Interview with Minister of Land and Settlement [Moulid Macane]

[General Duke]

Interview with Minister of Land and Settlement

 

JOWHAR, 2 Aug 2005 (IRIN) - Even as Somalia tries to lift itself out of the devastation caused by nearly a-decade-and-a-half of civil war, fears abound that land disputes will erupt when the interim government becomes fully operational, threatening the country’s stability once more.

 

In an interview with IRIN at the temporary seat of government in Jowhar, 90 km north of the capital, Mogadishu, the Minister of Land and Settlement, Mowlid Mani Mohamed, said plans were being drawn up to address questions of land ownership. Below are excerpts from the interview:

 

QUESTION: What is the first issue your ministry plans to tackle in Somalia?

 

ANSWER: The first issue is how to negotiate between those who are completely landless, because there are a lot of land disputes in Somalia after 15 years of catastrophe. There are people who looted plans [and] people who openly snatched land from other people. The biggest problem we shall face is how to solve the problem of land disputes.

 

Q: How do you plan to go about this?

 

A: We cannot absolutely force the people to give up the occupied land seized by gunmen. The solution is to use the traditional method to convince the person and to use traditional leaders to tell the occupier that he must leave the land. We cannot force them or use guns to get them to leave occupied land. We want to use our own traditional methods to vacate the land occupied by gunmen in Somalia.

 

Q: It sounds like a daunting task. Do you have records of titles to help you define who owns what?

 

A: We do, because all lands issued before the civil war broke out were recorded by the local government - in Mogadishu and every local government, in every village and city. All those records are still available, we can get them.

 

After the civil war [broke out], no one could issue permits or authorisation for owning a plot of land. So we will use the old records because these are the only legal documents that one can use to prove that the land is his. Some people have been known to issue fake documents, but luckily, Somalis known each other, nobody can fool us into pretending they own land they really don't.

 

Q: Your ministry is now established in Jowhar?

 

A: The ministry is not established in Jowhar. We are going to Mogadishu, since Mogadishu is the capital city of Somalia. We are moving as soon as the problem [of insecurity] there is solved, which is what we are working on now. As soon as Mogadishu is secure we will have, in all regions, representatives of the Ministry of Lands and Settlements who can respond to the demands of the people in the regions.

 

Q: Is there a role for Somali civil society to play in this task ?

 

A: The traditional leaders are part of the civil society, and we want to use these traditional leaders to solve the problem of land disputes; and there are other civil society members who must play their role. Because we cannot say that the Ministry of Lands and Settlements has an armed group who can enforce our decisions. We want to use the civil society and its traditional methods of resolving problems of the people in their area.

 

Q: What is the traditional Somali way of solving disputes?

 

A: Our traditional way of solving problems is according to our religion - we put every party on oath. They have to swear that the land is theirs, and the adverse party will not contest this, because we respect our religion very much, and people are afraid of lying in such conditions. We put the party's hand on the holy Quran, and we ask him to swear. If he is not the owner of the land, he will refrain from taking the oath. Then we deliver the sentence that gives back the land to its rightful owner. Before taking the oath, we always try to convince the person that the land is not his - if he insists, we show him the legal documents of the rightful owner.

 

Q: What role do you envisage the international community playing in solving land disputes in Somalia?

 

A: We need the international community, because we want them to give us experts and personalities who are well qualified in land-mapping to draw technical surveys of Somalia.

 

Q: Do you foresee any change in legislation regarding lands and settlements?

 

A: We foresee a change in the legislation because the previous system was the one left by the colonialists. We have to invent a new method of issuing and registering the land.

 

Q: So there will be some form of land reform?

 

A: Exactly, we will have land reform in the future.

 

Q: Can you give the broad features of this reform?

 

A: For the time being we have not established them yet, but we are in the process of drafting it with engineers, experts and people who are qualified in this area, and who will assist the ministry.

 

Q: Any last comments?

 

A: I would like to extend my thanks and gratitude to the international community and the friendly countries that helped Somalia to restore peace and stability. Without the international community, we couldn't have reached the agreement we signed in Kenya, which established a government of national unity in Somalia.

 

The same gratitude goes to the government of Kenya, for hosting the recently ended Somali national reconciliation conference, and members of IGAD [the Intergovernmental Authority on Development, comprising Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia, Sudan and Uganda] who also played an important role during the reconciliation process.

 

 

[ENDS]

 

Source: IRIN, Aug 02, 2005

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by General Duke:

 

Q: What is the traditional Somali way of solving disputes?

 

A:

Our traditional way of solving problems is according to our religion - we put every party on oath. They have to swear that the land is theirs, and the adverse party will not contest this, because we respect our religion very much, and people are afraid of lying in such conditions. We put the party's hand on the holy Quran, and we ask him to swear. If he is not the owner of the land, he will refrain from taking the oath. Then we deliver the sentence that gives back the land to its rightful owner. Before taking the oath, we always try to convince the person that the land is not his - if he insists, we show him the legal documents of the rightful owner.

He speaks as though occupiers and booty-fed gangs understand the fundamentals of Islam. These are worst people to deal with and are not known to heed these kinds of religious sermons.

 

But it is a shoots of hope and a welcome breeze for this interview to center on land dispute. It has been neglected for a long time and for it we met our demise. This issue, I dare say, is why the Mogadishu warlords resist the restoration of law and order. It is why they fight so fiercely against the concept of governance and rule of law. And it is not just privately owned lands that are held by illegitimate hands, there is also public property that has been vandalized and misused. The ministries, universities and the properties of other governmental institutions, to name few, are either made inoperable or illegally occupied. Not to mention the farm and fertile land and the many towns of southern coast that has been raped and its communities expelled.

 

Ironically this problem (rather its magnitude) does not register with the opponents of the old man and his government. They tend to minimize its significance and swear to the All-Knower that it is not that widespread! It does not deserve to be the priority of the reconciliation process, they say, and there are other pressing issues. There are even those who justify this plague and explain away by narrating similar practices in the past. The crimes of the corrupt and crooked regime of Barre could be remedied by stripping the roofs of poor and innocent Xalimos, or so the thinking of those impeded mind goes! A failing argument that can’t even persuade a first grader.

 

Unless this issue is fully confronted, the future of Southern Somalia will forever remain gloomy and dark.

[Rahima]

^The problem is that to curtail crime (in all forms) we need upstanding and more importantly god-fearing citizens to do the curtailing. Our government is in extreme short supply of these people if they have any at all.

 

How can we expect one criminal to punish another for the greater good?

 

This government will if at the very best set a foundation but in no way will they be able to achieve what is desired, criminals are limited in what they can do.

 

Only the good and righteous will progress Somalia in leaps and bounds which is why ideally we should leave behind all these warlords (irrespective of what position they hold) and thugs- unfortunately though the pages of the book of reality read otherwise. We are stuck with them, but I wouldn’t hold my breath for miracles unless by the mercy of Allah He transforms their hearts overnight.

 

No doubt even in an attempt to undo the damages of stolen property, injustice will continue to occur. This is one of the many wraths we have earned for our disobedience to The Creator.

 

PS. I write in general terms, i do not know who this man.

[Xoogsade]

Originally posted by Rahima:

How can we expect one criminal to punish another for the greater good?

Rahima, the answer is simple, the people you are reasoning with know only one criminal, the one who hails from the tribe they don't belong to. In their simplistic mind, they forgot other somalis are as biased as they are if not worse and won't let another criminal from another tribe pretend holier than thou and give himself a power they don't recognize for him.

 

In any case, they will have to contend with the majority who own their own homes and live as decent muslims and who want their blood, nasabad and kinsmen respected and not threatened by Another criminal. One single person who lives in Xamar is far more important than the so called government and that is how it will remain.

[Rahima]

Rahima, the answer is simple, the people you are reasoning with know only one criminal, the one who hails from the tribe they don't belong to. In their simplistic mind, they forgot other somalis are as biased as they are if not worse and won't let another criminal from another tribe pretend holier than thou and give himself a power they don't recognize for him.

Which is why as i've said we need god-fearing individuals who will judge by the laws of Islam rather than qabiil loyalty.

 

In any case, they will have to contend with the majority who own their own homes and live as decent muslims and who want their blood, nasabad and kinsmen respected and not threatened by Another criminal. One single person who lives in Xamar is far more important than the so called government and that is how it will remain.

Xoog, to think that injustice will not occur to undo past injustices' is to delude ourselves. Believe you me, many innocent people will suffer as a result of this, but that is our punishment and we must live with it.

 

Likewise it will be the governments responsibility to shelter and if need be fund the relocation of all the people who will become displaced. Even without this issue of burgled property, Xamar cannot hold all the people living there currently-the government needs to tackle this along with the ‘refugee’ crisis.

 

What i found somewhat confusing though was

 

After the civil war [broke out], no one could issue permits or authorisation for owning a plot of land. So we will use the old records because these are the only legal documents that one can use to prove that the land is his.

So what about all the new developments all over the country? From Boosaaso to Mogadishu to Kismaayo and beyond? More importantly what about the contracts of people who have sold their land to others, do they (contracts) all not hold water?

[Xoogsade]

Rahima, if people can prevent an impending injustice to materialize, they shouldn't give up trying sis. It is in their interest to avoid anymore damaging internal conflicts at the behest of a corrupt organization. The past injustices are recorded in a book that can not be tampered with, nor can such record be denied, and whoever has or had a hand in it, will be punished accordingly, such a book is with God and people who have claims should wait the day when everyone is accountable. Before that day comes, the best way for them to get what they want is to support the right way, the islamic way of peace and reconciliation and not corrupted means of redress. I mean, some of them pray at the mosque five times and have read religious books, yet they are very supportive of A/Y invading if he could(which he can't) Mogadishu where it is guaranteed people will die. If they have such disregard for their faith, surely, they have no claim to deceny and lack respect in the eyes of many and should stop wasting their time justifying what can not be justified. End of story.

[Sky]

Mowlid, a Somali Bantu himself knows very well how criminal the occupiers are in the first place. These land disputes need to be given first priority by the government and that was the intention by president Yusuf even before he was elected and that was a promise by the number two candidate after Yusuf; Caddow.

 

We all know who owns what, the pre-1991 documents will be used to assess who owns what exactly. Than the properties will be transferred to its rightful owners first through dialogue and ultimately by force. Its important to give the occupiers the chance to buy the property from its rightful owners, if they cannot, than they'll lose the property since it wasn't theirs in the first place.

 

If the rightful owners happen to have lost their documents over their property, they'll have to file in a complaint and search for witnesses whom can vouch for them in front of court. If there ultimately are no legal documents and witnesses and with the knowledge that the present occupier doesn't also, the property will be transferred to the government only to sell it through an auction to the highest bidder.

 

Of course if the present occupiers have the pre-1991 documents of the property by buying it from the original owners, than they are the rightful owners of the property.

 

I believe that there will never be reconciliation if the property disputes in Southern Somalia are not adressed accordingly. Its unwise and unfair to neglect this whole issue, because it could jeopardise the reconciliation process. If not adressed now, it wil haunt us for the rest of the nation's existance. Alxamdulilah the majority agrees.

[General Duke]

Some here are trying to justify the looting of private property, and the whole sale occupation of towns and villages, an example being Marka and Barava.

 

The issue is not people who sold their properies or some who have been spared because they happen to have "God fearing" people who look after those properties. The issue is for those who occupy land and property and who gained it through the "gun".

 

It is hightime that we stop hiding behind words, there will be no lasting peace without justice.

[Xoogsade]

Duke, who in here are you talking about that justifies the looting of properties?

 

Can you quote the person? I don't expect a hypocrite tribalist bigot to tell anything having resemblance to a truth, however, this is your chance to correct your malise and either quote who justified property loot in here or you are obviously, without a doubt, a man without faith whose God is A/Y and his tribe.

 

It has been the norm in here nowadays to lie about individuals and put words into their mouths when the points they make can't be countered in a civil manner.

[General Duke]

^^^ Your misplaced anger seesm to answer the questions put. Also my old friend dont commit a sin by making silly utterences.

 

What happened in the civil war is terrible and without justice there will be no peace thats why even the victimisers does not get anything out of keeping looted properties, their prayers and their worldy efforts will amound to nothing.

 

Again you need to clam yourself, and you calling anyone tribilist is like the "pot calling the kettle black"

[Xoogsade]

Duke, Can you quote the person you said justified property loot? Don't circumvent the issue and either bring a quote out of what I wrote up there that justifies property loot, or you accept your mistake.

 

It is not only you but others in here as well who make such accusations often when they are told to lay off the bias.

 

As for me being a tribalist, I am one when I am dealing with other tribalists, and even then, I don't go beyond the necessary comments which have basis and are firmly seated in logic and common sense. Sometimes you have to speak to people in a language they understand.

 

If it is justice you seek, you support just causes headed by justful men, if it is aggression you seek, you support aggression and aggressive individuals, nothing in between saxib.

 

So, I ask you once more, can you quote me on property loot justification?

 

Runta waa idin dhibtaa and to be told to stop being tribalists to find others accepting your cause. Qof walbo qabiiluu ka dhashey, so you don't mess around being biased towards others by supporting what is harmful to them. And supporting A/Y when he is wrong, is quite frankly, total declaration of war on others. He declared a war on people and you support him quoting who is in cahoots with him and who is not.

 

Anyway, yaan la isku sirmin, first know about yourself and understand who you are and what bothers you, what makes you smile as a tribalist, then take the results and apply them to the other person opposite you, you will see that you will go nowhere without compromise. Don't create fictitious issues but stick to the facts. When you are told some policy doesn't work for obvious reasons, don't go on lying about people but re-examine your position. If you insist on your ways, others will do too and there is nothing you can achieve in a stalemate. Support the right policies or you are lost forever, qofaad wax ka cuneysid malahan.

[General Duke]

Truth hurts the one who hides behind a cloak of lies... this post is about an interview with the minister of land and resettlement and your comments are as follows…

 

“I mean, some of them pray at the mosque five times and have read religious books, yet they are very supportive of

A/Y invading

if he could(which he can't) Mogadishu where it is guaranteed people will dieâ€

Why invade Mogadishu? Is it a foreign land or is it not the capital of Somalia.

Once again you deploy the siege mentality and sowing the seeds of division..

 

“In any case, they will have to contend with the majority who own their own homes and live as decent muslims and who want their blood, nasabad and kinsmen respected and not threatened by Another criminalâ€

Simple while the majority own their own homes they will defend their minority kinsmen, blood and dignity even though these might not own their won homes. Very clever indeed the government are criminal tribilist who want to invade the good Muslims……. Stop the nonsence Somali's are one tribe and the people of Mogadishu dont need to be sold these warlord lies..

 

To you anyone who wants his property back must be trying to invade the good people of Mogadishu. You the “Somali†non tribalism goes on further by lumping people together….

 

“

the answer is simple, the people you are reasoning with know only one criminal, the one who hails from the tribe they don't belong to.â€

Brother you don’t even have to go far, this post alone highlights your duplicitous personality and your lack reasoning..

 

“

the best way for them to get what they want is to support the right way,

the islamic way

of peace and reconciliationâ€

Very nicely put wonderful indeed..

 

Then a couple of post later you address me as………………

 

“without a doubt, a man without faith whose

God is A/Y and his tribe.

â€

Disturbing and un-islamic to label address a Muslim so.. Yet its the symptoms of "clanists" that they get so angry they see their Somali' kinsmen as "Invaders" label them as "others" and justify the very things that are non islamic..

 

Let me finish with this simple truth, Mogadishu belongs to all and you Xoogsade do not have more right than anyone else least of all the Duke…

[Xoogsade]

Duke you wrote: "Why invade Mogadishu? Is it a foreign land or is it not the capital of Somalia."

 

 

You should ask that question the man you so blindly and religiously support as invading the town is his declared policy.

 

 

"Once again you deploy the siege mentality and sowing the seeds of division.."

 

 

Weren't you the one hell-bent on telling us how some warlords support A/Y and their support is crucial to his success? That they will fight the good fight on his behalf and there will be no substantial opposition when a war takes place? Implying people are devided and their devision is god-sent to A/Y?

 

 

 

"Simple while the majority own their own homes they will defend their minority kinsmen, blood and dignity even though these might not own their won homes."

 

By accepting A/Y's presidency, the majority agreed to support the government and the process including correcting any mistakes done in the past which is quite contrary to your depiction of them.. the majority took the initial position of loyal subjects. The change of position came in when A/Y started his edicts about the need for Ethiopian troops, after he shunned the people and the city who had been waiting for him, when he declared a war on them and the only way he said he can come is to come to it riding on the backs of troops. He drew the lines.

 

 

"Very clever indeed the government are criminal tribilist who want to invade the good Muslims……."

 

Of course the head is criminal and anyone who supports him in his aggression is just another criminal.

 

 

 

"Stop the nonsence Somali's are one tribe and the people of Mogadishu dont need to be sold these warlord lies.."

 

 

Then the president has to show he is not another warlord so that people can side with him instead. Otherwise, is there a difference between warlords?

 

 

"To you anyone who wants his property back must be trying to invade the good people of Mogadishu."

 

 

There is quite difference between wanting your property back and supporting aggression and bloodletting on others.

 

 

 

"Brother you don’t even have to go far, this post alone highlights your duplicitous personality and your lack reasoning.."

 

 

Don't you guys, as A/Y supporters, present A/Y as infallible man whose utterances and policies are unqeustionable, stood by him in every ignorant comment he made, every aggressive stance he took? All you do is demonize anyone who questions him from the speaker of the parliament to the forumers in here. Can the blind see really?

 

"Disturbing and un-islamic to label address a Muslim so.. Yet its the symptoms of "clanists" that they get so angry they see their Somali' kinsmen as "Invaders" label them as "others" and justify the very things that are non islamic.."

 

 

What drove you to accuse me of justifying other people's property to be looted even though you have no single quote of it? Whoever justifies unislamic deeds and is supportive of unislamic individuals are obvious if they can see themselves as such.

 

 

"Let me finish with this simple truth, Mogadishu belongs to all and you Xoogsade do not have more right than anyone else least of all the Duke…"

 

Have I ever said I have more right to Mogadishu? Of course, it goes without saying that I don't have any hostile intensions towards the town and its people. Can you say the same about yourself? If you say yes, your contributions belie your claim because you wouldn't be supportive of A/Y's hostile policies. You wouldn't be posting the phantom somali military build-up that never materialized, you wouldn't be doing this or that saxib.

 

 

Bottomline, respect, brotherhood, common goals, neutral policies are what will get you what you seek. That is what A/Y needs to understand instead of talking about Wars.

 

 

Sky

 

Too late with the revelations about me saxib as a house robber Others beat you to it. I just wonder why you didn't quote them and had to go through the trouble of sounding just another insensed loyal blind supporter of A/Y?

 

I need to go saaxiibbayaal, waa innoo mar kale. PS: Don't be telling yourselves Xoogsade is gone and you can write whatever you want, I will be back and come down on you like maxaa kaa galey.

[General Duke]

Xoogsade, your imperfect analysis once again rears its head.

 

Mogadishu is the one and future capital, your bellicose statements can in no way hide the fact that the place is much troubled from 1991 on wards it has deteriorated into a third rate ghetto with no police, security a closed sea and air port and much scars running through its districts. Yet you mistake the program of restring it as an “invasionâ€.

 

The government is working on a plan to give the city back to its people. nd diminish the power of the warlords and scrap merchants.. You on the other hand are working on maintaining the status quo at worse an appeaser at best an apologist to the current status.

 

In a sense you remind me of Shariff Xasan, much talk and no plan of action.

 

Your lack of understanding of the situation is clearly shown when you suggest there is a difference between Mogadishu and Jowhar. How so?

 

The President is in Jowhar a town with a simmilar clan demographic make up to Mogadishu. Wouldn’t his “aggression†and policy of clan invasion begin with Jowhar? You need to back up facts with your statements.

 

“Don't you guys, as A/Y supporters, present A/Y as infallible man whose utterances and polIcies are unquestionable

Amusing but again untrue, A/Y is no super man nor is he always right nor do I or others agree with all his policies. Its also important to note that I did not elect him nor did my clans 61 MP’s elected him, it was a cross clan support that he gained, in which he managed to beat, Abdiqasin, Cadow and others as you witnessed. The PM , most of the ministers and even the new capital are not strong hold of his or my clan.

 

 

“Have I ever said I have more right to Mogadishu?â€

I don’t even need to answer tha, you seem to pose questions which you answer in the same sentence, brilliant.

…………………………………………………………..

 

“Of course, it goes without saying that I don't have any hostile intensions towards the town and its people. Can you say the same about yourself?â€

Its funny the way you slyly suggest I have some evil intentions on Mogadishu while you have only its best interest at heart, yet you belive it belong to us all. Marvelous delusions brother.

 

Mr Soothsayer, the program of pacification, normalisation will continue, if you hide behind religion, clan or even fictitious history.

 

No one is planning to invade the capital least of all the President, yet no one should delude themselves that there will be peace without Justice. Mogadishu will thrive once again once issues like security, law and order and property rights are addressed.

[xiinfaniin]

Rahima,

 

So Should we post-pond the fate of stolen properties till such god-fearing people rise to places of power and authority? Should we strip this government the right to treat this plague because it’s led by questionable men?

 

Or perhaps we should take a closer look at the gist of Gods wisdom and realize that the reason the world changing on us is not that we have a bad government led by bad men rather it is we are living in a void of rule of law (any law, I dare say).

 

Criminal or not if the old man and his men in power attempt and succeed to restore some normalcy in the south, I, for one, think it as a right step. The irony though is the fact that this forlorn old man is talking about security and governance yet the city that supposed to gain most out of it seems to be resisting to his stabilizing plans.

 

Xoogsade, Illaahay ha ku caafiyo Saaxiib. You have a habit to confuse issues.