifaaree, "Have patience, even if he (i.e. the Ameer) is an Abyssinian slave," (Reported by Muslim.)

 

PROPHET MUHAMMAD (salallaahu'alayheewasallam) saying to the Ansaar, "Have patience until you meet me at the Pool," (Reported by Bukharee from Usayd ibn Hudayr.)

 

Xiin have you forgotten the below statment akhi:

 

There is no fighting against the ruler in the Sunnah. It causes destruction of the Religion and the worldly affairs."

 

 

Remmeber Hassan's saying: Al Hasan used to say, "If the people had patience, when they were being tested by their unjust ruler, it will not be long before Allah (Ta'aala) will give them a way out. However, they always rush for their swords, so they are left to their swords. By Allah! Not even for a single day did they bring about any good."

 

Adeer tell me are you a khawaarij? Do you advocate for civil strife, chaos and fitan? Why are you leading the people into harms way and thereby destroying the dawah! Be patient and make supplications but don't become a khaariji that advocates for civil strife brother!

 

Educate yourself brother from the culuma of this religion the likes of Sheikh Bin Baz, Sheikh Albani, Sheikh Al-Cuthaymiin, Sheikh Muqbil and Sheikh Rabici!

 

Don't become a khawaariji yaa akhi take time and study, I will give you more material inshallaah or you can look for it yourself!

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

And since when did Cabdillaahi Yuusuf, an alleged killer of peaceful traditional leader, a madaxyare madaxweyne ku sheeg, with his equal dowlad ku sheeg, Xabash-raised, bred and kunool became a "Muslim leader?"

 

Xaaraan buu ku yimid, oo Xabash keentay, xalaal ayaana loogu qaadaa. Mise Filla Soomaaliya haku ganbado, Xabash ku ilaaliso mise si kale, he won't last. Taas naga rumeyso.

[N.O.R.F]

Allahu aclam who is a muslim and who is not today in the Somali political demagraphics.

 

Does a man remain a muslim when he sanctioned a non-muslim people to invade the land of the muslims and kill muslims? An shiekh recently said no when asked on national TV - Islam Channel, UK.

 

What a debate!

 

Take it to Islam section

[Fabregas]

Good topic sheikh..Firstly let me say this is an overdue debate and one we somalis need to think very seriously about.The disbelievers could set the trap of pitting muslim against muslims as they have done in Iraq resulting in the blood of the muslims becoming halal for one another.This is what the late Abudallah Azzam warned the followers of the muslim brotherhood(Bin Laden and co) about ie fighting muslims government thus spilling the blood of the muslims. We pray inshallah that this is averted in somalia.Although we have already made our blood halal in the last sixteen years(qabil).

 

Regarding somalia firstly we must ask what exactly is the definition of a "muslim ruler"?In the case of the the islamic courts and the transitional federal government could we not argue that the islamic courts where infact the rulers as they controlled a larger stretch of land?This is why the defintion of a ruler is neccesary, because, islamically speaking who where the legitimate rulers of somalia?

 

Secondly there are two further issues which need to be clarified. Firstly it is regarding the somali warlords whom are know part of the government. They kidnapped ulema,spilled the blood of the muslims and even used some mosques as rubbish sites.In reality they where an obstacle to Islam.Thus the people of southern somalia rebelled against them.Is it permissable again, islamically speaking to rebel against them once again?Secondly in this particular instance, somalia has been invaded by a predominantly non muslim state Ethiopia.What is the islamic ruling on A.a "muslim" government suposedly inviting a non muslim army to invade other muslims and even bomb them in the case of America?B. Do the islamic courts have a right to resist the invasion of the Ethiopians,T.F.G and somali warlords, is this a rebelion or a legitimate struggle in the path of Allah swt?

 

 

Quote:Educate yourself brother from the culuma of this religion the likes of Sheikh Bin Baz, Sheikh Albani, Sheikh Al-Cuthaymiin, Sheikh Muqbil and Sheikh Rabici!

 

 

Aren't these the same people who made fatwas allowing the invasion of iraq and promote the teachings of a rebellious group(Abdul Wahab and the followers of Saud) who themselves came to power in the arabian Peninsula by the sword and rebbeling againt the Calipha at that time?

[Fabregas]

double post

[Qandalawi]

When did the government supporters agreed to mix politcs with religion. I though their main argument was to seperate between the two, or atleast that is the President's.

[Castro]

Geeljirow, this Sheikh Fiqqi fella is only a sheikh in the figurative sense. Don't take him literally. If you don't believe me, ask him who he considers the better Muslim ruler, Abdillahi Yuusuf or Sheikh Sharif Ahmed (based on publicly available data on their past)?

[Abdulladiif Al-Fiqih]

^^^I called him Aw-Fiqqi yacni, xataa salaada ma-sixi karo.

[N.O.R.F]

Originally posted by Abu_Geeljire:

Good topic sheikh..Firstly let me say this is an overdue debate and one we somalis need to think very seriously about.The disbelievers could set the trap of pitting muslim against muslims as they have done in Iraq resulting in the blood of the muslims becoming halal for one another.This is what the late Abudallah Azzam warned the followers of the muslim brotherhood(Bin Laden and co) about ie fighting muslims government thus spilling the blood of the muslims. We pray inshallah that this is averted in somalia.Although we have already made our blood halal in the last sixteen years(qabil).

 

Regarding somalia firstly we must ask what exactly is the definition of a "muslim ruler"?In the case of the the islamic courts and the transitional federal government could we not argue that the islamic courts where infact the rulers as they controlled a larger stretch of land?This is why the defintion of a ruler is neccesary, because, islamically speaking who where the legitimate rulers of somalia?

 

Secondly there are two further issues which need to be clarified. Firstly it is regarding the somali warlords whom are know part of the government. They kidnapped ulema,spilled the blood of the muslims and even used some mosques as rubbish sites.In reality they where an obstacle to Islam.Thus the people of southern somalia rebelled against them.Is it permissable again, islamically speaking to rebel against them once again?Secondly in this particular instance, somalia has been invaded by a predominantly non muslim state Ethiopia.What is the islamic ruling on A.a "muslim" government suposedly inviting a non muslim army to invade other muslims and even bomb them in the case of America?B. Do the islamic courts have a right to resist the invasion of the Ethiopians,T.F.G and somali warlords, is this a rebelion or a legitimate struggle in the path of Allah swt?

 

 

Quote:Educate yourself brother from the culuma of this religion the likes of Sheikh Bin Baz, Sheikh Albani, Sheikh Al-Cuthaymiin, Sheikh Muqbil and Sheikh Rabici!

 

 

Aren't these the same people who made fatwas allowing the invasion of iraq and promote the teachings of a rebellious group(Abdul Wahab and the followers of Saud) who themselves came to power in the arabian Peninsula by the sword and rebbeling againt the Calipha at that time?

some good points there.

[Fiqikhayre]

My fellow nomads thanks alot for the replies, but let me reply to MMA first, brother can you honestly say that Abdullahi Yusuf is a non-muslim a kaafir? Don't you know that takfiir according to one being sinner is a major crime against Islaam? Muslim rulers can have 'treaties' with anybody they want but your opposing it must make sense i.e. must not result in muslim people being killed by their enemies or put into harm's way!

 

Yaa akhi intelligence is required, but let's take our swords will result in nothing but our people further killed. We don't have the power to oppose those groups and on top of that we don't have an recognised Amiir that would co-ordinate the Jihaad in our land, so does it mean we conduct Jihaad in a messy way?

 

In other words everyone doing Jihaad in his own way, no coordination just go and and throw one hand granade, do you know that no one actually get's hurt by that then the fellow muslisms! We're not strong and we don't have a leadership of any kind that could organise us in a organised way!

 

So isn't it logic to put the people not at risk by allowing the Ethios that came into country to further kill our people in the pretence of them being opposed or them chasing 'terrorists' through the city Mogadishu and Somalia in a whole!

 

Back to my brother Geeljire, yaa akhi Islamic courts were not lacked universal approval from all parts of Somalia they were partisan group and majority of their shuura was from one clan because the courts themselves were made up by clans, when I asked court supporters why was that the case, they said because the ICU emerged from the islamic courts of Mogadishu it is only logical that they hold all the post! They also didn't control the whole country!

 

Secondly brother don't you recognise the TFG being the inclusive leaders of Somalia, if you don't then yourself are going against the ICU!

 

Read what the ICU said about the government yaa akhi, they said we're accepting the TFG of being our rulers the legitimiate rulers of Somalia as the TFG also recongised the political reality of the existence of the ICU!

 

What did the ICU want, didn't they say we will welcome Abdullahi Yusuf to Villa Somalia if he stops asking for foreign troops?

 

Yes or No, Yes they did so! The next thing was that they will attack the Ethiopians in the country but not the TFG ask yourself why?

 

Even when the war started they were reiterating that there war was not towards the Somali leadership and government but that they wanted to oust the Ethiopians from Somali soil brother!

 

Wallahi if you don't believe me I shall bring my evidence forth!

 

So did or didn't they recognise the TFG, they did no questions about it. Did Hassan Dahir Aweys ever declined the title 'President' to Abdullahi Yusuf, no is the answer!

 

So they were not opposing the government as a whole but what they wanted was that the country shall be ruled under Islamic rule and if Abdullahi Yusuf would do that then they would put their weapons down! Akhi, it's a reality that the courts by large recognised the Somali leadership and the TFG as being the sole leaders of Somalia and its goverment there opposition was only based to pressure that governmetn to adopt Islamic rule (shariicah) and remove the Ethiopians from the country, that's all nothing more nothing less!

 

Yaa Geeljire please on the other hand don't badmouth the good ulama of this religion may Allaah forgive their sins and enter them paradise!

 

Being a khawaarij isn't good because they advocate for civil strife, murder and chaos without any reasons because of dislike of their rulers!

 

Yaa akhi you can dislike the rulers but what is the best way and the sunnah in dealing with their errors?

 

Is it to shout in market places, call for bloody futile revolutions, burn down whole cities without having a unified ideology/strategy in place and an righteous Amiir that can oversee the muslims success?

 

Wallaahi yaa akhi what we needed was purification and teaching of the ummaah and an common aqiidah that we agree on, a united nation and a righteous leader Amiir in order to wage jihaad and defeat our enemies!

 

But to call for a Jihaad and become a khawaarij without being united in one aqeedah(not even ICU were united because of different aqaaid), one leader Amiir and one united people is totally unislamic and against the Sunnah!

 

Please brother if I said anything inlogical than refute me and bring forth counter-arguments to refute my position but I doubt that there are any argumets to refute it because I'm only talking sense and logic!

 

Wallaahi brother for muslism in order to be really true in their discussions they must be sincere to each other and acknowledge one one anther in order to brign forth progress! I hope you're sincere as me brother![/b]

[N.O.R.F]

Without reding most of your post,,,,

 

So they were not opposing the government as a whole but what they wanted was that the country shall be ruled under Islamic rule and if Abdullahi Yusuf would do that then they would put their weapons down! Akhi, it's a reality that the courts by large recognised the Somali leadership and the TFG as being the sole leaders of Somalia and its goverment there opposition was only based to pressure that governmetn to adopt Islamic rule (shariicah) and remove the Ethiopians from the country, that's all nothing more nothing less!

Did the TFG refuse to adopt sheria law? Was the presence of Ethiopian troops legal (both secularly/islamically)?

[Fiqikhayre]

Yaa brother what you seem not to comprehend is that the TFG never refused to adopt sharia law nor have they ever come out and said that 'Sharia' law today isn't releavant, which would one make undoubtedly kaafir! In the Federal charter constitution it says:

 

QODOBKA 8

DOWLADA IYO DIINTA

 

1) Islaamka ayaa ah diinta Jamhuuriyada Soomaaliya

 

2) Shareecada Islaamka ayaa saldhig u ah shuruucda qaranka. (Which means that Islamic law is the base of the laws in the land)!

 

But the question is how should we should have gone about to bring about full sharia law into Somalia? The federal charter say's that the Islamic Sharia is undoubtedly the only base which the laws of the country are going to be based on!

 

You should oppose the government if they tell you you should not pray or that you should fornicate but not on the basis that they're kuffar and need to be killed because you would be advocating for greater evil! You would become a khwaarij! On the other hand, you living in the UAE would you say that the UAE and their fellow khaleeji leaders are all kuffar because they don't rule according to the sharia or because they only rule to parts of it, what would you be advoacting the killing of their leaders and a 'Jihaad' on Abu Dhabi and the Makhtoums in 'Dubai' because they alinged themselves with America, would you do that? ICU had all the rights in rebellion against the warlords and the TFG supported them in it but they had no right to attack its base on the pretext of 'rooting-out' Ethiopians in Somalia! They could have done it differently but did they have the charisma, intelligance and religious understanding in doing so? According to your logic all the countries in the Islamic worlds should be overturned by rebellion, civil strife and jihaad is that logical, don't we need purification and teaching in the first place and a leader or Amiir? Or do we just go out there and do 'Jihaad' on our own views and in big messy way? Northerne why don't you go out with a 'knife' and attack the police and army in the UAE because they're not ruling accoring to proper Islamic rule and they have alinged themselves with kaafirs, it's absurd thing to do you agree?

 

But the question remains that the khawaarij of this centuary who were hell bent for civil strife didn't know on how to discuss the issue properly with the government! They wanted rule for themselves and used Islaam as a pretext and when they were refuted they adopted their second strategy which was that Ethiopian troops should leave the country!

 

Remember brother the ICU was never being hostile towards the Government because for the good reason, that they haven't had the 'jurisdiction' to oppose it on religious grounds!

 

That's why they were reiterating that they were not attacking the TFG and that their main was only to remove the Ethiopian troops from Somali soil!

 

Sharia was never an issue but the Foreign troops were, they said they were welcoming President Abdullahi Yusuf to Mogadishu if he goes back on his request of needing foreign troops in order to bring peace to Somalia!

 

They were saying 'foreign troops' aren't needed because we're sufficient to pacify the land ourselves, that was the contentious issue Northerner which you don't understand but not Islamic Sharia law!

 

How should they have gone about it I dare to ask? Is it logical to say 'We recognise the legitimicy of this government the TFG, but we're going to attack it's temporary base because Ethiopians are there'?

 

Please answer those questions and if by any chance you can refute that the ICU til it's last days were saying 'We're not attacking the TFG but Ethiopia' then please do so!

 

On the legality issue, if the ICU was really interested of Ethiopian troops being taken from Somali soil, they would negotiate with the Government and hand over to them the capital and all the weapons, that is if they were sincere! They would also agree on some kind of power-sharing formulae but never ever would they advocate for a disastorous 'Jihaad'!

 

Asky yourself recognising the TFG and its legitimacy to govern but going against the goverment of forging treaties they see fit in this case with Ethiopia is extremely controdicting. Doesn't the government have a right to have a treaty with whom they see fit of helping them bring back peace to our country!

 

The Wadaads had a golden opportunity by negotiating with the government and bringing into fruition the needs and desires of the Somali people to see a functioning government to their country if they did so, they would be remembered and enter the history of Somalia and eventually people would elect them to power next time around but not the way they did it, which was far from 'islamic' and waging a 'jihaad'!

[Khalaf]

good points brother Fiqq but you are talking about the methods of these groups use, not jihad u are not down playing that are u man? islam orders muslims to bow the heads and obey only Allah Most High not fear man also rulers are to be resisted when they committ open kufar/oppression/tyranny........what a dilema we face!

[Fiqikhayre]

Now brother but how can we oppose oppresion is the answer? Is it the sunnah for the ulama of this deen to preach from the mimbar to stand up and burn down houses and kill people in police uniform?

 

No brother that is not the way, Jihaad is a tenet of our religion and the only way to bring back our lost dignity but how should we attained it is the question?

 

Today in this world if we go with the logic of the khawaarij all of us are 'kaafirs' because we tolerate the rule of muslims who don't rule accoridng to the Islamic Sharia!

 

"Also all those rulers should be forced out by force and be killed also all that are perceived of supporting them in silence", brother if were to go by that the whole muslim world would be in flames! Because today there is no real Islamic country that follows the deen according to our Prophet peace be upon him or rules with the holy book!

 

Now here's the tricky question, what are we going to do about it? Advocate for civil strife and rebellion? Without having a common aqeedah (belief pattern) because you know how devided muslims are and without having the necessary leadership Amiir in place and the support of the people and the weaponary to defeat the enemy? I guess all those things are not needed,when we can do a rebellion in a disorganised and a messy way!

 

First of all what we need is Purification of the ummah and teaching, elect an Amiir that will coordinate the muslims to wage jihaad on their enemies and look after their affairs but brother all I'm saying is 'lets follow the sunnah and stop listening to individuals that only call for civil strife without an alternative, all they can call for is that person is a kaafir and let's take our swords to kill them'!

 

Brother the ulama of this deen have a duty to tell the leaders about their mistake but not in public, they should make suppliactions for them and not like the khawaarij call for civil strife and rebellion that will create even a greater fitnah!

 

The ulama have to be righteous and curious but condemn the leader from the pulpit isn't the sunnah, they go and talk to the President in private and present their concerns to him in private and they should not be fearful of it!

 

They can condemn the evil within a society or what is wrong from their pulpits without naming anyone because if they did it would create confusion and chaos and disunity within the people!

 

Condemn the actions without calling for the heads of your leaders is the sensible way forward brother and raise your concern to the president in person or writing and if they refuse make supplication for them but not cause destruction by futile revolutions that is the sign of real scholoars in Islaam!

 

What good have these people the 'khaawrij' ever brought about other than blood and destruction? Why are all those rebellions and revolutions failing brother?

 

Because it is for the simple fact that they have no other vision than disposing of their leaders, although they do not share a common aqeedah and therefore are disunited themselves and they're not following the Sunnah of the Prophet peace be upon him!

[Khalaf]

Sheikh Fiqq u say: 'lets follow the sunnah and stop listening to individuals that only call for civil strife without an alternative........aight but should we then listen to indivduals who call for secularism, a government made by the enemies of islam, ect is that following the sunnah? c'mon man the icu methods were wrong mos def they were dumb, but u also support a wrong....ha we want the republic back, but can we trust a government heavily influenced by the "international community"(neocons) will have the interest of poor africans.......history tells me no, and more importantly the Quran says never will they be statisfied with u until u disbelief and they hate for good to reach you....we saw that recently xamar a hell hole for 16 yrs no one gave a shit and finally some peace and here comes the help of the civilized world huh....lotta wrong here but........

 

 

ps: there is always an alternative, but u know whats up man....aduunkan wa xoog.