I am also a Shia too!

[silent-sistah]

silent-guy.....we have one thing in common...i didnt know that somali shias existed,,,seriously..

 

so, do u guys pray to a stone?....like when u making sajda?

 

and do u beat yourselves....if so...why?

 

Nur, thanks for the education, and nice topic!

[sayfulaah-almasluul]

as i promise my in my last post i will post the fundmental difference between shiat and sunis,

but i am read through the questions of sister sakina and nur's answers to these questions, and i felt bit and unconfortable with his analyst.

i will,however, try to answer the questions posed by siser sakina.

first of all you guys must remember that this sipute between shias and sunis started very stage of islam, some even deared to say it started immediately after prophet (p.b.u.h.) anounced his satisfactory of ali to be his khalifa.though that is the view of minoraty of sunis and majoraty of shiats.

any way to, let have a quick look of the sakina's questions.

you asked:

From my own research I came to the conclusion that some of our history is very dark as the shias claim and we have to face it and find an answer for it "

absolutely, that is so true,anyone with little knowladge of islamic histroy will know that muslim went through dark days after prophet (p.b.u.h) pass away.what was the cause of this is very clear, it was becuase muslim did not followed the rules outlined by the prophet( p.b.u.h.)

you asked:

I am going to ask you some questions that some shias posed to me and after doing my research and with my limited knowledge unfortunately I came to the conclusion they are pretty accurate . "

i am sure some of thier question are ligetimate and they do deserve to be answered correctly

nur's answer to the above question:

Sister how can you verify the Shia claims in order to reach a solid concllusion that they are PRETTY ACCURATE if as you say YOU HAVE VERY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE, Can you explain this contradiction please?

i think she only verified to the extent of her knowledge and no one can claim unlimited knowledge!!!!

God said ( wa fouqa kuli thii cilmin caliim)" and above every expert there is somei=one more expert" suuratul yusuf.

sakina you asked

What happened in "The dark Thursday" when our beloved Prophet (s.w.w) asked for pen and paper so he could dictate us something that would not divide us and Omar said that the Prophet (s.w.w.) was delirious do not give him anything (Hint look in Sahih Muslim )"

this was one of the darkest day in muslim history, it is the day prophet mohamed called for pen and paper to wrrite down a book which if the muslims follow they will never stray.it is the day ibnu Absa use to call it as ( yowmul khamiis wama youmul khamiis) and he use to cry and cry untill his become wet with his tears!!! this thursday prophet called for a paper and pen. but then the unexpected happened, when some of the prophet's family members tried to bring it, omar said with his loud voice " NO THE HOLY BOOK IS WITH US AND IT is ENOUGH " his objections surprised many of the companions around him, why did omar objected the prophet remains unclear in suni sects.

sis you said:

What happend in Saqifa? Who was present there and how was the first Khalifa chosen ?"

according to omar binu khatab, no he was not chosen.

sister you asked

Why Fatima bint Rasulullah was angry at the Khalifa and his supporters till the time she passed away?

 

one main reason was that she was not satisfied the way the things have been handled.she also was very angry about the abuu bakari's refusal to give her her parts of prophets inherit, as nur said abuu bakar said that he heard prophet (p.b.u.h.) naxnu macaashiral alanbiyaa laa nuwarith" logically the haddith is contradicting. look the hadith says " naxnu" that is plurl or jamac "alanbiyaa" prophets" that is too jamac" but when you read the holy quran you find that sulaman inhertied his father dawuud and both of them were prophets. furthermore the inherit verse in holy quran did not excluded prophets. you can verified that by checking ayatul irthi.

and you said:

Who was at the head of the first civil war between the muslim ummah the war of Jamal and who was at the head of that war ?

oh my God!!this is restricted area!! if you are suni you can't talk about who was who in this battle? i mean you can't blame one person for what happened which i think is absolutely wrong,shaytan played major role in this,not only in this battle but all the battles that muslim fought against each other.in mutafaq hadiith prophet predicted that cammaar binu yasir will be kiled by a aggresors? now who killed cammmar? it is for you guys to check and see who ?

finally it is advisable when debating topic like to respect the views of others, and not make mockery of it.i would have advised all parts debating in this topic to first of all start from the common points, i mean what both saids agree upon and then come to discuss the difference in brotherly way with respect of other's view and believes.

than you all. may God guide us all to the right way. amin

[Nur]

Sayfullah Al Maslul

 

Welcome to the forum, I assume that you are speaking for the sister to help her, but you were very picky, why you did not respond to Ali's speech in Nahjul Balaagah?. Talk about mockery, its interesting that you did not notice what she said about her family members adopting wahaabism and following BLINDLY and not asking questions. If you have to pint at mistakes on this forum, at least be fair, viewers will respect you for that, otherwise, you are not going to be part of a solution, just the problem.

 

As you have seen I have posted this thread and I expected that you read the entire article and respond on the following:

 

1. The Origin of The Shia

 

2. The Shia imaams significance

 

3. The Shia beliefs and worship

 

4. The Shia and the Quraan

 

5. The Shia and the concept of Bidaa

 

6. the Shia and the Concept of Rajcah

 

7. The Shia and the Saxaabah

 

8. The Shia and the Muta marriage including the " Icaaratul Farj marriage" supported by even current Shia Marjaciyyah, Ayatullah Sistani in Iraq.

 

9. The Shia and Concept of Ghaybah Al sughraa, and Ghaybah Al Kubraa by the Missing 5 year old imaam Askari and the volume of religion he transmitted during his 65 year absence through his followers to the knowledge body of the current Shia.

 

Waiting for your response

 

Nur

[Qac Qaac]

Oh God.. I see shaism is back. and i see sayfullah al-maslul back...

[Viking]

The funny thing is that you even you believe that the Prophet asked for a pen and paper as if he has done it anytime in his lifetime! remember he was the illitrate prophet ? his miracle! when you belive in a lie, make sure it is consistent before you pose it to us, if you are a good researcher!

Nur,

C'mon bro, do you seriously think that the Shi'a literally mean that the Prophet PBUH actually thought of writing, knowing he's illiterate and seriously ill?

 

Are you also saying that the Prophet PBUH never asked others to write things down for him? How about the various scribes?

[Nur]

Viking Bro

 

Sorry bro, I missed the point that she said (he asked them To Dictate), bust still the pen and paper detail is a Shia thing, Anyway, I mistakenly assumed that she meant that he wanted to write, so let us lay this confusion to the side.

 

What amazes me though is how zealous you are in coming to the aid of any shia or shia-would-be, and never speak for common sense when presented by a non Shia like me, and yet claim to be searching knowledge. I have yet to see a note of yours saying " Nur has a point here "! but never did I ever read that.

 

In this thread I went out of my way to present ONLY Shia materials from Shia books and Sheikhs, but unfortunately, you stick to what I have shown you to be a clear fraud.

 

How can you believe scholars who would write in their most reliable books Hadeeths like this:

 

It was reported by the Amir ul Mumineen ( Ali) Aleyhi Salaam that Afeer ( Cafiir) the donkey of the prophet SAWS said to the Messenger of Allah SAWS " Oh Messenger of Allah My father had narrated to me that my grand father narrated to him that his great grand father told him that that he was in the arch with Prophet Noah, then Noah petted his back and said to him that " this donkey will have a grandson who will be tghe donkey of the Sayyid of all prophets and the last, so Praise to Allah who made me that Donkey" Source Usuul Al KAAFI, Volume 1 page 237.

 

I know that the mere fact of posting this Shia Hadeeth from their most followed book makes you nausiated, but face it brother, their books are full of similar legends, now tell me you dont believe Bukhaari, but you believe Kuleiny?

 

 

Nur

[Saabir]

Originally posted by sayfulaah-almasluul:

the sakina's questions.

you asked:

quote:

---

From my own research I came to the conclusion that some of our history is very dark

 

this was one of the darkest day in muslim history, it is the day prophet mohamed called for pen and paper to wrrite down a book which if the muslims follow they will never stray.it is the day ibnu Absa use to call it as ( yowmul khamiis wama youmul khamiis) and he use to cry and cry untill his become wet with his tears!!! this thursday prophet called for a paper and pen. but then the unexpected happened, when some of the prophet's family members tried to bring it, omar said with his loud voice " NO THE HOLY BOOK IS WITH US AND IT is ENOUGH " his objections surprised many of the companions around him, why did omar objected the prophet remains unclear in suni sects.

Omar Radiyallahu canhu, who voluntarily and without a fear of any one became a muslim and respected the Prophet very much,like the other companions did, would never have disobeyed the prophet.

[Qac Qaac]

Silent Guy i agree with u... but they again waa dad la dhumiyay... ee hala yaabin.

[Viking]

What amazes me though is how zealous you are in coming to the aid of any shia or shia-would-be, and never speak for common sense when presented by a non Shia like me, and yet claim to be searching knowledge. I have yet to see a note of yours saying "

Nur has a point here

"! but never did I ever read that.

I am not just coming to the aid of "shia or shia-would-be" as it may seem. I just pointed out something I thought was very obvious. If I was defending the Shia as you claim, I would be adressing the others for you are among the most lenient towards them (you can see some talk about them as if they were lepers) on these threads. As for agreeing with your "evidence" 9or refuting them), I would have if I had had access to Koweini's works. If you recall, lack of materials required for this discussion was one of the reasons I declined to participate.

 

Bro Nur, you are a revered Nomad and your posts are read and enjoyed by many. Many are reminded of their purpose and learn a great deal from them also. Some (unfortunately) would even take anything you say as "law" without confirming. There was a time you stated that "in Islam we have the phyisical with al its four dimensions, 3+ time". This is a scientific fallacay that has no support whatsoever in our Deen. If Feynman (and later I) hadn't pointed out this erroneous statement, it would have gone unnoticed or even embraced as an Islamic fact by some. I know it may sound petty, but ascribing a fallacy to the Deen is pretty serious.

[Kowneyn]

Wahhabi/salafism was born out of politics of greed and envy, spread by petro-dollars (Saudi proverb: Money is the best lubricant) and its kept alive by ignorance.

 

Somalis must build islamic institutions of learning that teach the authentic tradition of ahlul sunnah as well as the shia without prejudice or misguided politics in order to safe gaurd their faith from misguided pseudo-scholars.

 

Kowneyn

[Kowneyn]

Najd is the region that is the political heartland of modern day Saudi Arabia. Its the birth place of wahhabism and the al-saud dynasty that eventually conquered the region of Hejaz which includes mecca and medina to form modern day Saudi Arabia.

 

The Tamim clan of Najd were consumed by hatred of the blessed Quraish since time immemorial. The "Apocalyptic" hatred and envy of the status of the Quraish often caused them to go to extremes, even to the point of declaring prophethood of their own. As always those who try to rival Allah's blessings meet with a disgraceful end. Wahhabism comes from the same usual suspects and regional hot-bed of hypocrisy, envy and extremism. I ask each and everyone to read the article below...

 

 

PUNCTURING THE DEVIL’S DREAM ABOUT THE

HADITHS OF

NAJD AND TAMIM

[updated]

 

Kerim Fenari

 

 

 

bismi’Llahi’r-Rahmani’r-Rahim

 

It is striking that not one of the great muhaddiths, mufassirs, grammarians, historians, or legists of Islam has emerged from the region known as Najd, despite the extraordinary and blessed profusion of such people in other Muslim lands. This essay offers to Muslims with open minds an explanation of this remarkable fact.

 

 

The Hadith of Najd: a correction

 

The land of Najd, which for two centuries has been the crucible of the Wahhabi doctrine, is the subject of a body of interesting hadiths and early narrations, which repay close analysis. Among the best-known of these hadiths is the relation of Imam al-Bukhari in which Ibn Umar said: ‘The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) mentioned: "O Allah, give us baraka in our Syria, O Allah, give us baraka in our Yemen." They said: "And in our Najd?" and he said: "O Allah, give us baraka in our Syria, O Allah, give us baraka in our Yemen." They said: "And in our Najd?" and I believe that he said the third time: "In that place are earthquakes, and seditions, and in that place shall rise the devil’s horn [qarn al-shaytan]."’

 

This hadith is clearly unpalatable to the Najdites themselves, some of whom to this day strive to persuade Muslims from more reputable districts that the hadith does not mean what it clearly says. One device used by such apologists is to utilise a definition that includes Iraq in the frontiers of Najd. By this manoeuvre, the Najdis draw the conclusion that the part of Najd, which is condemned so strongly in this hadith, is in fact Iraq, and that Najd proper is excluded. Medieval Islamic geographers contest this inherently strange thesis (see for instance Ibn Khurradadhbih, al-Masalik wa’l-mamalik [Leiden, 1887], 125; Ibn Hawqal, Kitab Surat al-ard [beirut, 1968],18); and limit the northern extent of Najd at Wadi al-Rumma, or to the deserts to the south of al-Mada’in. There is no indication that the places in which the second wave of sedition arose, such as Kufa and Basra, were associated in the mind of the first Muslims with the term ‘Najd’. On the contrary, these places are in every case identified as lying within the land of Iraq.

 

The evasion of this early understanding of the term in order to exclude Najd, as usually understood, from the purport of the hadith of Najd, has required considerable ingenuity from pro-Najdi writers in the present day. Some apologists attempt to conflate this hadith with a group of other hadiths which associate the ‘devil’s horn’ with ‘the East’, which is supposedly a generic reference to Iraq. While it is true that some late-medieval commentaries also incline to this view, modern geographical knowledge clearly rules it out. Even the briefest glimpse at a modern atlas will show that a straight line drawn to the east of al-Madina al-Munawwara does not pass anywhere near Iraq, but passes some distance to the south of Riyadh; that is to say, through the exact centre of Najd. The hadiths which speak of ‘the East’ in this context hence support the view that Najd is indicated, not Iraq.

 

On occasion the pro-Najdi apologists also cite the etymological sense of the Arabic word najd, which means ‘high ground’. Again, a brief consultation of an atlas resolves this matter decisively. With the exception of present-day northern Iraq, which was not considered part of Iraq by any Muslim until the present century (it was called ‘al-Jazira’), Iraq is notably flat and low-lying, much of it even today being marshland, while the remainder, up to and well to the north of Baghdad, is flat, low desert or agricultural land. Najd, by contrast, is mostly plateau, culminating in peaks such as Jabal Tayyi’ (1300 metres), in the Jabal Shammar range. It is hard to see how the Arabs could have routinely applied a topographic term meaning ‘upland’ to the flat terrain of southern Iraq (the same territory which proved so suitable for tank warfare during the ‘Gulf War’, that notorious source of dispute between Riyadh’s ‘Cavaliers’ and ‘Roundheads’).

 

Confirmation of this identification is easily located in the hadith literature, which contains numerous references to Najd, all of which clearly denote Central Arabia. To take a few examples out of many dozens: there is the hadith narrated by Abu Daud (Salat al-Safar, 15), which runs: ‘We went out to Najd with Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) until we arrived at Dhat al-Riqa‘, where he met a group from Ghatafan [a Najdite tribe].’ In Tirmidhi (Hajj, 57), there is the record of an encounter between the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) and a Najdi delegation which he received at Arafa (see also Ibn Maja, Manasik, 57). In no such case does the Sunna indicate that Iraq was somehow included in the Prophetic definition of ‘Najd’.

 

Further evidence can be cited from the cluster of hadiths which identify the miqat points for pilgrims. In a hadith narrated by Imam Nasa’i (Manasik al-Hajj, 22), ‘A’isha (r.a.) declared that ‘Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) established the miqat for the people of Madina at Dhu’l-Hulayfa, for the people of Syria and Egypt at al-Juhfa, for the people of Iraq at Dhat Irq, and for the people of Najd at Qarn, and for the Yemenis at Yalamlam.’ Imam Muslim (Hajj, 2) narrates a similar hadith: ‘for the people of Madina it is Dhu’l-Hulayfa - while on the other road it is al-Juhfa - for the people of Iraq it is Dhat Irq, for the people of Najd it is Qarn, and for the people of Yemen it is Yalamlam.’

 

These texts constitute unarguable proof that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) distinguished between Najd and Iraq, so much so that he appointed two separate miqat points for the inhabitants of each. For him, clearly, Najd did not include Iraq.

 

 

 

Najd in the Hadith Literature

 

There are many hadiths in which the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) praised particular lands. It is significant that although Najd is the closest of lands to Makka and Madina, it is not praised by any one of these hadiths. The first hadith cited above shows the Messenger’s willingness to pray for Syria and Yemen, and his insistent refusal to pray for Najd. And wherever Najd is mentioned, it is clearly seen as a problematic territory. Consider, for instance, the following noble hadith:

 

Amr ibn Abasa said: ‘Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) was one day reviewing the horses, in the company of Uyayna ibn Hisn ibn Badr al-Fazari. [...] Uyayna remarked: "The best of men are those who bear their swords on their shoulders, and carry their lances in the woven stocks of their horses, wearing cloaks, and are the people of the Najd." But Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) replied: "You lie! Rather, the best of men are the men of the Yemen. Faith is a Yemeni, the Yemen of [the tribes of] Lakhm and Judham and Amila. [...] Hadramawt is better than the tribe of Harith; one tribe is better than another; another is worse [...] My Lord commanded me to curse Quraysh, and I cursed them, but he then commanded me to bless them twice, and I did so [...] Aslam and Ghifar, and their associates of Juhaina, are better than Asad and Tamim and Ghatafan and Hawazin, in the sight of Allah on the Day of Rising. [...] The most numerous tribe in the Garden shall be [the Yemeni tribes of] Madhhij and Ma’kul.’ (Ahmad ibn Hanbal and al-Tabarani, by sound narrators. Cited in Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Haythami, Majma‘ al-zawa’id wa manba‘ al-fawa’id [Cairo, 1352], X, 43).

 

The Messenger says ‘You lie!’ to a man who praises Najd. Nowhere does he extol Najd - quite the contrary. But other hadiths in praise of other lands abound. For instance:

 

Umm Salama narrated that Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) gave the following counsel on his deathbed: ‘By Allah, I adjure you by Him, concerning the Egyptians, for you shall be victorious over them, and they will be a support for you and helpers in Allah’s path.’ (Tabarani, classed by al-Haythami as sahih [Majma‘, X, 63].) (For more on the merit of the Egyptians see Sahih Muslim, commentary by Imam al-Nawawi [Cairo, 1347], XVI, 96-7.)

 

Qays ibn Sa‘d narrated that Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: ‘Were faith to be suspended from the Pleiades, men from the sons of Faris [south-central Iran] would reach it.’ (Narrated in the Musnads of both Abu Ya‘la and al-Bazzar, classified as Sahih by al-Haythami. Majma‘, X, 64-5. See further Nawawi’s commentary to Sahih Muslim, XVI, 100.)

 

 

Allah’s Messenger said: ‘Tranquillity (sakina) is in the people of the Hijaz.’ (al-Bazzar, cited in Haythami, X, 53.)

 

 

On the authority of Abu’l-Darda (r.a.), the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: ‘You will find armies. An army in Syria, in Egypt, in Iraq and in the Yemen.’ (Bazzar and Tabarani, classified as sahih: al-Haythami, Majma‘, X, 58.) This constitutes praise for these lands as homes of jihad volunteers.

 

 

‘The angels of the All-Compassionate spread their wings over Syria.’ (Tabarani, classed as sahih: Majma‘, X, 60. See also Tirmidhi, commentary of Imam Muhammad ibn Abd al-Rahman al-Mubarakfuri: Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi bi-sharh Jami‘ al-Tirmidhi, X, 454; who confirms it as hasan sahih.)

 

 

Abu Hurayra narrated that Allah’s Messenger (s) said: ‘The people of Yemen have come to you. They are tenderer of heart, and more delicate of soul. Faith is a Yemeni, and wisdom is a Yemeni.’ (Tirmidhi, Fi fadl al-Yaman, no.4028. Mubarakfuri, X, 435, 437: hadith hasan sahih. On page 436 Imam Mubarakfuri points out that the ancestors of the Ansar were from the Yemen.)

 

 

‘The people of the Yemen are the best people on earth’. (Abu Ya‘la and Bazzar, classified as sahih. Haythami, X, 54-5.)

 

 

Allah’s Messenger (s) sent a man to one of the clans of the Arabs, but they insulted and beat him. He came to Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) and told him what had occurred. And the Messenger (s) said, ‘Had you gone to the people of Oman, they would not have insulted or beaten you.’ (Muslim, Fada’il al-Sahaba, 57. See Nawawi’s commentary, XVI, 98: ‘this indicates praise for them, and their merit.’)

 

 

The above hadiths are culled from a substantial corpus of material which records the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) praising neighbouring regions. Again, it is striking that although Najd was closer than any other, hadiths in praise of it are completely absent.

 

 

This fact is generally known, although not publicised, by Najdites themselves. It is clear that if there existed a single hadith that names and praises Najd, they would let the Umma know. In an attempt to circumvent or neutralise the explicit and implicit Prophetic condemnation of their province, some refuse to consider that the territorial hadiths might be in any way worthy of attention, and focus their comments on the tribal groupings who dwell in Najd.

 

 

The Tribe of Tamim

 

The best-known tribe of Central Arabia are the Banu Tamim. There are hadiths which praise virtually all of the major Arab tribal groups, and to indicate the extent of this praise a few examples are listed here:

 

 

Allah’s Messenger (s) said: ‘O Allah, bless [the tribe of] Ahmas and its horses and its men sevenfold.’ (Ibn Hanbal, in Haythami, Majma‘, X, 49. According to al-Haythami its narrators are all trustworthy.)

 

 

Ghalib b. Abjur said: ‘I mentioned Qays in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (s) and he said, "May Allah show His mercy to Qays." He was asked, "O Messenger of God! Are you asking for His mercy for Qays?" and he replied, "Yes. He followed the religion of our father Ismail b. Ibrahim, Allah’s Friend. Qays! Salute our Yemen! Yemen! Salute our Qays! Qays are Allah’s cavalry upon the earth."’ (Tabarani, declared sahih by al-Haythami, X, 49.)

 

 

Abu Hurayra narrated that Allah’s Messenger (s) said: ‘How excellent a people are Azd, sweet-mouthed, honouring their vows, and pure of heart!’ (Ibn Hanbal via a good (hasan) isnad, according to Haythami, X, 49.)

 

 

Anas b. Malik said: ‘If we are not from Azd, we are not from the human race.’ (Tirmidhi, Manaqib, 72; confirmed by Mubarakfuri, X, 439 as hasan gharib sahih.)

 

 

Abdallah ibn Mas‘ud said: ‘I witnessed Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) praying for this clan of Nakh‘.’ Or he said: ‘He praised them until I wished that I was one of them.’ (Ibn Hanbal, with a sound isnad. Haythami, X, 51.)

 

 

On the authority of Abdallah ibn Amr ibn al-As, who said: ‘I heard Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) saying: "This command [the Caliphate] shall be in Quraysh. No-one shall oppose them without being cast down on his face by Allah, for as long as they establish the religion."’ (Bukhari, Manaqib, 2.)

 

 

The hadith which appears to praise Tamim is hence not exceptional, and can by no stretch of the imagination be employed to indicate Tamim’s superiority over other tribes. In fact, out of this vast literature on the merits of the tribes, only one significant account praises Tamim. This runs as follows: Abu Hurayra said: ‘I have continued to love Banu Tamim after I heard three things concerning them from Allah’s Messenger (s.w.s.). "They will be the sternest of my Umma against the Dajjal; one of them was a captive owned by ‘A’isha, and he said: ‘Free her, for she is a descendent of Ismail;’ and when their zakat came, he said: ‘This is the zakat of a people,’ or ‘of my people’."’ (Bukhari, Maghazi, 68.)

 

 

This hadith clearly indicates that the rigour of the Tamimites will be used for, and not against, Islam in the final culminating battle against the Dajjal; and this is unquestionably a merit. The second point is less significant, since all the Arabs are descendents of Ismail; while the variant readings of the third point make it difficult to establish its significance in an unambiguous way. Even the most positive interpretation, however, allows us to conclude no more than that the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) was pleased with that tribe at the moment it paid its zakat. As we shall see, its payment of zakat proved to be short-lived.

 

 

Far more numerous are the hadiths which explicitly critique the Tamimites. These hadiths are usually disregarded by pro-Najdite apologists; but traditional Islamic scholarship demands that all, not merely some, of the evidence be mustered and taken as a whole before a verdict can be reached. And a consideration of the abundant critical material on Tamim demonstrates beyond any doubt that this tribe was regarded by the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) and by the Salaf as deeply problematic.

 

 

An early indication of the nature of the Tamimites is given by Allah himself in Sura al-Hujurat. In aya 4 of this sura, He says: ‘Those who call you from behind the chambers: most of them have no sense.’ The occasion for revelation (sabab al-nuzul) here was as follows:

 

In addition to this Qur’anic critique, abundant hadiths also furnish the Umma with advice about this tribe. Since the tacit acceptance of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) constitutes a hadith, we may begin with the following incident.

 

 

This relates to a famous poem by Hassan ibn Thabit (r.a.). The Tamimites were late converts to Islam, joining the religion, after much resistance, only in the Year of Delegations (‘am al-wufud), which was the ninth year of the Hijra. They hence miss the virtue of sabiqa, of precedence in Islam. Coming at last to the Prophet (s.w.s.), the Tamim insisted on a public debate against him, and he appointed Hassan to reply to the Tamimites’ vain boasting about their tribe. Hassan’s ode, which completely defeated and humiliated them by describing the low status of their tribe, can be considered evidence for the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) own view of Tamim, since the condemnation was given in his presence, and there is no record of his criticising it. (Diwan Hassan ibn Thabit [beirut, 1966], p.440; for full details of the incident see Barquqi’s commentary in the same volume. See also Ibn Hisham, Sira [Guillaume translation], p.631.)

 

 

A further hadith concerning Tamim runs as follows:

 

 

On the authority of Imran ibn Husayn (r.a.): ‘A group of Tamimites came to the Prophet (s.w.s.), and he said: "O tribe of Tamim! Receive good news!" "You promise us good news, so give us something [money]!" they replied. And his face changed. Then some Yemenis came, and he said: "O people of Yemen! Accept good news, even though the tribe of Tamim have not accepted it!" And they said: "We accept." And the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) began to speak about the beginning of creation, and about the Throne.’ (Bukhari, Bad’ al-Khalq, 1.)

 

 

The harsh waywardness of the Tamimi mentality documented in the Qur’an and Hadith casts an interesting light on the personality of Abu Jahl, the arch-pagan leader of Quraysh. Abu Jahl, with his fanatical hatred of the Prophet (s.w.s.), must have been shaped by the Tamimi ethic in his childhood. His mother, Asma’ bint Mukharriba, was of the tribe of Tamim. (al-Jumahi, Tabaqat Fuhul al-Shu‘ara, ed. Mahmud Shakir [Cairo, 1952], p.123.) He also married the daughter of ‘Umayr ibn Ma‘bad al-Tamimi, by whom he had his son, predictably named Tamim. (Mus‘ab ibn Abdallah, Nasab Quraysh [Cairo, 1953], p.312.)

 

 

An attribute recurrently ascribed to the Tamimites in the hadith literature is that of misplaced zeal. When they finally enter Islam, they are associated with a fanatical form of piety that demands simple and rigid adherence, rather than understanding; and which frequently defies the established authorities of the religion. Imam Muslim records a narration from Abdallah ibn Shaqiq which runs: ‘Ibn Abbas once preached to us after the asr prayer, until the sun set and the stars appeared, and people began to say: "The prayer! The prayer!" A man of the Banu Tamim came up to him and said, constantly and insistently: "The prayer! The prayer!" And Ibn Abbas replied: "Are you teaching me the sunna, you wretch?"’ (Muslim, Salat al-Musafirin, 6.)

 

 

Banu Tamim and the Khawarij

 

Perhaps the best-known of any hadith about a Tamimite, which again draws our attention to their misplaced zeal, is the hadith of Dhu’l-Khuwaysira:

 

This hadith is taken by the exegetes as a prophecy, and a warning, about the nature of the Kharijites. There is a certain type of believing zealot who goes into religion so hard that he comes out the other side, with little or nothing of it remaining with him. One expert who confirms this is the Hanbali scholar Ibn al-Jawzi, well-known for his hagiographies of Ma‘ruf al-Karkhi and Rabi‘a al-Adawiya. This hadith is taken by the exegetes as a prophecy, and a warning, about the nature of the Kharijites. There is a certain type of believing zealot who goes into religion so hard that he comes out the other side, with little or nothing of it remaining with him. One expert who confirms this is the Hanbali scholar Ibn al-Jawzi, well-known for his hagiographies of Ma‘ruf al-Karkhi and Rabi‘a al-Adawiya. In his book Talbis Iblis. (Beirut, 1403, p.88) under the chapter heading ‘A Mention of the Devil’s Delusion upon the Kharijites’ he narrates the hadith, and then writes: ‘This man was called Dhu’l-Khuwaysira al-Tamimi. [...] He was the first Kharijite in Islam. His fault was to be satisfied with his own view; had he paused he would have realised that there is no view superior to that of Allah’s Messenger (s.w.s.).’

 

 

Ibn al-Jawzi goes on to document the development of the Kharijite movement, and the central role played by the tribe of Tamim in it. Hence (p.89) ‘The commander of the fight [against the Sunnis, at Harura] was Shabib ibn Rab‘i al-Tamimi’; also (p.92) ‘Amr ibn Bakr al-Tamimi agreed to murder Umar’. All this even though their camp sounded like a beehive, so assiduously were they reciting the Qur’an (p.91).

 

 

The Kharijite movement proper commenced at the Siffin arbitration, when the first dissenters left the army of the khalifa Ali (k.A.w.). One of them was Abu Bilal Mirdas, a member of the tribe of Tamim (Ibn Hazm, 223), who despite his constant worship and recitation of the Qur’an became one of the most brutal of the Kharijite zealots. He is remembered as the first who said the Tahkim - the formula ‘The judgment is Allah’s alone’ - on the Day of Siffin, which became the slogan of the later Kharijite da‘wa.

 

 

In his long analysis of the Kharijite movement, Imam Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi also describes the intimate involvement of Tamimites, and of Central Arabians generally, noting that the tribes of Yemen and Hijaz contributed hardly anyone to the Kharijite forces. He gives an account of Dhu’l-Khuwaysira’s later Kharijite activities. Appearing before Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (k.A.w.) he says: ‘Ibn Abi Talib! I am only fighting you for the sake of Allah and the Hereafter!’ to which Imam Ali replies: ‘Nay, you are like those of whom Allah says, "Shall I inform you who are the ones whose works are most in loss? It is they whose efforts are astray in the life of this world, but who think that they are doing good!" [Kahf, 103].’ (Imam Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi, al-Farq bayn al-firaq [Cairo, n.d.], 80; see the note to p.76 for the full identification of Dhu’l-Khuwaysira.)

 

 

As Imam Abd al-Qahir gives his account of the early Kharijite rebellions, replete with appalling massacres of innocent Muslim civilians, he makes it clear that the leaders of each of the significant Kharijite movements hailed from Najd. For instance, the Azariqa, one of the most vicious and widespread Khariji movements, were led by Nafi‘ ibn al-Azraq, who was from the Central Arabian tribe of Banu Hanifa (Abd al-Qahir, 82). As the Imam records, ‘Nafi and his followers considered the territory of those who opposed them to be Dar al-Kufr, in which one could slaughter their women and children. [...] They used to say: "Our opponents are mushriks, and hence we are not obliged to return anything we hold in trust to them.’ (Abd al-Qahir, 84.) After his death in battle, ‘the Azariqa pledged their allegiance to Ubaydallah ibn Ma’mun al-Tamimi. Al-Muhallab then fought them at Ahwaz, where Ubaidallah ibn Ma’mun himself died, along with his brother Uthman ibn Ma’mun and three hundred of the most fanatical of the Azariqa. The remainder retreated to Aydaj, where they pledged their allegiance to Qatari ibn al-Fuja’a, whom they called Amir al-Mu’minin.’ (Abd al-Qahir, 85-6.) The commentator to Abd al-Qahir’s text reminds us that Ibn Fuja’a was also of Tamim (p.86).

 

 

The Azariqa, who massacred countless tens of thousands of Muslims who refused to accept their views, had a rival in the Najdiyya faction of the Kharijites. These were named after Najda ibn Amir, a member of the tribe of Hanifa whose homeland is Najd; Najda himself maintained his army in Yamama, which is part of Najd. (Abd al-Qahir, 87.)

 

 

As is the way with Kharijism in all ages, the Najdiyya fragmented amid heated arguments generated by their intolerance of any dissent. The causes of this schism included the Kharijite attack on Madina, which came away with many captives; and different Kharijite ijtihads over sexual relations with Muslim women who, not being Kharijites, they had enslaved. Three major factions emerged from this split, the most dangerous of which was led by Atiyya ibn al-Aswad, again of the tribe of Hanifa. Following Najda’s death, his own faction split, again into three, one of which left Najd to raid the vicinity of Basra (Abd al-Qahir, 90-1).

 

 

The last major Kharijite sect was the Ibadiyya, which, in a gentler and much attenuated form, retains a presence even today in Zanzibar, southern Algeria, and Oman. The movement was founded by Abdallah ibn Ibad, another Tamimi. Its best-known doctrine is that non-Ibadis are kuffar: they are not mu’mins, but they are not mushriks either. ‘They forbid secret assassinations [of non-Ibadis], but allow open battles. They allow marriages [with non-Ibadis], and inheritance from them. They claim that all this is to aid them in their war for Allah and His Messenger.’ (Abd al-Qahir, 103.)

 

 

The best-known woman among the Kharijites was Qutam bint ‘Alqama, a member of the Tamimite tribe. She is remembered as the one who told her bridegroom, Ibn Muljam, that ‘I will only accept you as my husband at a dowry which I myself must name, which is three thousand dirhams, a male and a female slave, and the murder of Ali!’ He asked, ‘You shall have all that, but how may I accomplish it?’ and she replied, ‘Take him by surprise. If you escape, you will have rescued the people from evil, and will live with your wife; while if you die in the attempt, you will go on to the Garden and a delight that shall never end!’ (Mubarrad, 27.) As is generally known, Ibn Muljam was executed after he stabbed imam Ali (k.A.w.) to death outside the mosque in Kufa.

 

Muslims anxious not to repeat the tragic errors of the past will wish to reflect deeply upon this pattern of events. Tens of thousands of Muslims, fervently committed to the faith and outstanding for their practical piety, nonetheless fell prey to the Kharijite temptation. The ulema trace the origins of that temptation back to the incident of Dhu’l-Khuwaysira, who considered himself a better Muslim than the Prophet himself (s.w.s.). And he, like the overwhelming majority of the Kharijite leaders who followed in his footsteps, was a Tamimi. Of the non-Tamimi Kharijites, almost all were from Najd.

 

 

The Ridda: the First Fitna

 

There is a further issue which Muslims will wish to consider when forming their view of Najd. This is the attitude of the Najdis following the death of the Messenger (s.w.s.). The historians affirm that the great majority of the rebellions against the payment of zakat which broke out during the khilafa of Abu Bakr (r.a.) took place among Najdis. Moreoever, and even more significantly, many of the the Najdi rebellions were grounded in a strange anti-Islamic ideology. The best-known of these was led by Musaylima, who claimed to be a prophet, and who established a rival shari‘a which included quasi-Muslim rituals such as forms of fasting and dietary rules. He also prescribed prayers three times a day. As leader of a rival religion, he and his Najdi enthusiasts were in a state of baghy, heretical revolt against due caliphal authority, and Abu Bakr (r.a.) sent an army against them under Khalid ibn al-Walid. In the year 12 of the Hijra Khalid defeated the Najdis at the Battle of al-Aqraba, a bloody clash that centred on a walled garden which is known to our historians as the Garden of Death, because many great Companions lost their lives there at the hands of the Najdis. (See Abdallah ibn Muslim Ibn Qutayba, Kitab al-Ma‘arif [Cairo, 1960], p.206; Ahmad ibn Yahya al-Baladhuri, Futuh al-buldan [repr. Beirut, n.d., 86.] An indication of the continuity of Najdi religious life is given by the non-Muslim traveller Palgrave, who as late as 1862 found that some Najdi tribesmen continued to revere Musaylima as a prophet. (W. Palgrave, Narrative of a year’s journey through Central and Eastern Arabia [London, 1865], I, 382.)

 

The other ringleader of Najdi rebellion against the khilafa was a woman known as Sajah, whose full name was Umm Sadir bint Aws, and who belonged to the tribe of Tamim. She made claims to prophethood in the name of a rabb who was ‘in the clouds’, and who gave her revelations by which she succeeded in uniting sections of the Tamim who had argued among themselves over the extent to which they should reject the authority of Madina. Leading several campaigns against tribes who remained loyal to Islam, the Najdi prophetess is said to have thrown in her lot with Musaylima. Other than this, little is known of her fate. (Ibn Qutayba, Ma‘arif, p.405; Baladhuri, Futuh, pp.99-100.)

 

 

Recent Najdi Tendencies

 

It is well-known that the Najdi reformer, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, was a Tamimi. The violence and takfir associated with the movement which carries his name surely bears more than a coincidental resemblance to the policies and mindset of the Tamimi Kharijites of ancient Najd. Consider, for instance, the following massacre, of the Shi‘a of Karbala in April 1801, as described by a Wahhabi historian:

 

 

Saud made for Karbala with his victorious army, famous pedigree horses, and all the settled people and bedouin of Najd [...] The Muslims (i.e. the Wahhabis) surrounded Karbala and took it by storm. They killed most of the people in the markets and houses. One cannot count their spoils. They stayed there for just one morning, and left after midday, taking away all the possessions. Nearly two thousand people were killed in Karbala. (Uthman ibn Bishr, Unwan al-Majd fi Tarikh Najd (Makka, 1349), 1, 121-122.)

 

 

It is hard to distinguish this raid, and the brutality of its accomplishment, from the Khariji raids from Najd into the same region a thousand years earlier.

 

 

Muhammad Finati, an Italian convert to Islam who served with the Caliphal army which defeated the Wahhabis, wrote a long first-hand account of the extreme barbarism of the Najdi hordes. For instance:

 

 

Such among us as fell alive into the hands of these cruel fanatics, were wantonly mutilated by the cutting off of their arms and legs, and left to perish in that state, some of whom, in the course of our retreat, I myself actually saw, who had no greater favour to ask than that we would put them to death. (G. Finati, Narrative of the Life and Adventures of Giovanni Finati (London, 1830), I, 287).

 

 

It is sometimes claimed that the days when ‘all the settled people and bedouin of Najd’ would happily commit such mass murder are long gone, and that Wahhabism has become more moderate. But another, more recent example, shows otherwise. In 1924, the Wahhabi army entered the city of Ta’if, plundering it for three days. The chief qadi and the ulema were dragged from their houses and slaughtered, while several hundred other civilians lost their lives. (Ibn Hizlul, Tarikh Muluk Al Sa‘ud [Riyadh, 1961], pp.151-3.) After giving the the Sunni population of the Hijaz this terrorist lesson, ‘Ibn Saud occupied Mecca with Britain’s tacit blessing’ (Alexei Vassiliev, A History of Saudi Arabia [London, 1998], p.264).

 

 

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

A good deal of material concerning Najd and Tamim has been preserved from the time of the Salaf. If we reject the method of some Najdi apologists, a method based on the highly selective quotation of hadiths coupled with the blind imitation of opinions expressed by late-medieval commentary writers, we may reach some reasonably settled and authoritative conclusions regarding Central Arabia and its people. The Qur’an, the sound Hadith, and the experience of the Salaf overwhelmingly concur that Central Arabia is a region of fitna. The first of all fitnas in Islam emerged from that place, notably the arrogance of Dhu’l-Khuwaysira and his like, and also the apostasy and fondness for false prophets which caused such difficulty for Abu Bakr (r.a.). Subsequently, the Kharijite heresy, overwhelmingly Najdi in its roots, cast a long shadow over the early history of Islam, dividing the Muslims, distracting their armies from the task of conquering Byzantium, and injecting rancour, suspicion, and bitterness among the very earliest generations of Muslims. Only the most determined, blinkered and irresponsible Najdi sympathiser could ignore this evidence, transmitted so reliably from the pure Salaf, and persist in the delusion that Najd and the misguided, literalistic rigorism which it recurrently produces, is somehow an area favoured by Allah.

 

 

And Allah knows best. May He unite the Umma through love for the early Muslims who refused bigotry, and may He preserve us from the trap of Kharijism and those who are attracted to its mindset in our time. Amin.

 

Kowneyn

 

 

‘The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) mentioned: "O Allah, give us baraka in our Syria, O Allah, give us baraka in our Yemen." They said: "And in our Najd?" and he said: "O Allah, give us baraka in our Syria, O Allah, give us baraka in our Yemen." They said: "And in our Najd?" and I believe that he said the third time: "In that place are earthquakes, and seditions, and in that place shall rise the devil’s horn [qarn al-shaytan]."’

[sayfulaah-almasluul]

well bro nur, thanx alot for the setting out the point on which i wll build my next post although the lack of time and material required for this kind of research will be an obstcle.

bytheway for your informations i did not come for the rescue of sis sakina i rather intervine to to create an enviroment whereby all can feel common.ans sorry if anyone felt otherwise,

[Beard]

Bismillah,

Kowneyn,

The tribe of Tamim live in Najd, Iraq and extend as far as syria.

Even the present figure head of Iraq, Ghazi Ajil Al-Yawer is a tribal leader.

Some are shia and some are sunni.

How are they relevant to the topic?

The Saudi rulers have not been true to the salafi methodology just as they were not true to Islam. I hope you are not trying to find fault with salafi or Islam for that matter because of the misconduct of the present day rulers.

Please address the issues bro.Nur put forward.

[Nur]

Viking bro

 

You still have not answered why you believe in the absurdities of the Shia I posted, if you have no access to Al Kafi by Kuleiny which I doubt since you mentioned the Rawdah, you can say that if indeed these are found in the Shia literature they are indeed damaging to the credibility of the rest of their concepts which was the reason I posted these materials in the first place, but brother for the sake of fairness, why not take what the Sunnah say and defend the Sunnah against the Shia who blaspheme agianst the most revered generation who ever walked on earth accusing them of heresy after the death of the prophet SAWS? it is OK to lean toward the Shia, but at least categorize what they say, agreeing with some, but the obvious absurdities, ........, you need to take a stand, even hypothetically bro.

 

Now coming back to the theoretical relativistic physics and space time relationship. Once more I feel that you are desperate to discredit what i write about Islam by cleverly using my discusion with Mr. Feinman, as an example.

 

Brother, I did responded to his remarks in length with examples, here it is just to show the audience what my answer was:

 

 

The answer was for a writer who asked specifically about the Soul and hence inquired if it has to do with a Fourth Dimension, my answer was not to delve into a special area in theoretical physics and its accompanying K-Theory of non commutative Geometry in search of a quantum geometry, neither was my response about Super String Theory and the on going reserach on Cohomology mathematical tools that are employed for that quest .

 

My response in laymans langauage said that In Islam, the seen and observed natural world around us known in Quraan as DUNYA is composed of the the space and time, if a final dimension existed which the enquirer referred to us the fourth, I said it is the Ghaib, which Allah alone holds the keys to its myteries .

 

The Ghaib is the unknown, in that regard all unproven theories for which no one has a laboratory big enough, tiny enough, heavy enough, light enough, hot enough , cold enough, fast enough, or slow enough to undertake an experiment is the Ghaib, it is immaterial to suggest nine +1 dimensions theory or 10 + 1, the strings are so wishy washy that nothing is detereministic. But those scientists who carry on these research know their limits and are humble, they dont call people foolish, no decent reseracher uses that language, scientists learn from their reserach assitants and students who at times get confused what their mentor is doing, a "foolish" observation I made in a research environment qualified for a patent application and an IEEE student government grant .

 

Finally here is what Scientsis in the Space time Superstring theory say about their works :

 

" We still don't know what the fundamental theory behind string theory is, but judging from all of these relationships, it must be a very interesting and rich theory, one where distance scales, coupling strengths and even the number of dimensions in spacetime are not fixed concepts but fluid entities that shift with our point of view ."

 

 

Afterwards Mr. Feinman who threw the first stone by delving into the highly theoretical relativistic phyiscs conplained this way:

 

 

" I do not think that was helpful in just throwing big words, which very few people understand, and I am one of them. The guy sitting opposite me spent a year of his lifetime trying to test some of the idea of NCG and did not get anywhere! Let alone me, who did not spend a single day except what I heard in seminars and you expect me to understand it!

 

 

In this thread, we discuss Islam, why bring physics into it like Feinman did and later complained that I was using big words even his coworker is confused about? and is it fair of all the goofs I make, and I do, to pick the most complicated topic for a lay person and then build a case against me?

 

If scientists are all out on this topic, to show that I made an error in such a scientific issue and use that to cast doubt on what I write about islam is malicious at best, and not to respond to any of the meticulously researched materials I posted, makes me unable to think that you are honest, and it is sad, because, if you knowingly distort a truth or side with falshood, Allah may punish you that you may never recognize truth again. Wallahi, I made Duaa for you brother, May Allah guide you to the right path, amin.

 

Nur

[Viking]

You still have not answered why you believe in the absurdities of the Shia I posted,

if you have no access to Al Kafi by Kuleiny which I doubt since you mentioned the Rawdah

, you can say that if indeed these are found in the Shia literature they are indeed damaging to the credibility of the rest of their concepts which was the reason I posted these materials in the first place,

I do NOT believe in any absurdities, if your memory serves you right, you'll have recalled what I said earlier about my beliefs. Bro Nur, I am not a liar (referring to the words in bold) and if you don't believe me, then that's your problem. Are you assuming I am lying because I know about Rawdah? Or know of Koweiny? It's remarks like these that make me lose respect towards you (you thinking that I can't know about Rawdah without being a Shia). I always give you the benefit of the doubt and then you come up with things like these.

 

 

Now coming back to the theoretical relativistic physics and space time relationship. Once more I feel that you are desperate to discredit what i write about Islam by cleverly using my discusion with Mr. Feinman, as an example... In this thread, we discuss Islam, why bring physics into it like Feinman did and later complained that I was using big words even his coworker is confused about? and is it fair of all the goofs I make, and I do, to pick the most complicated topic for a lay person and then build a case against me?

As for the issue of dimensions, you were caught with your pants down however you try to explain it away with other terms. I wasn't trying to discredit you in anyway bro, but just pointing to the facts. There is also another post you wrote about the moon, fasting and water levels in the body. That again is another scientific fallacy that you presented, but am not here to discuss that either.

 

In the issue of physics, Feynman reacted to your theory of "3+1 dimensions in Islam". This is the question he asked you afetr your remarks and I didn't see a clear cut answer or a retraction of the staement. Physics is his field, however, I wouldn't want to talk about his life on the forums but believe me when I tell you that he knows what he is talking about. He was warning you against attributing fallacies to islam, theories that aren't facts. But instead of taking the critisism as a reminder from your brother in Islam, you go on the offensive. That baffles me everytime you do because I have respect for you and don't expect you to react in that manner. I am not out to discredit you sxb, you are failing to give me the benefit of the doubt once again by suspecting me of ill-intentions. Something sternly discouraged in Islam.

 

 

but brother for the sake of fairness, why not take what the Sunnah say and defend the Sunnah against the Shia who blaspheme agianst the most revered generation who ever walked on earth accusing them of heresy after the death of the prophet SAWS?

I have never said anything negative about the Sahaba and haven't seen anyone doing it openly here on the forums. So bro, I don't see anything to defend against. There also isn't a Sh'ia debator here except Mutakalim (the others are asking questions and people are accusing them of being Shi'a), who is yet to come forward with his research.