I am also a Shia too!

[Nur]

Sakina sis

 

You asked me:

 

" My question to brother Nur is are you saying that all the islamic ummah were not following the sunnah till Ibn Abdullah came to save them in the late 1700th? "

 

Answer:

 

 

No, my dear sister, I am not saying that. With all due respect, your question tells me that you have not done your research well, because if you read my post, you will not find a SINGLE reference to Ibn Abdullah.

 

What I said in a nutshel is that

 

1. Shiism, has not been the same throughtout the ages.

 

3. The original Shia, ( Phase 1, and Two) where not even a Madhab, they were the core Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacah, the support of Ali was the right thing to do at that time.

 

2. Present day Shiism represents a stark departure from the original teachings of the Imaams which was greatly affected by the ( Ghuluw) extremism of the Shia during the absence of their missing Imaam ( Al Ghaybatul Sughraa) 65 years of reporting from a missing Imaam, and ascribing all the stories to him.

5. If you read the summary of my work you can see the proof from your Shia books.

 

I pray for your salvation and all other Shia brothers and sisters, Amin.

 

Nur

[Nur]

Mutakallim bro.

 

 

Thanks for your patience, it was learning journey for me, I feel that I could write a book after compiling so much of the Shia sources around me, I hope it was the same for you. Now the flor is all yours and I am all ears (eyes) to read and respond to you.

 

I hope that in order to reach an agreement or decide to disagree that we first stick to definition that we use , like

 

1. Shia (As Defined in Arabic Language)

 

2. Imaam ( As Defined in Arabic Language)

 

3, Ilaah, God ( As Defined in Arabic Language)

 

4. Bidaa ( As Defined in Arabic Language)

 

6. Rajcah ( As Defined in Arabic Language)

 

7. Cismah of Imaams( Infallibility)

 

 

Nur

[Sakina]

Assalamu Alaykum brother Nur

 

The Quran tells us not to be suspicious of each other. Only because I've decided to speak about the injustice done to our brothers/sisters shias you assume that I am a shia too. I follow the Quran and the sunna. We have to admit thought that there are a lot of unanswered questions about our past history. From my own research I came to the conclusion that some of our history is very dark as the shias claim and we have to face it and find an answer for it. I am going to ask you some questions that some shias posed to me and after doing my research and with my limited knowledge unfortunately I came to the conclusion they are pretty accurate. Maybe you can give me answers from our books such us Bukhari and Muslim and please I do not want to know what Ibn Tamiyya's opinion is we all know that.

1) What happened in "The dark Thursday" when our beloved Prophet (s.w.w) asked for pen and paper so he could dictate us something that would not divide us and Omar said that the Prophet (s.w.w.) was delirious do not give him anything (Hint look in Sahih Muslim)

 

2) What happend in Saqifa? Who was present there and how was the first Khalifa choosen?

 

3) Why Fatima bint Rasulullah was angry at the Khalifa and his supporters till the time she passed away?

 

4) Who was at the head of the first civil war between the muslim ummah the war of Jamal and who was at the head of that war?

 

5)How many times Abu Bakr fainted in his deathbed and yet he was allowed to write his will and was not called delirious?

 

I have many more question but for now Insha Allah I'll wait for the reply for these ones. I am seriously trying to find the truth. Some of my family members decided to follow the Wahhabi/Salafi sect and they are not allowed to ask questions only blind following of the sect.

Whenever I ask questions they tell me you are westernized or are you still following the Shafis? Therefore I am not surprise that people would call me a shia only because I want to verify if what they are telling is the truth or not.

 

I would like to ask some questions to brother Mutakkalim:

1)Does the quran tell us to follow the 12 Imams?

2)Abubakar and Omar said that Prophets(a.s) do not leave inheritance then why Fatima wanted Fadak?

3)If Ali ibn Abu Talib was angry with Omar then why he was answering all his fiqh questions at a point that Omar said I would be ruined without Ali?

 

May Allah guide us all to the right path.

Sakina

[Coloow]

Assalamu calaykum,

 

This is one of the best discussion that I have ever read on any website.

 

I think the sunni/shia divide is nothing more than a school of thought on cibaada. The issues of race|politics have certainly played a vital role in our own knowledge of what the other party is. A somali, educated in Qom would certainly blv in the principles of shaisim, while a sacuudi educated sheikh is likely to depart from the arab perspective.

 

If you discuss with shia sheikhs, you would note that much of what we have been told in somalia by our sheikhs had a lot to with discourse fuelled by hatred that is embedded in politics and that there is no demarcation line between the two in terms of the intepretations of the quraan.

 

At the end of the day does it really matter whether we are shias, sunnis or any other muslim denomination? We are all muslims and our task is to submit to Allah.

[Nur]

Dear Sister Sakina:

 

You dont have to hide being a Shia, it is OK, because if you dont admit being one you can not be helped. A have defined Shia to mean in Arabic a Supporter of Ali RAA,. so in that regard all of the Muslims in the workd are Shia.

 

The problem of who should lead the Ummah as Imam after the death of teh Prophet SAWS was not as reported by the NEW Shia, who have fabricated much of what you have read in history to make a case for their existence that began in the Khilafa of Ali and took a tailspin afterwards during the purported absence of the Kid Imaam for 65 years who communicated form his hideout through three guys who pretty much highjacked Shiism to the point of make absurd unbelievable stories such as when they claimed that a Donkey talked to the prophet SAWS.

 

Now , let us assume that you dont believe Sunnis either, that is fine sis. So let us get to the bottom of this in a deductive or inductive reasoning like detectives. let us ask smart questions.

 

1. If Ali was the rightful Khalifa, who the prophet SAWS assigned to be the next KHalifa or imaam, whay did he give bayca to Abu Bakar? We will not accept that he did it for TUQYA, because if that was the case, he would have done it with the Khawarij, Ali was a brave man, he spoke his mind and never accepted falshood, if he did accepted falsehood, how can he be brave khalifah?

 

2. We all know that the Companions,how much they have sacrificed for the Prophet SAWS, how much they loved him and his family, here are some examples of how much they loved the Prophet SAWS

 

a. The Prophet SAWS married Abu Bakar's daughter

 

b. Othman married two daughters of the Prophet SAWS, he was nicknamed "Dhul Nurein" Double Lighted" companion

 

c. Omar asked Ali for the hand of his daughter in marriage, when Ali asked why, Omar said, he wants to feel the progeny of the Prophet SAWS because of his love for Alal beit, Omar married Ali's daughter.

 

d. The Conmpanions were willing to sacrifice their lives for the Prophet SAWS.

 

Now after his death, all in a sudden they conspire agianst his advice and usurp power and do injustice to Ali and Fatima?

 

What could be the driver for so many companions who served so well to change so swiftly to become Kuffar as Kuleiny and other Shia Scolars report and you seem to believe.

 

Was it:

 

Money: you know better than that!

 

Love of Power: you know that none of the Khalifas, Abubakar, Omar or Othman allowed his kids to be khalifa after them, so that rules out!

 

May be they all became Crazy.... . that is better than being Kuffar, but can all of them except three guys go crazy knowing there was no Qat to chew like in Somalia, that is why we have Civil war in Sonalia, because of Qat! and Qabil!

 

 

Tell me sis what would be the driver for something even you would not do, are you and me better than the companions of the Prophet SAWS?

 

 

3. Why would Ali say this statement in the most respected book of the Shia: source Nahjul Balaagha:

 

" I was elected by the same people who have elected Abu bakar, Omar and Othman whith the same mandate as theirs, so neither does a present person has a right to elect nor an absent person have the right to reject (as the same committee elected me with the same mandate), because the Shuraa consultative election is for the Muhaajirs and the Ansaar, and they have unanimously elected a man and they named him an IMAAM, an action that pelased Allah SWT, so in case a person dissents their choice by a slander, or introduces a Bidcah, (innovation ) bring him back to his sense, if he refuses, fight him for his (crime) of following a different path than that of the believers" source ; Nahjul Balaagha, Volume 3, page 7 .

 

 

Shifta Bro.

 

Good to hear from you again, did you read the whole thread or part of it Bro? your comment seems politically correct.

 

 

Nur

[Coloow]

Nuurow, mahadsanid. Bro, maya ma aanan wada aqrinin dooda (waan indha indheeyey un). Ummadda islaamku waa isku nabi, isku kitaab kala mabda se.

 

Maanta xaalku wuxuu taaganyahay yaa muslin- oo marxalad adag ayaa lagu jiraa. Doodaha ku dhisan firiqooyinka inkastoo aay fiicanyihiin haddana waxaad moodaa inaay siyaasad ku jirto.

 

Anyway from a warm Mandera waa dhal awliyo oo idin leh nabadiino iyo nooli kulante!

[Nur]

Shifta bro.

 

You sure are having good time in Mandheera, you must be envied fro such a great life, are any of your rural development taking off, let me know if you need assistance from e-Nuri Renewable Energy Research, we theorize the use of accoustic energy of Fadhi-Ku -Direr people to power an entire village. How are the Garam garams, I only passed through their territory running on foot to save my life, How is life in Garmgaramland? Nowadays I like all of garamgarams because of your great personality, so next time I come through I have to cool down with a Haroob buuxa of caano geel, inshAllah. Take Care.

 

Nur

[Sakina]

Asalamu Alaykum brother Nur

 

You haven't answered even one question that I asked you and if you read carefully I also aske d questions to brother Mukallim and I am hoping he'll answer me and not accuse me of being a Wahhabi. As I told you before I follow only the Quran and Sunna. I don't belong to any madhab. The way you replied is the same way Wahhabis reply accusing others of something and derailing from the topic. Are you saying that Muslim the author of Sahih Muslim was a shia?

[Nur]

Sakina sis

 

You write: " I found that most of the propaganda against the shias are coming from the Wahhabis. Wahhabis call themselves Salafis because people started asking questions about the Sheikh they follow Mohammed Ibn Abdullah Wahhab. Infact his own brother Ismail and father were against him. So he made an alliance with Saud and they took over all the Arabian Peninsula"

 

 

Answer:

 

Since you have done "Research" and found out about the "Wahabis" which you imply I belong, since they are those more likely to make " Propoganda" against the Shia, could you please as a scholar who made research DEFINE :

 

1. What is Wahaabism?

2. Who coined this term?

3. Who are the Salafis?

4. Are you sure that the Sheikh's name is " Mohammed Ibn Abdullah Wahhab" because if this is the way yo do research, at least you should get names right, His name is Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, not Abdullah Wahhab as you wrote and its no Typo error.

5. Since you claim to be a neutral person, why do you say what is said about the Shia is Propoganda, and what the Shia say about the Sunnah is NOT. to be believed as a neutral pesron who is doing research, you need to listen both sides, then make a non prejudiced judgement based on evidence presented. That way you will be respected, otherwise, if you dont read what is written and try to divert the discussion to Conspiracy theories claiming that Wahaabism was invented by the British empire, I will be careful not to call you an impartial researcher.

Allah knows what you indeed are, and what you are concealing, It is not easy to think well about a person who follows people who believe that all the companions became Kuffar after the death of the Prophet SAWS.

 

 

Nur

[Sakina]

Asalamu Alaykum brother

 

I am sorry if I've offended you. I never said you were a Wahhabi but that is not the point. I am not interested in what shia or sunni call each other. I just want to get some answers to my questions. Both sunnis and shias are wrong calling eachother kuffar after all they do pray side by side during Hajj time. We need to be open minded and stick to the topic only by answering all the questions. I am not conceiling anything I believe Allah is everywhere and He is closer to me than my jugular vein. Only Allah knows what is in our hearts. Well since I am not getting any answers to my questions from you I'll just wait Mutakalim to answer my questions about shias hoping that he is open minded. "Mindes are like parachutes they work only when they are open".

Again Brother Nur forgive me if I've unintentionally offended you.

Wa Salaam

Sakina

[Kowneyn]

Assallaamucaleykum Sakina:

 

The Wilayah of Ali cs and his progeny (the imams) and their excellence is clear as day-light, as it was declared by Rasulullaah ( saws) and is affirmed daily in our prayer. However, our prophet (saws) also knew that the Ummah and the khilafa would come full circle to the ahlul bayt by way of the last Imam (cs).

 

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (SWT) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it till they pass it to a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) ought to come to them even if crawling on the ice/snow since among them is the Vice-regent of Allah (Khalifatullah) al-Mahdi.

 

Our prophet (saws) declared the wilayah of Cali cs and his progeny but declared only the rejection of the al-Mahdi cs as kuffur.

 

Moreover, we are in no position to find faults with the best of man-kind, the khulafa uraashidin, sayiddina Abu Bakr rac, Cumar rac and Cusman rac - wether we are shia or sunni we must all confirm their excellence and the righteousness of their position.

 

I will leave nur and mutakallim to sought the rest out.

 

Kowneyn

[Viking]

"O ye who believe! Shun much suspicion ; for lo! some suspicion is a crime" (Al-Hujurat 49:12)

 

Nur,

Give the sister a break! You called her a Shi'a against her will, ignored her questions and instead chose to pose your own. I got the same treatment from you in the beginning and found it very unpleasant, especially coming from someone with a vast knowledge of our Deen.

[Nur]

Viking Bro.

 

What makes you think that suspecting a person to be a Shia is necessarily a bad thing?

 

As my thread says, " I am also a Shia too " with double confirmation, Being A Shia as we defined is being a defendant of Ali RAA and his supporter ( Waliyy) , I said over and aver, that all Sunnis are in this regard (WALIYY) to Ali and his place in the Khilafa. The sister clearly has confirmed that she believs what she called Wahhabis to be making Propoganda against Shia, which no matter how you slice that statement, she is a sympathizer and supporter, thus a Shia. You dont need a certificate to be a Shia, just thinl like them.

 

My main point in this thread has been the differentiation of Shiism today as represented in their books ( Kaafi, Bihaarul Anwaar etc) and Shiisam in Ali's time, which I have clearly demarcated like Geological times.

 

In a discussion, debators will say statements that tell a lot about their stand no matter how much they try to conceal. For example, In this thread Q, or Feinman began debating as a third person, it was that sensitivity and my awareness of past tactics in past discussion that makes me bold to challenge debators to be transparent in the disussion, not making rings and calling a spade a spade. The sister, with all due respect, is masquarading, she has not interest whatsoever in referring to any of my post and she presents a fresh new question lists that show that she is on to some other mission, well, in that case, I do not accept divertion tactics, she needs to ask question on what has been presnted, either agreeing or disagreeing, but to ignore all that meticulously copliled and verified references from shia books, is a an intellectual fraud at best.

 

 

Nur

[Sakina]

SURAH Al-HUJURAT verse 11

 

 

“ O you who have faith! Do not let men make fun of other men- perhaps they may be better than the other (group of men). Also, do not let women make fun of other women, as it may be that they are better than the other (group of) women. Do not find faults in yourselves and do not defame one another by using bad names. How bad it is after having true faith that a person (does these acts) but does not turn in repentance (to Allah) so then surely it is these people who are the oppressors.â€

[Nur]

Sakina sis

 

Allah also says; " O ye who believe, why do you say things you yourselves do not act on, It is indeed earning you Allah's wrath that you say that which you don't act upon" Al Saff verses 1-2.

 

Dear Sis

 

First you make fun of Wahhabis, then you suggest that they changed their name to Salafis, then like you say you believe the Shia version that Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab was a working for Saud, which in accodring to the Shia sources you read , implies that he was not good man therefore should not be believed, and then you call the facts that I presented " Wahhabi Propoganda"

 

Amazingly you've also missed the spirit of the verses that you have posted, the spirit was to make Muslims United in doing good and stopping evil and worshipping Allah SWT alone, so the verse before that one in Suurah Al Hujuraat orders us to mediate quarrelling parties with impartiality, which you have not shown in your parlance.

 

Sister, based on above observation, is there a chance that the verse in Surah Al Hujuraat applies to you also? if yes, then why don't you tell that to the Shia to think well about Aisha RAA who Allah SWT sent a whole Chapter Suurah Al Nur, to clear her name and the Shia are so bent on defaming her in their literature, also her Father, the Prophet's BEST FRIEND, Omar the Just , and the man who married two daughters of the Prophet SAWS Othman, all of which the Shia believe they are Kuffar along with all the companions except for three companions. You can find that out by doing more Research, and according to the records in this thread if you have any interest to dig for truth?

 

When I critisize your thoughts, I am critizing ideas that have no place in Islam, Poison that is being sugar coated for non suspecting people like you, I am NOT CRITISIZING YOU PERSONALLY, just the thoughts that you espouse, so do not make your person the object of this thread. This thread was opened to educate poeple about the Shia School of Thought in full transparency, so before you buy the whole package called Shia, become an educated consumer of thoughts, read my research and then correct me if I am wrong, however if you throw a direspectful salvo at great Muslims like Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, without clear proofs, then you may not be happy with responses like mine.

 

Peace

 

Nur