I'm not Somali, I'm a Somalilandeeeeer

[Xoogsade]

Some people are gifted and very eloquent. JB fits perfectly in those. JB, You said what I wanted to say in a short post.

 

I agree some people tend to get emotional about this. Personally, I am interested in this not because I want to deny anyone their own right of living as they please, or want to rule over them, or support anyone who wants to rule over them by force, but I desire to preserve what we came to grew up with as a country, That Seven Looking country that is home to all Somalis wherever they are born in the world. And it is about the future I am talking about and not at this moment.

 

First time I heard over the radio this separation announcement, I was so shocked that I couldn't talk axcept say: These Guys are Crazy LOOOOL. I dismissed their announcement as one that came from embittered people who won what they have been longing for for sometime. I felt betrayed as a somali person by their Move to be Honest. It was like, How can they do this to us? All that emotion from a Kid wallahi who didn't even graduate from High school. But as years went by, and all I saw was only chaos and more chaos, with those Northern people bringing Order and civility to their part of the Country, I felt better but still betrayed. Now, I am all cool with any outcome although I wish things to remain the way it is as a country and people. And I believe that Somali government all inclusive can be negotiated in the future if the Southern people get their part fixed. If the trust of the Northern people can not be won over again through negotiation, personally, I am not involved in any dispute with them or will pick arms against them, or route for anyone who takes up arms against them.

 

I liked the Nolander name. Perfect name. I never thought of that before.

[OG_Girl]

Sorry Double post.

[OG_Girl]

Originally posted by J B:

you guyz have even USED the Moslim cause as a reason to keep somaliland in the fold.

Exactly that what I said. Stop running to religion to gain politics arguement!!..

 

Stop being selective, You guys using same old trick people used to use 1400 years ago. Do you think people don't know

 

Salam

[AYOUB]

^^ Silly me for thinking he meant people like you.

 

Xoogsade

I felt betrayed as a somali person by their Move to be Honest. It was like, How can they do this to us? All that emotion from a Kid wallahi who didn't even graduate from High school.

Xoogsade your 'emotions' are understandable, but another kid from the other side might have been thinking the same thing: "How can they do this to us?". Something went seriously wrong the question is what was it, and can we let it not happened again?

[Rahima]

Salafi_online.

 

1.There is no country on this Earth which rules by the Shariica (the shariica is a whole system).

 

Allow me to present you with daleel from the words of the Most High:

 

Allah says in Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah 278, “"O you who believe, fear Allah and leave what comes from Riba (Usury) if you are believers. If you do not do so, then wait for a war from Allah and His Messengerâ€.

 

Now, tell me which country does not have riba-based banks as part of its economy?

 

I believe that you and I both agree that you cannot take parts of the shariica whilst leaving others; therefore can you call any country which exercises riba as Islamic? I think not brother, and therefore it is for this reason that Somaliland, like Somalia, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt etc cannot be called Islamic states. It is essential to document that there are several differences concerning an Islamic state and Islam being a state religion (that the majority of the populace are Muslims; hence it is Daar-ul-islaam). In an Islamic state all rulings must stringently kowtow to Islamic Shari`ah (the haduud example you gave for theft is to kowtow with the shariica) but if a state proclaims 'Islam as its religion', it means that Islam is favoured to all other religions and it receives a greater privilege than all other religions in the country.

 

My point here was not a personalized target against Somaliland, rather to establish the point that you cannot say that Somaliland is an Islamic state (which by default makes it unislamic anyway) for there is no Islamic state. This is a matter agreed upon by the scholars (that there is no Islamic state at this point in Islamic history).

 

2.Islamic system of government.

 

An Islamic government brother, adopts the shariica as its legal system and the Khalif as the leader of the state. An Islamic government is one that rejects, abhors and fights any elements which oppose the shariica, such as riba.

 

Another point for us to note is that with in an Islamic government, the concept of opposition parties is also rejected; rather Islam teaches the productive concept of what is called Shuura. Opposition parties are challengers to the leader, Shuura on the other hand is a consultative council. With the Islamic form of government, an attempt to replace the leader is made only when the leader opposes the injunctions set by Allah (that there is evidence of clear kufr, as is decided by the scholars) and so long as the principle of maslaxa (public interest) is kept in tact, opposition parties however serve the purposes of their own thinking rather than that which is set by Allah. Once again, because Somaliland establishes the system of having opposition parties it cannot be considered an Islamic state (i.e. that its legal system is based completely on the unadulterated Shariica). If it is believed that by overthrowing a leader, the harm will outweigh any good that can possibly come of it, then the Islamic ruling states that the Muslims in a bid to maintain the unity and peace put up with their leader, even if he may be a tyrant. This concept is evident in the story of Xajaaj ibn Yusuf which I’m sure most have heard. This man massacred the saxaba left and right to the point that blood was often flowing in the houses of Allah. He slaughtered Abdullah ibn Zubair (RA), yet in light of all the injustices that were been committed by this leader, the remaining saxaba and taabiciin did not attempt to overthrow Xajaaj, in fact they still prayed behind him in salat (the saxabi Cabdullah ibn Cumar in an example which comes to mind). There is an important lesson in this. Read up the history surrounding this story and you will learn to what extent the saxaba valued unity. If we claim to be trying to follow the saxaba as best as possible, then it is only fitting that we overlook the propaganda fed to us and value the unity as much as they did.

 

3.The importance of Unity.

 

Allah says in the Qur’an “"And hold fast, All together, by the rope Which Allah, and be not divided among yourselves;" [3:103]

 

With this verse we understand that Muslims are only to be united upon the book of Allah-i.e. the rope of Allah (and hence Sunnah of His blessed prophet s.c.w).

 

Therefore in the Somali case, since our people are not holding on to the rope of Allah (collectively), then do we go on to disregard the entire ayah? No of course not, rather we work towards the establishment of the first part of the ayah so as to heed the warning in the second part.

 

Now looking at the Somali situation, I ask you, where does the disunity of a people fit into this. Somalis are Muslims, and therefore since this is the case, the separation of one group against another cannot be justified for Muslims can only disunite completely upon the grounds of clear kufr.

 

This is evident in a hadith narrated by Anas ibn Malik,

 

Rasuallah said (paraphrasing) that there would come a time when the leaders of the Muslims would delay the salat and he (Rasuallulah) instructed the saxaba to not delay the salat and pray on time in their homes, but to also go to the masjid to pray jamaaca with the Muslims behind the imam, and that this salat would be counted as a Sunnah prayer.

 

From this hadith we once again understand the extent to which unity should be maintained. Here Rasuallah is instructing the companions to maintain the unity even though the leaders are not respecting the rulings of salat, one of the cornerstone foundations of Islam, because to delay the prayer does not take one of the fold of Islam, it is a sin though. Therefore akhi, how can you justify the separation of Somaliland when they are separating along the rhetoric of “the south cannot achieve peaceâ€.

 

If you doubt this principle (that disunity is only allowed in the case of clear kufr), go and ask the people of knowledge. Ask them on what grounds are people allowed to disunite and is the breakup of an existing Muslim country justified because one part has stability whilst the other (even though they are Muslims) is unstable (because of warlords). In fact, why don’t you go ask Dr Saleh Saleh about this issue.

 

BTW, do you even know why and when Somaliland declared their bid for independence? I believe in knowing the answer to this, you will realizes that even the argument of the south not achieving peace does not hold up, for they declared their independence way before that.

 

4.

As for Somaliland not ruling by the shariyah, well surely no one in this board has studied the Shariyah in its true form, so I wouldn’t be so quick to speak about that which we have no knowledge of! Lest you should say about Allah that which you know not!

There could be a situation that we lay muslims are not aware of! So to say they do not rule by the shariyah its a blank statement, because the person who is utter such statements must have complete knowledge of the shariyahs with all its conditions and rulings, this is why i said Rahima and others should not be so quick to say they dont rule by the shariyah unless they a have complete understand of the shariyah !

Brother, for one to understand that Somaliland does not rule by Shariica, one does not need to have complete understanding of the Shariica. Aside from the fact that scholars state this point, here I’ve given you two examples. Let me refresh your mind with one, the Shariica rejects the concept of opposition parties, Somaliland has opposition parties, if indeed it was a true Islamic state (i.e. adopts the shariica as it should be adopted, not just parts of it), the Shuura system which they have should suffice. Also, democracy is against the tenets of Islam, Somaliland adopts democracy. In fact if we go by the point made by one of the nomads here, the Somaliland constitution is contradictory in nature it seems. As said the Somaliland constititon states that any issue in contradiction to Islam will be rejected yet they accept democracy. I’m wondering how does that work?

 

 

In conclusion, for this discussion brother, nowhere have I given you my opinion but rather have stated daleels from the Qur’an and hadith based on the understanding of the first three generations. It may be that you do not understand certain aspects about this, but do not assume that everyone is in the same. I’m not claiming I know all there is to know (for Allah knows I don’t), but I’ve given you these points and instead of arguing that we are not scholars why don’t you try and verify (or disprove) them with daleel? Also, it seems that often you look for more than that-i.e. daleel from Q &S along with the words of particular scholars(and please excuse me if I’m wrong); you do not need that this scholar said this and that scholar said that when there are clear proofs in the Qur’an and Sunnah. I don’t need a scholar to tell me that Riba is xaraam for Allah has already clearly highlighted that. Remember the words of Abdullah ibn Abbas, when he said in that hadith, you people (speaking to other saxaba) are saying that Cumar and Cuthman said.. and I say to you Rasuallah said.

 

Allah and His prophet have established this point simply, on the authority of Al-Numan bin Basheer, who said:

 

I heard the messenger of Allah say:

 

"That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know…â€

 

But like I said, if you doubt my main point here (as I hope I’ve proven with daleel), that disunity is never justified unless it can be established that on one party there is a case of clear kufr, then ask the scholars before you jump to the conclusions you are accusing others of.

 

 

Jubair ibn Mut'im related that Rasulullah said: "Whoever calls others to sectarianism is not one of us. Whoever fights out of sectarianism is not one of us. Whoever dies for the cause of sectarianism is not one of us." (Abû Dâûd)

 

 

Exactly that what I said. Stop running to religion to gain politics arguement!!..

Islam does not separate religion and politics. Shouldn’t you know that sister as a student of Islamic law?

 

What you are claiming here is that we should argue politics separately and keep Islam out of it. This is the arguments which Socialism is based upon. Socialism is “The belief that religion and ecclesiastical affairs should not enter into the function of the state."

 

Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (`ibadah) and legislation (Shari`ah), the acquiescence of secularism denotes the rejection of Shari`ah, a denunciation of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions.

 

Secularism is incompatible with Islam, for as as Merve Kavacki- an elected Turkish parliamentarian who was removed from office for the reason that she chose to wear a hijab (Islamic head covering) - stated “"Isn't the secularisation of Islam an oxymoron? For the religion cannot be separated from itself".

 

However, for me it was Hassan Al-Banna founder of the Muslim Brotherhood that summed it up superbly when he said:

 

“Brethren, you are not a benevolent organization, nor a political party, nor a local association with strictly limited aims. Rather you are a new spirit making its way into the heart of this nation and revivifying it through the Quran; …if some should ask you: To what end is you appeal made? Say: We are calling you to Islam, which was brought by Muhammad, government is part of it, and freedom is one of its religious duties. If someone should say to you: This is politics! Say: This is Islam and we do not recognize such divisions…â€

 

Much apologies folks for the overly long post .

[OG_Girl]

Islam does not separate religion and politics. Shouldn’t you know that sister as a student of Islamic law?

 

What you are claiming here is that we should argue politics separately and keep Islam out of it. This is the arguments which Socialism is based upon. Socialism is “The belief that religion and ecclesiastical affairs should not enter into the function of the state."

 

Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (`ibadah) and legislation (Shari`ah), the acquiescence of secularism denotes the rejection of Shari`ah, a denunciation of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions.

Rahima,sister,I am sorry to disagree here. We can sing from now to day of judgement that Islam is why of life and my self I agree but as we know Quraan is a book can't come out as a Khaliifah and rule us, Is us who have to understand and apply into our dayly life, saying this means we are humanbeen your way of Islam different than mine.

 

I think when u live as amuslim and in an islamically developed policies and in an islamically elected parliament, then you can start argue that is un-islamic Somaliland to seperate but reality there is NO islamiclly state in Somalia to break rule of Allah from beggining!

 

Well if somalia is an islamic State with islamic political governance then you can make your point, but reality there is no Islamiclly State therefore Somaliland not breaking any Share'a Law here unless you just using it to win an arguement!.however if it isnt used or has never been used then one can't say the sharia has been broken or is unislamic!.Every thing around us is unislamic.

 

Finally,Separation has nothing to do with sharia Somalis have never used the sharia and therefore what you saying never being true ....unless ofcouse you wish to use it now.

 

We all dream to see our Ummah unite and my self against dividing Somalia and Somalis, Till we apply Islam into our life we can't argue this with any one here.

 

That is why I said we need to seperate here till we all apply it.Because I dont see it happening in this day and age unless its just a miracle

we dont have the brains nor the princeples to outgrow the hate for each other.

 

Salam

[Rahima]

Sister OG_girl,

 

Likewise with all due respect, i believe you missed my point .

 

I HAVE said that the whole of Somalia is not ruling by the shariica (which is in my last post), but that is beside the point.

 

The ruling by the shariica issue was a point i was discussing with our brother salafi who said that he was not sure as to whether or not Somaliland was ruling by the shariica.

 

The other point is, like i have already said, even if we are not ruling by the shariica it is still the responsibility of the Muslims to maintain the unity unless their is clear kufr of the people in general. I have given proofs to this.

 

That is why I said we need to seperate here till we all apply it.

This is your opinion, Islam says otherwise.

I myself (my opinion) do not care if Somaliland seperates, each to their own i say, but still i won't let my opinion cloud that which i know to be correct. Element of hypocracy in me, i know.

 

Islam establishes that the Islamic state is the form chosen by Allah for us to adopt, considering that the Khalifate was destroyed, this was the first mistake and anything left of that (i.e. further break up) is just another mistake. We need to start moving to the right if we are to conform with Allahs injunctions.

[OG_Girl]

Well, I am just being Devil's Advocate here . But your point is weak, your self(Somalia) never been Islamic State to ask other to be part of that islamic State. Other point how do you know they will start Islamic State so we all can join them to start umaah ... does this make sense?

 

Other point tell me which Islam state are not devided so we will join them to Start Khalifah?

 

Hmm sister I did not miss any thing here but you just confused as my self confused.

 

I am sorry My opinion to keep realitic here and let the dreams.

 

When Saddam came Kuwait , they got Fatwa from Azhar saying we can use not only "kafer" America and west , we even can use Shaitan to destroy Saddam's regime and throw them outta kuwait!!... When women in Kuwait wanted their Political rights from non Islamic Goverment they got another Fatwa saying in Islam women can't be in parliment!!..

 

My point my understand could be defferent than yours and still we both claim is Islamicly and copy and paste what supports my arguement.

 

The problem even in Islam we can't unite in one understanding of Islam.... We need miracle here my friend a miracle!.

 

Salam

 

Salam

[Suldaanka]

Hello Rahima

Speaking of shariica and Islamic economy, the reason why it is very hard to have such is that in today's modern paper money is totally haram, as some scholars have found. The reason is that, in the old Islamic money, the value of the money was fixed. Say, for example, during the Caliphate, you worked and earned enough money that could buy you 6 camels, that same money if you leave it under your pilow for the next ten years, will still buy you the same 6 camels. But in modern "paper money", say you worked enough money that could buy you 6 camels, in 10 years time, that same money will buy maybe 1 or 2 camels. What happened to the other 4 camels?? That is where it becomes haram.

 

In today's money, the real value of the money is not in the money at all, the real value of your money is held somewhere in New York or London. But in the Islamic money, the real value of the money in the in the money, so that money will always have the same value no matter how many years you kept it in your pocket.

[Rahima]

But your point is weak, your self (Somalia) never been Islamic State to ask other to be part of that islamic State.

I never said that (which is why I said you did not read my response to brother salafi ). Where did I say that Somalia is an Islamic state?

 

Just to refresh your memory , allow me to quote myself:

 

I think not brother, and therefore it is for this reason that Somaliland, like

Somalia

, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt etc cannot be called Islamic states

Even if we don’t have an Islamic state, we are still to remain united until one group of people becomes outright gaalo. Simple enough yet sister? This is my whole point put into one sentence.

 

Maybe it’s my English, I don’t know, but I can’t see how I can possibly make it any clearer .

[OG_Girl]

Not your English sister, Is my Arabic .

 

I understand your point very well, But why we should be united? cause of what? and why I should unite with you NOT you don't unite with me?

 

My whole arguement is we all selfish and use Islam when it with our side and being selective.

 

I want somalia be one and strong with Islam or not.

 

Seperating is not good here my practicaly arguements ;

 

economically it may just be adisaster as they do not have any resources other than handouts from the west and people in diaspora .You see what stains acountry is if they have an agricultural base.....animal husbandry and most of all the labour that mantains aconstant flow of these industries,In Somalia there is no labour force and there are no industries.

the Agricultural base is non existence and the fishing industry has never began .....without considering the above there is no chance of sustainance and most other countries do have something to fall back on however Somalis dont think beyond their noses we see apple starving and dying. And what do we do! We continue hating and arguing about Share'a Or things like we want to cut off and separate!!! .

 

When we want to argue in politics let us talk things in ground and we all can see it THEN we back to Share'a!!

 

I am done!

 

Salam

[Salafi_Online]

go ask Dr Saleh Saleh

Sis Rahima why did u mention him out of all the scholars and talibul Ilm out there, this strikes me as odd, wallah !Do u know something i dont ?!? i really wanna know!

 

As for Unity i will write up a piece inshallah and sis believe me it will be based on the how the companions and the scholars of our time understood Unity! Which no one on the manhaj of the salaf will oppose!

 

and as for your statement that no country rules by the shariyah,Im Shocked you would made such statements. With all due respect, read the following and tell me what you think!

 

http://www.muqbil.co.uk/

 

headinging:

Imaam Muqbil: What I Witnessed in Saudi Arabia

 

The last tape recorded by Shaikh Muqbil, which is his recantation from his previous statements on Saudi Arabia. The Shaikh made this statement after spending many months in the land, witnessing for himself the reality of the land.

 

i also have few other statements by bin Baaz & fawzan speaking about the land of tawheed! A land constantly under attack by those who mingle with the kufar and receive their daily Subsistence from them! May Allah guide them!

 

IM sure for someone who follows the manhaj of the salaf, you know who Shaykh Ibn Hadee' AlWadee'e is and his status in this ummah!

 

 

and concerning Riba, if A ruler practices Riba, yet knowns is haram, and openly declares it to be haram, however Indulges in it cause he is weak,is this not a major sin? for he has not made halal that which is Haram! these are the questions i put forward to you.

 

 

one last point, it's become a trand of your to say, "the scholars said this...the scholars said that" you should really make a point of yours to quote these scholars you speak off! their names and their fatwas! Maybe your referring to Salma & Safar and there likes?!?

 

please Rahima due answer all those questions,

I value your insight!

 

Ayub Shaykh your from Borama? Hmmm!

 

www.salafipublications.com

[Salafi_Online]

Rahima you raised two points Unity & Shariyah!

 

There is no country on this Earth which rules by the Shariica (the shariica is a whole system).

In addition to Shaykh Muqbil’s fatwas here is Shaykh fawzan

 

Shaykh Fawzan excerpt from a fatwa of the noble shaykh, taken from http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0030531.htm

 

“Verily, when the shocking event occurred, the event of the bombings in the city of Riyaadh undertaken by the violent and barbarious (savage) hands, in the capital of the land of tawheed, they turned upon the religion, and upon humanity (by way of this act of theirs), and the Kuffaar have taken them as riding animal in order to attack Islaam and the Muslims.â€

 

The shaykh says, “The land of tawheed†I don’t expect anyone on SOL to understand these words, since most of the users don’t know the status of this eminent scholar, but for someone who follows the scholars you shouldn’t have problem!

 

 

like I said, if you doubt my main point here (as I hope I’ve proven with daleel), that disunity is never justified unless it can be established that on one party there is a case of clear kufr, then ask the scholars before you jump to the conclusions you are accusing others of.

First this statement is inaccurate for there is no unity with the innovators, I would not have mention this, but you used the wordâ€Never†thus I think its important I clarify that. There is no Unity with the innovators. Plus not every innovation leads to disbelieve,so to limit disunity with the kufar is absolutely not how the salaf understood this deen! this also includes the people of desire,(Ahlul Hawa) We hold fast on the rope of Allah upon the proper Aqeeda and manhaj; that of the Salaf!

 

Prove:

Al-Hasan al-Basree (d. 110H) said: "Do not sit with the people of innovation and desires, nor argue with them, nor listen to them." Reported by ad-Daarimee in his Sunan (1/121)

 

Imaam Maalik (d. 179H) said: "How evil are the people of innovation, we do no give them salaam." Reported by al-Baghawee in Sharh us-Sunnah (1/234).

 

Al-Fudayl bin 'Iyaad (d. 187H) said: "Whoever sits with a person of innovation, then beware of him and whoever sits with a person of innovation has not been given wisdom. I love that there was fort of iron between me and a person of innovation. That I eat with a Jew and a Christian is more beloved to me than that I eat with a person of innovation." Reported by al-Laalikaa'ee (no.1149)

 

As for Somaliland seeking separation or any other islamic land…

we should work towards unity, as muslims, but this unity is only upon the proper "aqeeda, so those who are calling for unity must call to the aqeeda of the salaf, and they unite upon this single aqeeda; anything less then that is faleshood! we do not unite upon faleshood! So if Somaliland is not uniting with somali upon the correct aqeeda, who cares if they separate, its not like somalia as anything to offer Somaliland! i only support unity under these conditions! there is a nice book by Shaykh Hasan Al Halibi i believe the jordanian shaykh, student of Albani, called,"Muslim Unity" i suggest you read it!

 

as for dr.Saleh Saleh i have regular contact with him, inshallah i shall speak to him!

 

 

As-San’aanee, in explanation of the hadeeth, "Whoever left obedience [to the Imaam] and separated from the Jamaa’ah and then died, then his is a death of Jaahiliyyah]", said: "His saying, ‘…left obedience…’, meaning obedience to the Khaleefah concerning whom there is agreement. And it is as if the intent here is the Khaleefah of a particular region because the people have never gathered together behind a single Khaleefah in all the lands of Islaam since the time of the 'Abbaasee State. Rather, the people of every region were independent with someone presiding over their affairs. If the hadeeth was taken to mean the overall Khaleefah which the people of Islam had united behind, there would have been no benefit in it." Subulus-Salaam Sharh Bulooghul-Maraam min Adillatil-Ahkaam (3/499)

 

Ash-Shawkaanee said, "As for when Islaam spread and its territories expanded and its regions became distant [from each other], then it is known that in all of these regions loyalty was given to an Imaam or Sultaan… So there is no harm in the multiplicity of Imaams and Sultaans and it is obligatory for those people in whose land his orders and prohibitions become effective to give obedience to him after having giving bay’ah to him . It is likewise for the people of all the other regions."

 

these are my dalil for separation, somalila has nothing to offer; expect chaos

 

Sis its easy to quote the Quran and Sunnah, but we need the proper understanding of the kitab and sunnah, the way of the salaf, you did not quote one scholar to support you understanding of those ayahs and hadiths!

 

 

www.salaf.com

[IL CAPO]

Sharia Goverment in Somalia?

 

Count me out please,i rather remain in my beloved Garissa than go to Somalia but i wonder how long is it going to take for all the Nomads to learn what Sharia really is and will they accept it?

 

i am already fed up with the few Al Ittihads that are running around who always seem to mess up my Marqaan with their limited knowledge about Islam.

 

in my opinion the next president of Somalia should be a Dictator and the meaner and merciless he is the better because let us be honest here, we know nothing about democracy and democracy wasn't meant for people like Somalis or any other African state for that matter that is why we Kenyans adored Mzee Moi and you Somalis are suffering because you just wouldn't shut up and listen and be obedient to Mzee Siad Barre as he was the most successful leader Somalia has ever had, he took Somalia from obscurity to greater heights and it took him more than a decade to get Somalia to the level it was and now that he is gone look where Somalia is at today.

 

VIVA SOCALISM.

[Salafi_Online]

^^^^ you gave me a good laugh, thank