The Illusory SOMALILAND Setting the Record Straight -- a 45-page Document

[RedSea]

Or could it be that no one wants to waste his/her time on this over discussed topic. May be Mr. Me do some back peddling and see what was said by both sides of the aisle on this same subject before you make any assumptions. May be no one wants to view the same old episode over and over again, may be that is why.

 

I think, people are at work and about their business, rather than stare on computer screen 24/7 like some of us here, just may be.

[me]

Mr. Red Sea,

 

I recognize your attempt at being funny and I sincerely applaud it. What episode of history are we revisiting? Are you claiming that the points brought forward by this report are irrelevant? Because the points brought forward in this report are the foundations of the whole Sland myth.

 

And if they are irrelevant then Sland is also irrelevant. So choosing not to discuss those points just like many other compatriots of yours only makes it clear that issue of secession can not be defended intellectually.

[RedSea]

My hometown boy mr. Me,

 

Believe me it has been debated,but since Somaliland is here to stay anyway, then what is the point of the debate. It's waste of time and breath, at least that is what I think.

[me]

Hmmmm is that what it came to. I was wondering when you would give up and start hiding in the last hide out of the challenged mind, since you know that your cause can not be defended, intellectually, morally and legally.

 

I am satisfied that you have at least understood the weaknesses of the pro-sland arguments and actually that there are no arguments for sland.

 

It’s a one clan project and as you has already said Dugsi male qabyaaladu waxay dumiso mooyee. (Tribalism has no shelter except destruction) and anything that is built on clannism will not last.

[Ibtisam]

^^^I hope you read and understand what you wrote and apply it to yourself.

 

Interesting read to say the least. Well written and argued, but poorly researched and far fetched conclusions (by this i mean he does not prove his case with unbaised evidence and sources)check out how other authors do this (John J. Mearsheimer & Stephen M. Walt b THE ISRAEL LOBBY AND U.S. FOREIGN POLICY; London Review of Books Vol. 28, No. 6 (March 23, 2006) for example).It is a man telling his view and opinion and generally going on a rant. I doubt he set the record straighter than anyone else as everyone twist things to suit their message. Clearly he is worried about the possibility of recognition and problems it may cause. So much for unity, he is clearly aiming to isolate them.

 

In any case for anyone who wants to read the history of Somalia/Somaliland; Rather then reading a clearly biased information. Read the Scramble for Africa or the State of Africa. Both really well written, and has evidential backing. Pointless debating is wasteful, in truth both regions add nothing to each other and each has its problems.

 

cheers

[RedSea]

MR.me, let me once again tell you that it's up to those in Hargeisa/Burco/borame,Berbera to decide their destiny. They have chosen to succeed, so will you then cry for them to be brought back to reunite with Somalia. This case applies to Sool and Sanaag by the way.

[me]

My friend any secession is wrong because it is not in the interest of my people to be divided even more and especially along clan lines. You call it 'SUCCES', I choose to disagree.

 

Unity, peace and prosperity for the Somali people are the ideals and they would be truly a success. The secession on the other hand is a temporary solution that will in the long run lead to more misery for all Somali people. I chose to think things through and I came to the conclusion that we are better of staying united.

 

The reasons are:

 

- You can not build on qabiil, just like you can not build on quick sand

 

- We will become smaller states that get bullied by our neighbours (Ethiopia)

 

- Economic development in the mini-states will be minimal since we will get increasing populations, more unemployment, Poverty and jaad addictions. And if you want to stop the jaad or ban it, the bully (Ethiopia) will not allow it since it is one of its main exports.

 

-Minimum agricultural lands in the North, how will the people be fed? Imported food?

-In years of drought how will the people survive? Should we forever be slaves to Western Aid?

 

-The remittances from the Diaspora will not continue for ever, the second generation Somalis abroad will be sending allot less money back home and the third generation won't send anything.

 

Only a miracle can make the Somali mini-states a success. And you can not disagree with me that things will get harder if we live in mini states then if we live in one state.

 

Because every little state will try to collect taxes however they can so that they can afford public services, such as free education, health care, defence, law enforcement etc. etc.

 

So what will they tax? Because without taxes no government will survive.

 

-They will tax all imported good, including goods from other mini-states and this will damage free trade among the Somalis.

 

-The government can not tax its own people because we Somalis hate taxes and are willing to fight over it and most people are too poor to pay any taxes.

 

So if they can not collect taxes how will they afford any schools, hospitals or police?

 

Well we can always go private sector but how many people can afford it, only well of people will be getting any education and healthcare and even private militia.

 

So the majority of the people of the mini-states will forever be locked in poverty.

 

Yes the mini-states are peaceful compared to the death triangle and yes no one is starving now. But are those the only two criteria we are looking at?

 

 

According to Maslows pyramid we are on nr.1 and 2, we are fighting for our biological needs and safety.

 

(Maslow's pyramid)

1. Physiological (Biological needs)

2. Safety

3. Love/Belonging

4. Status (Esteem)

5. Actualization

 

Our aim should not be we have food today or we are having a peaceful region, our aim should be the advancement of the whole Somali nation. We should think creative and come with solutions on how we can make sure our race survives (Yes us Somalis are a race). It is in the interest of us all to work together and to make sure we all survive. The matter at stake is not mini-states only. IT IS SURVIVAL, survival of our culture, survival of our language, survival of our race. And we have a better chance surviving this world by working together and being united with one goal in mind ‘the advancement of the Somali race’ then being divided. This way we will die out one by one. We are on the brink of extinction. Everything that is Somali is under attack.

 

Our language gets new foreign words everyday and pure Somali words are lost

Our nomadic culture is dying out (our dances, our songs, even day to day artefacts that nomadic people use are no longer hand made, they have been replaced by cheap Chinese plastics)

Our land is being divided

Our people are divided and they identify themselves more with a clan then with a Nation.

 

So we should fight on all these fronts and make sure us as Somalis survive and come through these hard times intact.

[Ibtisam]

ME:

 

1) The book you recommended was bit useless on the topic at hand, written in 1950s by a Polish man, who has visited Somalia twice has little to add to what I already knew. Mind you I have not read the book, but few reviews of it. From what I read there are better books than it and reviewers were not impressed. Maybe that’s why you have deleted your post.

 

2) This obsession and repetition is crazy, you need to chill. I do not see who has made you the spokes person for SL people. Every individual has the right to decide their own destiny, if they choose to do it collectively then that is up to them.

 

3) Your ignorance and presences in LALA land is shocking

So we should fight on all these fronts and make sure us as Somalis survive and come through these hard times intact.

Survive, intact :confused: :mad: and how do you think this will happen! By extending the war zone

 

Last but not least.

 

Somalia and indeed the rest of Africa is based on tribal lines, this has been the case long before independence. Lets just suppose that there was a united Somalia; what do you think its political process will be based on? Party line! Certainly not!. The dominate feature will always be tribe/ Clans and sub clan's. This makes you argument and indeed the author’s argument that Somaliland is based on clan/ tribalism etc Irrelevant . It does not surprise me.

 

Like any other country, the elite (or politicians) shall I say, are of course interested in their own self gain. There is no doubt that there are features of this in any nation. However to suggest that few politicians were fully successful in manipulating the residence of Somaliland to 1) keep quiet or support them or 2) not object to what has been decided even if they want to be part of a wider Somalia is insulting to say the least towards the people of that region.

[Oda_Nobunaga]

Please refrain from ridiculous theories about the economic sustainability of an independant Somaliland.

 

We are at rock bottom things cannot get any worse only better, and infact our economy will expand rapidly if this anti-somaliland arab economic sanctions are lifted.

 

there are no economic reasons for a return to unity.

[me]

Ibtisam, as you have said every person the right to speak their mind, I could not agree more. I am speaking my mind too. No one has made me the spokes person for anyone nor am I claiming to be speaking for anyone except me.

 

The book I had recommended is appropriate for this discussion since it will give you more insight on the subject of the division of the Somalis, how the colonials used divide and conquer tactics to subjugate us, how they gave away our lands and how this situation is the by product of these tactics.

 

What is LA LA land according to you? Pointing out the obvious is not LA LA land.

 

I quote: “Somalia and indeed the rest of Africa is based on tribal lines, this has been the case long before independence. Lets just suppose that there was a united Somalia; what do you think its political process will be based on? Party line!â€

 

Somalia has one tribe, the Somalis. So we have clans not tribes. Secondly I am saying that the political process should be based on more then just our clan should have the power, because thoughts like that will only lead you to more destruction. SO YES THE POLITICAL PROCESS SHOULD BE BASED ON PARTY IDEOLOGIES.

 

If you are suggesting that the political process should be based along clan lines, I would like to ask you whether you know how clans function. Do you know that clans divide and keep dividing until there is just one individual left?

 

So how can you suggest that we base a political process and our future on clans?

 

Think rational my friend; don’t build your house on quick sand.

[me]

Oda_Nobunaga

 

The economic issues that I have raised are relevant. It has been 15 years since the dictator was ousted but Hargeysa hospital is still in the same state if not worse, I have seen that Geldorf documentary and it was nothing to be proud of after 15 years it is still in shambles.

 

I know it is easy for you to blame others for the lack of development, but the situation will not get much better even when the life stock ban is lifted. The only sanction that the Arabs have on the enclave is the life stock ban and nothing else. All other economic activities are not banned and there is trade between the enclave and the Arab countries, the problem is this trade is not enough to support a viable state. So yes you should look at the economic reasons for unity.

[RedSea]

Originally posted by me:

My friend any secession is wrong because it is not in the interest of my people to be divided even more and especially along clan lines. You call it 'SUCCES', I choose to disagree.

Hello neighbor,

 

"success" I was actually going for the overused term of seccesion. But anyways, yes the Somalis in Somaliland have been more successful than brothers from elsewhere would you agree?

 

The fact that Somaliland is secceding is something that was came up with by a politician, then the people have embrassed the idea and the majority of the people in Somaliland back up such step.

 

Unity, peace and prosperity for the Somali people are the ideals and they would be truly a success.

I agree, but peace and prosperity is something that can be reached in union or in a lone state. Peace, properity, and success for all is something I hoping all Somali people shall reach one day insha Allah.

 

The secession on the other hand is a temporary solution that will in the long run lead to more misery for all Somali people. I chose to think things through and I came to the conclusion that we are better of staying united.

So you came to the conclusions that Somaliland Somaliland won't be successful in the long run according to your vision from the future eh? I am not going to make any speculations on this, so I will leave to Allah to decide the future, he knows what to do with his servens.

 

The reasons are:

 

- You can not build on qabiil, just like you can not build on quick sand.

That example is something that I don't get, but if the qabiil chose to succeed, then what can you do about it? If that certain qabiil chose to do things in their way, then all you can do is wish them good luck, that is what I would have done?

 

-

We will become smaller states that get bullied by our neighbours (Ethiopia)

Unfortunately, even if Somalia was together today, Ethiopia would still be involved in our affairs just like they are now with current government headed by Abdullahi Yusuf.

 

- Economic development in the mini-states will be minimal since we will get increasing populations, more unemployment, Poverty and jaad addictions.

These points you have just scripted above dont' make anysense with all due respect, Jaad addictions? so I gues unity would eradicate that?

And if you want to stop the jaad or ban it, the bully (Ethiopia) will not allow it since it is one of its main exports.

NO, once again you lost it there, Ethiopia can't force us to buy Jaad, are you kidding me man? if Somalis can afford to stop chewin qat, then Ethiopia won't be able to sell it to us, because there won't any buyers; common sense.]

 

 

-Minimum agricultural lands in the North, how will the people be fed? Imported food?

-In years of drought how will the people survive? Should we forever be slaves to Western Aid?

The north has very large area that has the potential of producing every thing needed. From Western Hargeisa all the way near Borame, from Gabiley to Oodweyne, Cadaadley, all these locations have great agricultural potential that are capable of providing food to Somaliland incase.

 

Even during Somalia's peak days, we still relied on Western aid for the most part,that is just a fact known to everyone.

 

 

(Maslow's pyramid)

1. Physiological (Biological needs)

2. Safety

3. Love/Belonging

4. Status (Esteem)

5. Actualization

According to Who Maslow,listen aint listening anything from crazy Psychatrist, how about according to Allah or his prophet?

 

I am done with this chit chat, so long inadeer.

 

Assalamu Calaykum.

[Oda_Nobunaga]

Originally posted by me:

Oda_Nobunaga

 

The economic issues that I have raised are relevant. It has been 15 years since the dictator was ousted but Hargeysa hospital is still in the same state if not worse, I have seen that Geldorf documentary and it was nothing to be proud of after 15 years it is still in shambles.

 

I know it is easy for you to blame others for the lack of development, but the situation will not get much better even when the life stock ban is lifted. The only sanction that the Arabs have on the enclave is the life stock ban and nothing else. All other economic activities are not banned and there is trade between the enclave and the Arab countries, the problem is this trade is not enough to support a viable state. So yes you should look at the economic reasons for unity.

blaming outsiders is a valid point becuase t is well know that the carta government of Salad lobied the aabs to ban the livestock trade to presure somaliland, which was undergoing an economic boom due to the $200 million is anuall exports..

 

aside from that

what i want to know is what are the benefits of

union with the south?

 

you have not explained them.

and are you saying the rest of somalia is an economic powerhouse able to provide aide to the north lol.

[me]

Mr. Red Sea,

 

I totally disagree with you; Somaliland has not been more successful then other regions in Somalia i.e. Puntland.

 

Yes Ethiopia bullies the authorities in those regions. All initiatives to ban khat are being sabotaged by them and those with business interest in the drug. Somalis are the ADDICTS Ethiopia is the PUSHER. You can try to put your head in the sand and ignore this, just because it makes you feel better.

 

What I do not get is, you say that you will leave everything to Allah and that you are a religious person yet with the same breath you are saying that dividing people is ok even though, these people have no problems with each other except as you said ‘politicians’ trying to break them apart for whatever reason.

 

Unity is the Islamic way, while disunity is the devils way.

 

The reason why you can not build on qabiil is simple and by now you should know it too. Qabiils are not a solid unit.

 

A clan might not like another clan but inside there are troubles too. Clan A has sub clans that are all rivalling for the power and within the sub-clan there are sub-sub-clans that are also rivalling and you can not deny this, enough examples of things going wrong within the clans, let alone an external clan attacking them.

 

So I do not understand a man like you who knows how clans functions still trying to ignore there biggest weakness and not realizing that we can not build a state on a clan.

 

Yes Somalia today is bullied and that is because of the disunity. Somalia before the civil war could not have been bullied, because we were a strong nation. And a united Somalia can once again be a strong nation. The mini-states however will have a bigger trouble defending themselves against a bully like that. The mini-states are also internally disunited, they have more to fear from a bully then a united Somalia would.

 

I quote: “According to Who Maslow,listen aint listening anything from crazy Psychatrist, how about according to Allah or his prophet?â€

 

Qur'anic Evidence

(1) Surah al-Imran (3:103):

"And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of Allah and be not divided."

 

Surah 3, Aayah 105

 

105 - " Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into dissensions after having received clear guidance; for them is a dreadful penalty."

 

 

Our continuous disunity and fights is what is making it easier for others to use us against each other.

So one can not claim to be with God and the Propher scw and yet reject the Islamic teachings on unity.

 

 

Oda_Nobunaga

 

Please stop this simplicity, what is this ‘the south’ that you are talking about?

 

The rest of Somalia has a bigger economy, bigger agricultural; land, rivers that are full of water all year long. And a population that’s 3 times the size then that of the North West. So yes compared to the North West region the rest of Somalia is an economic powerhouse.

[RedSea]

Allahu Akbar,

 

mr. Me, how can I with all due respect can you expect me to respond back while you are not paying attention to anything that I say. Listen to me very carefully, I am not saying people should be divided, but I am saying people are ALREADY divided, with the population in Somaliland against any unity. Therefore, my point is if the population in Somaliland aren't willing to reunite with the South, then it's wrong to hold anything against their will.

 

Please remember to not quote from the Quran without any basic knowledge of it. The Quran is the not thing to push your political agenda. The unity that the Quran is talking about is not the same one as somalis, but it's saying all muslims should be united under the Islamic law. So if you present me Somalia with a Islamic laws prevailing then I don't see why not, but that is not the case is it?

 

So please understand my point for the sake for argument, because if you just like to argue just to waste people's breath, then tell me so I can stop bothering wasting any further energy in this please.