I am also a Shia too!

[Nur]

Mutakallim

 

Welcome back, like they say in Egyptian slang, " Nawwartal Xittah yaa baash muhandis" your relaxed style this time around and jolly mood should lead us to an intellectual discussion delving far beyond the surface, deep into the realm of the fabric of the Islamic aqaed and fundemental building blocks., from there, we can rise high up, to seek our common ilaah, Allah SWT alone in unison.

 

Yes, I kept the relatively heavy concepts to digest that divide us for later, in order not to be a one man show. I am half way through my report, Bidaa and Rajcah stacking up high on my report, thus your participation and rebuttals are highly appreciated as they create a different point of view which is always healthy thing as it either reenforces truth or contrasts it like day and night for all to notice, and the sooner the better, now that most viewers have matured and the initial shockwave has passed, inshaAllah, I will be looking forward for your compilation with interest.

 

 

Nur

[Mutakalim]

Nur

 

Wa iyyaaka yowman an tumaazixa jaahilan

fatulqii alladii laa tashtahii xiina yamzaxu

[Kowneyn]

Nur,

 

I have noted my last post got you little flustered. First let me clarify, one does not have to write volumes to impart wisdom and meaning, nor is the idea at least in matters of religion to impress with “prowess of persuasionâ€. I think the goal should be to do justice to Islam(religion) and the ummah(person) by being not only knowledgeable and wise, but fair, meaningful, sincere—without hidden agendas.

 

Now, regarding the definition of ahlul sunnah vs salafi, I don’t have to go too far to clarify that. Here is a quote from your fellow salafi online

 

“rainbow “WE†refers to anyone one who follows the manhaj of the Salaf us Salih, the three generation of the Muslims, "We" refers to all the sisters and brother who follow the KitabiLah Wa sunnah of the messenger of Allah(saw) with the understanding of the Salaf Us Salih, we do not baptizes ourselves with the title Shaf’ee, Hanafees, Malike’s or Hanbalies! Our Madhab is that of the Salaf us Salih! The Companions, the tabee’een and the at-tatabee’en,â€.

 

In addition, to the substance of the statement, make note of also the attitude toward the ahlal sunnah and the terminology being employed, namely the inference of baptism.

 

Next is a quote from you essentially saying the same thing albeit with more diplomacy.

 

“I still believe that Salafi or Sunni, or any name that is not simply "Muslim" is an innovation, because neither the Messenger of Allah nor the Khulafaa have sanctioned these names, thus they are bidcah. Howver one can say, "I a Muslim, and I strive to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad SAWS and the GOOD SALAF".

 

Being the responsible e-scholar you are will you atleast concede that in matters of SHARIAH by consensus the ulema of the ahlul sunnah have recognized the four imams and even have restricted the ahlul sunnah wa jamaca within the confines of the four madaa’hib. Moreover, that the madhabs are not bidca but a necessary safeguard of religion and that the limitations were placed to prevent exactly the kind of confusion that salafi online and to a lesser extent you are advocating.

 

Regarding me and the shia, the point I was trying to make was simple one Nur, I am not shia but there is nothing wrong with being one. I am not here to defend their literature or scholars the shia in this forum are more than capable of doing it. My stand is simple again that the difference between sunnah and shia has never reached the level of takfir and tashrik, until the wahhabi/salafi movement.

 

One of the main hang-up of wahhabi/salafis is tawassul, a concept accepted by both the sunnah and shia. I will post something to help those who misunderstand what tawassul entails.

 

Lastly you said:

 

“but the way you are reacting to my effort to save your soul and others bent on staying on false hopes, tells me that the medicines are working, but for a medicine to work on sick hearts it hurts, which explains the verse in the Quraan where Allah SWT says " And when the worship of Allah alone is called for, the hearts of those who do not believe in the heareafter (the proper belief) become annoyed, and when other than Allah is mentioned, you find them rejoicing"â€.

 

Nur, I know I ruffled your feather a little, but com ’on this is an ayat addressing the polytheist, the quran categorizes and addresses even the ahlul kitab differently. Which begs the question can any one in his right mind, save a wahhabi/salafi, use such a verse on a muslim, like me???.

 

Sxb, don’t take it too personal or misunderstand what I am doing, I have my reasons and my peculiar ways and it has nothing to do with that ayat(God forbid). I have called your writing rubbish because the INSINUATION of takfir and tashrik as Allah is my witness makes it rubbish.

 

Mutakalim,

 

You are right that ignorance is part of the shia vs sunni prejudice, but with wahhabi/salafism there is more at play—including 1) arrogance of its chief proponents and 2) a well orchestrated and well financed propaganda that has victimized poor nations the most. Wahhabism is a menace to the Ummah, because they are fundamentally opposed to believes and practices accepted in both shia and sunnah and worse they believe they are the saved sect and are violently intolerant against any other understanding then their own.

 

Although, I am not ready or interested to refute the details of Nur’s argument against the shia, nevertheless if you go back to where I entered this argument and you are perceptive enough to understand why, u will see why I felt it necessary.

 

If the shia in this forum want a meaningful discussion with sunnis then its crucial that all the variables are on the table and the Wahhabi confounding factor is first addressed. That is if we are interested in doing justice to islam and the ummah (shia and sunni) and are not simply engaging in some Darwinian exercise of “persuasion prowessâ€.

 

Finally, I hope the shia feel less intimidated and without the need to defend themselves anonymously and I hope the sunni majority of this forum are not and don’t feel being prostelyzed to.

 

 

Kowneyn

[Mutakalim]

Kowneyn

 

At the risk of derailing further this thread, I will pose one last question. Think you the doctrinal differences between the shia and ahlu sunnah are a small matter? You must needs apprehend that the discrepencies between the two ideologies, above-mentioned, are indeed profound disagreements. I think Nur and I share this point: being a shia or a sunni is not the same as being a maliki or shafici. The disagreement in the former is a fundemental, doctrinal difference while the latter is merely a juridical difference.

 

P.S. I find your sense of justice admirable. A minority group would never be subjugated and repressed under your watch.

[Khayr]

Salaamz,

So let me get this right

 

Nur-I'm sunni and do not accept the shia

Mutakalim-I'm shia and the differences btwn sunnia and shia are too 'fundmental', therefor what? Both Aqida's can't be right? Can't be Islam?

 

Kowneyen-You're posts against the Salaf are more gentle this time around (see 2002 posts) Alhamdulillah. So you advocate that we COOPERATE with each other and Hold on to the Rope of Allah (Sabiru wa Rabuti) but yet still be Different/have difference of opinion right?

 

Question to Nur and Philo-King

AT WHAT POINT DID YOU XAWA'S/EGO'S TAKE OVER YOUR ARGUMENTS?

 

Cause that is All I see at PLAY!

 

Fi Amanillah

[Nur]

Kheyr Bro.

 

You write:

 

"AT WHAT POINT DID YOU XAWA'S/EGO'S TAKE OVER YOUR ARGUMENTS"

 

 

Answer:

 

First, the word " XAWA spelled in Arabiac as: "(حواء), if read in Somali, it is (Eve) or Women, but I assume that you may have misprinted the term. You may have meant the Arabic word AHWAA (أهواء), meaning whims in English.

 

Secondly: I would be very thnakful if you can show me where in my write up you see me follow my whims and departing from the path of Islam, because I made my vocation to work for Islam and the last thing that I like to waste my valuabe time is self glory which will not get me anywhere close to Allah SWT if that is the driver behind my efforts.

 

Thirdly, the question is one of those tricky philosophical questions like " when did you really fall asleep?" when people follow their whims as you have described me and Mutakallim, they would not have any idea when they went off track, but an observer like you, would know the answer, so be kind again, and tell us the answer to your question becasue in all honesty I can't.

 

Fourthly, If after reading the entire thread, that was the only comment you have, it leaves me with three possibilities

 

1. You do not understand the issues

2. You do understand the issues, but you careless

3. You did not read the issues deeper enough to make an intellectual contribution, so to be seen as sophistacated, you hastely post a response to put everyone down with a thoughtless comment like that.

 

Which one is true Bro.?

 

 

Please enlighten me, I always enjoy your comments.

 

 

Nur

[Nur]

Kowneyn Bro.

 

Thanks for your response, a world of difference in style and content than last one, even we disagree on every point, the discussion remains enjoyable and purposeful. We need to separate our persons from the issues, that way, we keep our karaamah, yet debate very seriously on the issues.

 

I will come back with my thoughts on your post soon.

 

 

Nur

[Kowneyn]

Khayr:

 

Laftiina jabisay xarrogana kamaad tegin

 

A wise verdict concisely put.

 

You right and much has changed since 2002 , as Sayyiduna –Ali (cs), when asked about the khawarij whom he fought fiercely, famously said, "They are our brothers, who have rebelled against us,"

 

You had the last word, I will give the floor back to the two entrenched e-scholars hoping they will come to terms with the verdict and not disappoint us any further.

 

Nur,

 

No hard feelings sxb, btw the proverb u used was not culturally appropriate, I am a Somalilander from Burco what do i know about dhadhan muufo?

 

Kowneyn

[Nur]

Kowneyn bro.

 

You write: " I am a Somalilander from Burco what do i know about dhadhan muufo? "

 

 

Lol, The gabay was selected from the South of Somalia, have you ever heard villages named:

 

Massaggawaa

Cadale

Raage Ceelle

Dirin

Masajid Cali gaduud

 

Muuffo is e very good smelling bread made from fresh ground corn prepared in an underground home made ceramic oven called Tinnaar, the Muuffo has a great smell, and taste, hence the " Dhahdhan Muffaa leh"

 

As a Burco guy, the best equivalent I can think of in the Burco culinary culture is the " Bariis Dhari", great smelling rise steaming with aroma pf the oven and fresh goat meat, uuuuuuumh. I am getting hungry.

 

By the way, Don't you think that you should be more familiar with the other Somalilands cultures, by looking south, instead of the western world in which some of us are forced to live as refugees from anarchy?

 

I Think I am going to start a new thread to educate nomads about their different cultures and lands.

 

 

Nur

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Nur:

Kheyr Bro.

 

You write:

 

"AT WHAT POINT DID YOU XAWA'S/EGO'S TAKE OVER YOUR ARGUMENTS"

 

 

Answer:

 

First, the word "

XAWA spelled in Arabiac as: "(حواء), if read in Somali, it is (Eve) or Women, but I assume that you may have misprinted the term. You may have meant the Arabic word AHWAA (أهواء), meaning whims in English.

 

Secondly: I would be very thnakful if you can show me where in my write up you see me follow my whims and departing from the path of Islam, because I made my vocation to work for Islam and the last thing that I like to waste my valuabe time is self glory which will not get me anywhere close to Allah SWT if that is the driver behind my efforts.

 

Thirdly, the question is one of those tricky philosophical questions like " when did you really fall asleep?" when people follow their whims as you have described me and Mutakallim, they would not have any idea when they went off track, but an observer like you, would know the answer, so be kind again, and tell us the answer to your question becasue in all honesty I can't.

 

Fourthly, If after reading the entire thread, that was the only comment you have, it leaves me with three possibilities

 

1. You do not understand the issues

2. You do understand the issues, but you careless

3. You did not read the issues deeper enough to make an intellectual contribution, so to be seen as sophistacated, you hastely post a response to put everyone down with a thoughtless comment like that.

 

Which one is true Bro.?

 

 

Please enlighten me, I always enjoy your comments.

 

 

Nur

Salaamz,

As to your 'Disecting of Linguistics' in my case,

 

XAWA was used and from this ayat

أَرَءَيْتَ مَن٠اتَّخَذَ Ø¥Ùلَـهَه٠هَوَاهÙ

 

هَوَاهÙMeaning His own desires/thoughts/ego etc.

 

and in arabic, most arabics words originate from 3 HARAF/LETTER words (XA-WOOW-ALF)

 

In anycase, I don't understand why you 'PICKED on that point' unless it was for ???

 

Secondly: I would be very thnakful if you can show me where in my write up you see me follow my whims and departing from the path of Islam

Saxib, you don't need to start several threads trying to put DOWN other ULAMA and their students b/c you don't agree with them and you find that

everyone should follow your LINE OF THINKING.

 

Allah created the DAY AND NIGHT and they both serve his purpose (the Play of Opposites) for if we just had the SUN all the time, we wouldn't appreciate it and likewise if we had the MOON and no SUN, we would never be able to comprehend why we would need something other then the MOON.

 

" when did you really fall asleep?" when people follow their whims as you have described me and Mutakallim, they would not have any idea when they went off track, but an observer like you, would know the answer, so be kind again, and tell us the answer to your question becasue in all honesty I can't.

Saxib, so much effort was spent in trying to convience other nomads to think like YOU and to call millions of muslims KUFFAR/Deviants from Islam. TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT???

 

If we take your LINE OF THINKING, then what

HAVE WE ACCOMPLISHED? Better Ibada?Better Mumins cause now we are RIGHTLY GUIDED?

 

You do understand the issues, but you careless

 

3. You did not read the issues deeper enough to make an intellectual contribution, so to be seen as sophistacated, you hastely post a response to put everyone down with a thoughtless comment like that.

It wasn't a hastley made COMMENT, as I do more observing then talking/Posting on SOL.

If you took it as a PERSONAL ATTACK (Mutakalim was involved too), then saxib I can't help that.

It was an OBSERVATION and TIME WILL TELL if my comment was right or not. So far, its proving to be right as I have hit up on a certain spot.

 

Fi Amanillah

[Nur]

Kheyr bro.

 

You did not upset me for sure, I am entertained by your thoughts. There is a saying taht goes like this,

 

"If you want to know if someone is thinking clearly, make them write a page". if the above response to the detailed questions I posed for you are representative of your thinking process, and logic, it leaves a lot to be desired bro. Because I expected more substance from you honestly, what i read justifies that I should ignore about your comments in the future.

 

 

Nur

[Mutakalim]

Saxib, you don't need to start several threads trying to put DOWN other ULAMA and their students b/c you don't agree with them and you find that everyone should follow your LINE OF THINKING.

 

You are, it seems, the sole member who continues to harbour that sentiment. In the intial stages of the discussion, put downs by many members (including myslef ) were pervasive and omnipresent. That that tranistory feeling of hostility intially present, still has not been extinguished is untrue; know you the marked difference then than now?

 

Niether Nur nor I are here to "put down" people; but we are here to bring to light the legitimacy and logicality of our respective ideologies. I do not desire to talk to Nur or anyone for that matter, instead I will talk to Nur's "ideas"; talking with ideas is far more productive than talking to people. Of course, there must needs be a person who utters those "ideas"

 

I'm shia and the differences btwn sunnia and shia are too 'fundmental', therefor what? Both Aqida's can't be right? Can't be Islam?

 

Yes. The two beliefs, Shiism and Ahlu Sunnah, are mutually exclusive. There is no compromise in the territory of 'aqaid. I think my implication is rather clear.

 

Finally, your comment about Hawaa and the subsequent didactic post you wrote, I wish not to address. Though I will emphasize once more that this is a discussion of ideologies not a disparagment of people.

 

Nur

 

Brother do tell me when you have completed your postings on the 'aqaid so I can address your posts point-by-point. I do not wish to address each post at a time because I find it less taxing to write one detailed response as opposed to several less explicate posts. Take as much time as thou requires, patiently shall I await your conclusion.

[Kowneyn]

"Yes. The two beliefs, Shiism and Ahlu Sunnah, are mutually exclusive. There is no compromise in the territory of 'aqaid. I think my implication is rather clear."

 

Says who? I think Imam Jacfar al-Saadiq cs and his students imam abu hanifa and malik (rac) would disagree and so would imam Musa Al-kadhim cs and Imam shaafici (rac). If you see no compromise why don’t you spare us and busy your self with looking scholarly in the debate room.

 

Kowneyn

[Mutakalim]

Kownenyn

 

It is a classical logical fallacy to assert the authority of a personage without expounding further, the "unadulterated" meaning of the scholar. In other words, what have Imam Musa and others said precisely?

 

As to your comment about appearing scholarly, by God, I do not apprehend. Pray, do expound the meaning you want me to infer therefrom.

[Sakina]

Assalamu Alaykum brothers/sisters;

 

I am pleased to see that both sect sunnis and shias are finally debating. I am doing a research on almost all the schools of thoughts (Malikis, Hanifis, Hambalis, Shafi,Shias(several of them) and the Wahhabi/Salafis.) I found that most of the propaganda against the shias are coming from the Wahhabis. Wahhabis call themselves Salafis because people started asking questions about the Sheikh they follow Mohammed Ibn Abdullah Wahhab. Infact his own brother Ismail and father were against him. So he made an alliance with Saud and they took over all the Arabian Peninsula. My question to brother Nur is are you saying that all the islamic ummah were not following the sunnah till Ibn Abdullah came to save them in the late 1700th? I would also like to know if Imam Malik and Imam Hanifa thought that it was useful for them to study under Imam Sadiq clearly they consider him not only a muslim but a knowledgeable Alim. We might not consider him an Imam but we should respect his knowledge and status as did our own Imams Malik and Hanif. Therefore shiasm is another school of thought as are the Malikis, Hambalis, Shafis and Hanafis.

May Allah guide us all.

Sakina

 

MANNERS OF TALKING

 

1) Do not begin a conversation without first greeting the person you are talking to.

 

2) Keep away from a conversation which is without an aim or object for it lowers your position.

 

3) WAIT TO SPEAK AT THE RIGHT OPPORTUNITY; MANY SPEAK THE TRUTH BUT NOT AT THE RIGHT TIME AND THEREFORE FACE DISRESPECT.

 

4) Do not argue with a patient person for he will win over you with the power of his patience.

 

5) Do not argue with foolish and ignorant people as they will hurt you with their nonsense.

 

6) You may only do that gheebat (backbiting) of a person what you would like him to speak of you.