I am also a Shia too!

[Viking]

You still have not answered why you believe in the absurdities of the Shia I posted,

if you have no access to Al Kafi by Kuleiny which I doubt since you mentioned the Rawdah

, you can say that if indeed these are found in the Shia literature they are indeed damaging to the credibility of the rest of their concepts which was the reason I posted these materials in the first place,

I do NOT believe in any absurdities, if your memory serves you right, you'll have recalled what I said earlier about my beliefs. Bro Nur, I am not a liar (referring to the words in bold) and if you don't believe me, then that's your problem. Are you assuming I am lying because I know about Rawdah and Kuleiny? It's remarks like these that make me lose respect towards you (you thinking that I can't know about Rawdah without being a Shia). I always give you the benefit of the doubt and then you come up with things like these.

 

 

Now coming back to the theoretical relativistic physics and space time relationship. Once more I feel that you are desperate to discredit what i write about Islam by cleverly using my discusion with Mr. Feinman, as an example... In this thread, we discuss Islam, why bring physics into it like Feinman did and later complained that I was using big words even his coworker is confused about? and is it fair of all the goofs I make, and I do, to pick the most complicated topic for a lay person and then build a case against me?

As for the issue of dimensions, you were caught with your pants down however you try to explain it away with other terms. I wasn't trying to discredit you in anyway bro, but just pointing to the facts. There is also another post you wrote about the moon, fasting and water levels in the body. That again is another scientific fallacy that you presented, but am not here to discuss that either.

 

In the issue of physics, Feynman reacted to your theory of "3+1 dimensions in Islam". This is the question he asked you after your remarks "Nur where does it say in Islam we have four dimensions-- three space and one of time, known as spacetime?". and we didn't see any clear cut answer or a retraction of the erroneous statement you attributed to islam. Physics is Feynamn's field, however, I wouldn't want to talk about his life on the forums but please trust me when I tell you that he knows what he is talking about. He was just warning you against attributing fallacies to islam, theories that aren't facts. He also explained WHY he changed the topic from Islamic to a topic of physics...

 

I changed the direction from soul to spacetime, in order to prevent you from making the classical mistake, which almost all religious scholars tend to make. This mistake is, to try to use today's scientific facts as a justification for their beliefs. This is a dangerous road for one take and this is because today's scientific fact could be thrown out of the window tomorrow. Therefore, what I am trying to ask you is , where does it say in Islam, we have three spatial dimensions and one of time (i.e. four spacetime )?

 

The reason why I went to String theory is not to impress or show off. But rather I wanted to illustrate to you and other readers that in science there is strong believe that, we might not just live in a three spatial dimension universe but maybe in one of nine spatial dimensions! Had I just said to you there were more than three spatial dimensions you would probably would have asked me where I got this daft idea from and hence the reason why I dived into string theory.

 

On other hand, I can see in your reply instead of answering my simple question (where does it say in Islam, we live a three-dimension universe) you went on the defence and this time using big words, like K-theory, NCG and so on. I do not think that was helpful in just throwing big words, which very few people understand, and I am one of them.

 

 

But instead of taking the critisism as a reminder from your brother in Islam, you go on the offensive. That baffles me everytime you do because I have respect for you and don't expect you to react in that manner. I am not out to discredit you sxb, you are failing to give me the benefit of the doubt once again by suspecting me of ill-intentions. Something sternly discouraged in Islam.

 

 

but brother for the sake of fairness, why not take what the Sunnah say and defend the Sunnah against the Shia who blaspheme agianst the most revered generation who ever walked on earth accusing them of heresy after the death of the prophet SAWS?

I have never said anything negative about the Sahaba and haven't seen anyone doing it openly here on the forums. So bro, I don't see anything to defend against. There also isn't a Sh'ia debator here except Mutakalim (the others are asking questions and people are accusing them of being Shi'a), who is yet to come forward with his research.

[Kowneyn]

Beards:

 

Yes Tamim live in even sudan and egypt. I have a nubian friend from the aswan region of egypt who is from the said clan.

 

I ask you to read the article again so that you can decipher what is being talked about.

 

I will make it simple for you, here read this extract from the article:

 

The evasion of this early understanding of the term in order to exclude Najd, as usually understood, from the purport of the hadith of Najd, has required considerable ingenuity from pro-Najdi writers in the present day. Some apologists attempt to conflate this hadith with a group of other hadiths which associate the ‘devil’s horn’ with ‘the East’, which is supposedly a generic reference to Iraq. While it is true that some late-medieval commentaries also incline to this view, modern geographical knowledge clearly rules it out. Even the briefest glimpse at a modern atlas will show that a straight line drawn to the east of al-Madina al-Munawwara does not pass anywhere near Iraq, but passes some distance to the south of Riyadh; that is to say, through the exact centre of Najd. The hadiths which speak of ‘the East’ in this context hence support the view that Najd is indicated, not Iraq.

 

On occasion the pro-Najdi apologists also cite the etymological sense of the Arabic word najd, which means ‘high ground’. Again, a brief consultation of an atlas resolves this matter decisively. With the exception of present-day northern Iraq, which was not considered part of Iraq by any Muslim until the present century (it was called ‘al-Jazira’), Iraq is notably flat and low-lying, much of it even today being marshland, while the remainder, up to and well to the north of Baghdad, is flat, low desert or agricultural land. Najd, by contrast, is mostly plateau, culminating in peaks such as Jabal Tayyi’ (1300 metres), in the Jabal Shammar range. It is hard to see how the Arabs could have routinely applied a topographic term meaning ‘upland’ to the flat terrain of southern Iraq (the same territory which proved so suitable for tank warfare during the ‘Gulf War’, that notorious source of dispute between Riyadh’s ‘Cavaliers’ and ‘Roundheads’).

 

Confirmation of this identification is easily located in the hadith literature, which contains numerous references to Najd, all of which clearly denote Central Arabia. To take a few examples out of many dozens: there is the hadith narrated by Abu Daud (Salat al-Safar, 15), which runs: ‘We went out to Najd with Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) until we arrived at Dhat al-Riqa‘, where he met a group from Ghatafan [a Najdite tribe].’ In Tirmidhi (Hajj, 57), there is the record of an encounter between the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) and a Najdi delegation which he received at Arafa (see also Ibn Maja, Manasik, 57). In no such case does the Sunna indicate that Iraq was somehow included in the Prophetic definition of ‘Najd’.

 

Further evidence can be cited from the cluster of hadiths which identify the miqat points for pilgrims. In a hadith narrated by Imam Nasa’i (Manasik al-Hajj, 22), ‘A’isha (r.a.) declared that ‘Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) established the miqat for the people of Madina at Dhu’l-Hulayfa, for the people of Syria and Egypt at al-Juhfa, for the people of Iraq at Dhat Irq, and for the people of Najd at Qarn, and for the Yemenis at Yalamlam.’ Imam Muslim (Hajj, 2) narrates a similar hadith: ‘for the people of Madina it is Dhu’l-Hulayfa - while on the other road it is al-Juhfa - for the people of Iraq it is Dhat Irq, for the people of Najd it is Qarn, and for the people of Yemen it is Yalamlam.’

 

These texts constitute unarguable proof that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) distinguished between Najd and Iraq, so much so that he appointed two separate miqat points for the inhabitants of each. For him, clearly, Najd did not include Iraq.

 

 

Kowneyn

[Salafi_Online]

Innalhamdallilah.....

 

Kowneyn can you help me out please, can you grant me a cogent outline of the minhaj and 'Aqeeda of the Wahhabis from their own manuscripts. I cant stress this enough, a clear outline of their methodology and Creed from their books if you will, particularly from the works of The great Imam Muhammad ibn AbdulWahhab, so that I may be guided aright! Perhaps you can start a new thread if you wish, for it does not please me to highjack Nur’s thread! I thank you ahead,

 

wa baarakallahu feek

[Sakina]

Brother Nur ; Insha Allah this is going to be my last post since you attacked my chastity I‘ve decided not to even look at this thread again. To your last question questioning about my chastity I will give you the same answer that Allah gave to the hypocrites that questioned Aisha’s chastity “Indeed, those who [falsely] accuse chaste, unaware and believing women are cursed in this world and the Hereafter; and they will have a great punishment. Quran 24:23

 

Evil words are for evil men, and evil men are [subjected] to evil words. And good words are for good men, and good men are [an object] of good words. Those [good people] are declared innocent of what they [i.e. slanderers] say. For them is forgiveness and noble provision Qur’an 24:26

To your second question; you are the only one mentioning kufr concerning about the Khalifas. I haven’t seen anyone using that term even in their questions.

 

One of the great Sheikhs gave us an advice to always remind ourselves of our limited knowledge all the time because no matter how knowledgeable we might think we are we will never match Allah’s knowledge. He told us do not make the same mistake that Shaytan made when he thought that he was better than Adam (a.s.). If you listen carefully to all the lectures of all the great Sheikhs they always use this term maybe you should start reminding yourself too and Allah told us that we will be judged according to our understanding.

 

I do not accept shia sources infact I only accept from our 6 sahihs and the Sheikhs you mentioned I only recognize one of them Khomeiny and I heard it from the news. Therefore I have no clue what you are talking about when you say your sheikhs.

 

About the Dark Thursday. Imam Muslim has recorded it at the end of Kitab Al-Wasiyya ( The chapter on will) vol 2 p.14

Ibn Abbas reported: When Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w) was about to leave this world, there were persons (around him) in his house, ‘Umar b. al-Khattab being one of them. Allah’s Apostle (s.a.w) said: Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that. Thereupon Umar said:Verily Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Qur’an with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us. Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w) may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him. And some among them said what Umar had (already) said, When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w) he said: Get up (and go away). Ubaidullah said : Ibn Abbas used to say: There was heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise, Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w) could not write (or dictate) the document for them.

 

Sa’id ibn Jubair said that Ibn Abbas said:â€The Thursday! Oh what an unfortunate Thursday.†Then his eyes watered and his tears regularly flowed down his cheeks like a string of pearls. Then he continued: “ The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w) said ‘Bring to me a piece of paper and an inkpot, or a tablet and inkpot, that I may write down for you a document after which you will never go astray.’ But they remarked: ‘Certaily the Messenger of Allah is talking nonsense (yahjar).

 

Bukhari also recorded this tradition in the chapter of The Words of the Patient vol4 p.5 on the authority of Ubaidullah ibn Atbai ibn Mas’ud quoting consecutive sources up to him.

 

Imam Ahmad has reported the tradition of Ibn Abbas in his Musnad.Vol.1 p.325

I hope you will not accuse Bukhari and Muslim of being shias because they recorded these traditions.

 

As I told you before I do not accept shia sources therefore this book Nahjul Balagha that you keep mentioning is irrelevant to my questions.

 

About the inheritance of Fatima bint Rasulullah may Allah be pleased with her I do not understand what they mean by Prophets(a.s) do not leave inheritance when Prophet Sulayman (a.s) inherited from his father Prophet Da’ud(a.s) wouldn’t this tradition contradict the Qur’an? Imam Shafii said if a tradition contradicts the Qur’an do not accept it.

 

I don’t understand why you are accusing me of not regarding highly Aisha you yourself admit she was in that fitna and yet you don’t want people to know about it. I believe we should talk about it as an example not to make the same mistake she made. That doesn’t mean that I have no respect for her. If we are supposed to take half of the deen from her don’t we have the right to know which half we should take? In this issue I am sorry to say you don’t make sense at all. On one hand you say it is true in the other you say don’t tell anybody as if people don’t know how to read and find out themselves and why are you so angry at Fatima don’t you know that the Prophet regarded her highly and why are you comparing the two Fatima and Aisha one was the daughter and one was the wife. Now I am suspicious Insha Allah I’ll be doing some research on this issue. One positive thing I learned from you Nur is that when you get upset you are hiding some traditions that you don’t want us to know. Allah says in the Qur’an :

And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know [it]. Quran 2:42

 

 

You said that I posed “cosmetic questions†to Mutakallim. I asked proof from the Qur’an to Mutakallim and I asked you proof from the traditions. Now who did I pose cosmetic question. What would you have said if I asked you from the Qur’an. We should never give up saying I DO NOT KNOW because we are only human beings.

 

I am signing off from this thread because it seems we are not allowed to pose questions without being personally attacked. Brother Nur about what you accuse me of practicing if that is true may Allah forgive me but if what you accuse me is not true then may Allah forgive you.

 

Signing off

Sakina

[Salafi_Online]

people should really debate without letting their emotions get the better of them, and i advice myself first

[Nur]

Sakina sis

 

 

Shia is a school of thought, complete with their fiqh, histortical interpretation of events and aqeedah.

 

When you write that after researching their claims that you find the Shia are very accurate, an open check to all they stand for, it is you who have called to be questions on youyr belief of the Mutcah concept of the Shia, not me. So, if you have read my thread, I have divided the Shia int three periods, the first being the best, the second being questionable, but the third I showed that they have a new religion created by Abdullah Ibn Saba.

 

The question about the Mutcah marriage is a key if a person indeed believes in Shia, but to claim that Mutcah is against chastity, it means that you believe it is a Zina, and if indeed you believe it is Zina,then, please be careful that asking a question is not equal to making a claim against a virtuous woman, so please do not interpret a question as if it is a claim which is not, anyway, I am extremely sorry for asking you this question sister, I apologise whole heartedly, consider me a fallible mortal, who can make mistakes unlike the Shia Imaams and their Wilaayatul Faqeeh who are Macsuums, who are a place holder for the missing 4 year old imaam.

 

On the Muslim Hadeeths, InshAllah I will come back at length, but it is one thing to show a different perspective of events, however it is whole different thing to suggest Khiyaanah ( which you you yourself refused to accept as Buhtaan) that the best companions of the Messneger of allah SAWS have conspired to do evil and deprive the ummah of the rightful imaam, which the Shia say was Ali, and no where in the Shia literature did Ali himself, in my knowledge ever complain that Abu Bakar and Omar stole imamah from him according to the above Hadeth or the Shia sources which you say you do not believe.

 

So, taking you on youyr words, that you do not accept Shia sources, we will only use Sunnah sources, since you are Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamacah like you said previously, I would like to discuss with you the Shia issues from Sunnah perspective in a brotherly way.

 

1. First Political issues

The Imaamah of Abu Bakar, Omar and Othman was it a fraud like the Shia say?

 

2. Imamah ( is it a devine assiganment for 12 imaams, or a choice for Muslims)

 

3. Aqeedah

 

Please answer all the aqeedah issues I posted

 

Again, much respect

 

Your brother in Islam

 

Nur

[Kowneyn]

Salafi:

 

Better yet my fellow countryman and brother muslim, I pray that Allah will guide you and me by the guidance of his beloved rasuul scws, in all its glory and perfection both hidden and manifest.

 

Nur:

 

I would press our shia brothers on a concept which worries even the sympathisers of the shia I beleive you called it "institutionalized Taqiyya", taqayya is understandable under certain conditions but institutionalization means abuse and making a habit of down-right khiyana. This is a distinctly jewish character and unacceptable in Islam.

 

This is a sincere request to all the parties involved and I hope my ignorance in this matter is not offensive to anyone; its just a thought that came to me after reading some of the exchanges.

 

Kowneyn

[Nur]

Kowneyn Bro

 

you write:

 

Nur:

 

I would press our shia brothers on a concept which worries even the sympathisers of the shia I beleive you called it "institutionalized Taqiyya", taqayya is understandable under certain conditions but institutionalization means abuse and making a habit of down-right khiyana. This is a distinctly Jewish character and unacceptable in Islam.

 

 

Answer:

 

Kowneyn Bro

 

You have just stumbled on the tip of an ice berg, if any religious group has ever succeeded in institutionalizing deception in the name of Tuqyah, the Imaamiyah have perfected the art to new hights, now, when you add this to a plethora of their invented concepts together, starting with wosrhip of the imaams, The Rajcah concept, and the Bidaa, and featsing with the Muta marriages, how can one ever trust what they say, worse yet, how can they trust each other? In one of the Iranian cities, a female Iranian social worker documented the result of this social epidemic, more than 250,000 Mutaa marriage children abandoned by their fun loving parents to the state, at times, it was reported due to the secrecy around this purported marriage, that a father and son have married the same woman, and a man married his daughter by mistake because of a fatal attraction.

 

Nur

[Mutakalim]

Edited.

[Nur]

Nomads, This was an earlire debate between me and other Nomads on the Issue of Shia Sunni, which has spawned many other threads about what Sakina termed Salafi/Ahlul Sunnah.

 

Sakina, thinks that the Shia concept is pretty accurate according to her words, and that our Sunni History is dark, etc. I have ereposted this thread to put issues in perspective, let us see, who is far from the Tawheed?

 

 

Nur

[Viking]

Originally posted by Mutakalim:

Nur

 

I have posted this message lest you think to yourself "fa buhita alladii kafar". Well that is not quite the case "Akhuuya".I am in the final stage of my research/compiliaton; inshallah, if there are no further time constraints on my part, I shall bring to a conclusion my "dialectic/explication", if you will, within a week. So far it is sixty pages in Word Document; hopefully, I can eliminate any extraneous information so as to keep it under fifty pages.

What ever hapenned to Mutakalim's "sixty pages in Word Document?" :confused:

[FatB]

HI

[RendezVous]

Inal hamda lillah...

 

Please Help...I want someone to please help me find the answers to some of the following questions...Bro Nur please assist...one by one please..we need to come to the facts...

 

1.....Where were Shias when Prophet Mohamed(s.a.w)was there..Alive and kicking..I think he would categorically have answered some of their questions...

 

2.....are Shia Imaams more 'holier' that our prophet(s.a.w)..Why would they stay away from This world Like in 'Mahdis'..for so long that even our Prophet Mohamed couldn't?

 

3......Why are they refuting the Holy quraan..I think they didn't refute the Holy Quraan when The Holy prophet was there...Why now...?

 

4....Why has Shia..never spread more than IRAN and some parts of India..Sunnis have spread more than them by far..It has bypassed Indonesia..Malaysia and Philipines..Does this show the spread of Truth over false...?I am sure 'TRUTH' spread by far..

 

5....What kind of books do they ascribe to if they don't accept The Holy Quraan..?Do they have a different Quraan...?why didn't they say so when The prophet Mohamed was there...

 

6....Why do they classify the Sahabas as..Good and adversaries..when Sahabas were one united group during prophet's time...?Why now?

 

7....Even if they are given the authority to Lead ISLAM...as they say they would have liked...would they still change the Holy Quraan and Hadeeth...I think they would have left it compact and same...And what about the prayers..why do they pray differently...?Why didn't they pray like so...when The prophet was there...

 

8....Why did the birth place of the Holy Prophet never had many Shias..I mean(MAKKAH)..It was infact supposed to be the 'Centre' of Shia if I am not wrong...Why IRAN...now?If they claim anything to the Ahlul..bait..

 

10.....^^^^^My question above...did this have a relation with Christianity/Judaism which started in Jerusalem...and now controlled from The Vatican...(ROMAN EMPIRE)..Christians have no option but to accept orders from The Vatican..did we refuse orders from IRAN(PERSIAN EMPIRE) and continued with the Truth...?

 

11......was there some kind of political parties after The prophet's death...Which party was Shia..Did they lose the Elections...

 

12...Now what problems do they have with Sunnis..Why do they hate Sunnis..What brought about this disunity in ISLAM....

 

13....Could this be a plan to 'finish' ISLAM which didn't work fine...?

 

14...Why are they coming back to the fold of ISLAM now after 1200 Years later...?if they didn't prove themselves wrong..

 

Cajeeeeeeeeeb...No wonder we are seeing an 'Influx of Shia follower'...coming back to the main Branch of islam(SUNNI)...Come to Dubai and arabia..(for those Shias who came into contact with 'Real ISLAM')..and see them IRANIANS and other Shias..denouncing their Poltical party(Shiasm)coming back to the fold of ISLAM..they do regret...walahil cadhiim....

 

I am waiting...Brother Nur take over...

[Kashafa]

^^

His point is quite clear: Indicating a disapproval of Shi'a Beliefs through a series of open-ended rhetorical questions.

 

What his point is NOT is: eye-rolling and trite proverbs.

[RendezVous]

Originally posted by The Rendezvous:

Inal hamda lillah...

 

Please Help...I want someone to please help me find the answers to some of the following questions...Bro Nur please assist...one by one please..we need to come to the facts...

 

1.....Where were Shias when Prophet Mohamed(s.a.w)was there..Alive and kicking..I think he would categorically have answered some of their questions...

 

2.....are Shia Imaams more 'holier' that our prophet(s.a.w)..Why would they stay away from This world Like in 'Mahdis'..for so long that even our Prophet Mohamed couldn't?

 

3......Why are they refuting the Holy quraan..I think they didn't refute the Holy Quraan when The Holy prophet was there...Why now...?

 

4....Why has Shia..never spread more than IRAN and some parts of India..Sunnis have spread more than them by far..It has bypassed Indonesia..Malaysia and Philipines..Does this show the spread of Truth over false...?I am sure 'TRUTH' spread by far..

 

5....What kind of books do they ascribe to if they don't accept The Holy Quraan..?Do they have a different Quraan...?why didn't they say so when The prophet Mohamed was there...

 

6....Why do they classify the Sahabas as..Good and adversaries..when Sahabas were one united group during prophet's time...?Why now?

 

7....Even if they are given the authority to Lead ISLAM...as they say they would have liked...would they still change the Holy Quraan and Hadeeth...I think they would have left it compact and same...And what about the prayers..why do they pray differently...?Why didn't they pray like so...when The prophet was there...

 

8....Why did the birth place of the Holy Prophet never had many Shias..I mean(MAKKAH)..It was infact supposed to be the 'Centre' of Shia if I am not wrong...Why IRAN...now?If they claim anything to the Ahlul..bait..

 

10.....^^^^^My question above...did this have a relation with Christianity/Judaism which started in Jerusalem...and now controlled from The Vatican...(ROMAN EMPIRE)..Christians have no option but to accept orders from The Vatican..did we refuse orders from IRAN(PERSIAN EMPIRE) and continued with the Truth...?

 

11......was there some kind of political parties after The prophet's death...Which party was Shia..Did they lose the Elections...

 

12...Now what problems do they have with Sunnis..Why do they hate Sunnis..What brought about this disunity in ISLAM....

 

13....Could this be a plan to 'finish' ISLAM which didn't work fine...?

 

14...Why are they coming back to the fold of ISLAM now after 1200 Years later...?if they didn't prove themselves wrong..

 

Cajeeeeeeeeeb...No wonder we are seeing an 'Influx of Shia follower'...coming back to the main Branch of islam(SUNNI)...Come to Dubai and arabia..(for those Shias who came into contact with 'Real ISLAM')..and see them IRANIANS and other Shias..denouncing their Poltical party(Shiasm)coming back to the fold of ISLAM..they do regret...walahil cadhiim....

 

I am waiting...Brother Nur take over...

Why are people avoiding my questions..This is not empty 'Space'..I need someone to help resolve the 'stalemate..'..By the way, is there anyone who needs 'Disunity in ISLAM'...Count Rendezvous Out..