Cutting Costs.

[Nur]

eNuri Serious Fun Series

 

Presents:

 

Cutting Costs

 

The rise of the Islamic courts in Somalia has given a new impetus for discussing the merits of present secular criminal correctional systems in place in ( Materially) develeped nations but morally bankrupt, such as France and the US.

 

This idea was prompted to me when I thought about the US outsourcing of torture for terror suspects to exotic offshore places so that it can stop terrorism while not breaking the US constitution which was written by more tolerant guys than the Neocons, the US constitution was designed to protect individual rights against the state ( if it goes crazy)

 

This focus on individual rights has resulted in the erosion of morality and faith, the breakdown of the family unit, teenage pregnancies, drug addiction which leads to theft, burglary and murder.

 

 

Today, the US with an estimated 2 Million inmates in its prisons, ranging from hard core criminals to blue collar criminals spends an average of 45 thousand dollars per inmate to the tune of 90 Billion Dollars a year ( Enough money to buy Somalia as a real estate investment, which is cheaper than the CIA's budget, who inadvertently helped the establishment fo the islamic courts by giving money to the criminal warlords whose hands is stained with 15 years of crimes agaist humanity ).

 

If you add to the above the endless number of Industries and professionals who handle this menace, the judges, lawyers, intelligence apparatus, legal assitances, police , and the prohibitive cost of administration, the new sum will be so large, the US can buy half of African continent with all of its coconuts and bananas.

 

Oh, how can I forget that prisons have become a crime expertise convention paid by the tax payers in which criminals learn from each the latest methods of doing theor trade, tools and networks, so that they can do it better once released.

 

Morally speaking, incarcerating the males and the females separetely creates a rich soil for social pervertion among inmates, which further reduces their morality and self worth, exposing them to AIDS and other expensive diseases that will further cost the tax payer who was robbed and swindled in the first place more money.

 

With such horrible figures of insecurity, and an army of lawyers, the highest in the world, (every 16 Americans have a lawyer), the nation needs an alternative to this madness.

 

eNuri Suggests:

 

The Islamic Courts of Mogadishu to the job.

 

Give the Islamic courts of Somalia a contract for one year in one US county or jurisdiction to administer Sharia law as a trial ( Select the worse criminal Jurisdiction) to show how effective it can be to cut costs and make the USA a safer place to live and love.

 

A thief, blue collar who swindles billions or a petty thief who snatches a purse from a lady are not punished the same in the Sharia. The blue collar thief's hand is chopped off, to cut cost of incarceration, and as a deterrent for would be thievs, ( Same logic behind US Nuclear Arsenal of 11 thousand warheads) The swindler can be back to work in wall street immediately, in no time with one hand missing as a testament to his payment of community dues and scaring of temptation of grand larceny.

 

The petty thief can be warned the first time, wipped the second time, by his thrid time, his hand is chopped off.

 

Of course, the islamic court will run an adverstisement for a month in all media such as Oprah, to show the gruesome amputation of hand as a stern deterrent so that no one dares to steal public or private wealth.

 

At the end of a calendar year, the results can be reviewed, and if the country becomes too safe to live, Americans can move to Gazza for excitement.

 

 

The Moral of the story: Cutting Hands (of criminals) is literally Cutting Costs!

 

 

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[Uthman1]

Exactly Nur.

 

No law can match up to the laws of Allah since He knows how His creation work. You only mentioned criminal laws, there are so many more benifits such as corporte laws fighting against riba. Meetings between the G8 wouldnt even be necessary anymore.

[Guhaad]

This would be an interesting experiment sh. Nur. i am afraid if they can't let this happen in a place as far as Somalia, it would be close to impossible to test in Brooklyn, New York. One thing is true, if the UIC stopped a non-sense, family-based, world-run war, qaat, qurun, annihilation and hallucination policies and industry in Xamar that the international community long lost hope in. if the UIC turned that into what it is today, a boosting city, with the possibility of openning up its financial bases, rebuilding its infrastructure, training and demobilizing the militias, and constituting structural system of governance, law and order, as well as the opportunity of peace talks with the TFG. if the UIC can do that much in the poorest place in the world, they can sure do the same in the richest on in a heartbeat.

 

Sh. Nur nice take on the topic. I like how you compared and contrasted the two systems, to come up with the final conclusion of your report. cutting hands might seem gruesome, but what people don't realize is that, first, it is used only as a deterrent, and second, one man's hand is also saving thousands and millions of other people who don't want to end up the same way.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Nur:

The rise of the Islamic courts in Somalia has given a new impetus for discussing the merits of present secular criminal correctional systems in place in ( Materially) develeped nations but morally bankrupt, such as France and the US.

 

Oh! The stench of Occidentalism oozing out of that is insufferable Nur!

 

Decrying Western moral bankruptcy and louding Eastern (or any non-Western culture) moral/spiritual supriority is rather old game and quite passe. The Nazis were convinced Western moral and spiritual compass was de-magnetized by corruption brought about by you guessed right the JEWS and seeked to rectify by reverting back to some arcane primaeval Germanic spiritualism. The Japanese believed similarly as the fanaticism of Japanese soldiers in the Pacific wars can attest. They were so sure of their moral and spiritual supriority over Western armies to even deign surrender. Ditto for Al-Quida.

 

At every instant in history where the Occident was confronted with foes imbibed with moral and spiritual supriority over them, the West came out unblemished. What is that tell you? Think about it. As for me, I use history as best indicator of the present and future. I refuse to accept the depth of turpitude West is accused of by its detractors. History amply refutes such suggestion.

[Nur]

Socod Badane

 

I assume that the only problem you have with my write-up to be my views of western morality, which implies that you agree with the rest of the article ( Cutting Costs) and about the causes of economic burden on the western secular democracies, specially the ineffective western judicial system which provides a revolving door for criminals, a burden too high for tax payers to bear.

 

So let me ask you about the Morality. What is your opinion on new morality of social perversions that lead to AIDS?

 

Nur

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Nur:

Socod Badane

 

I assume that the only problem you have with my write-up to be my views of western morality...

 

 

Not really, I disagreed with the brunt of your post. I exercised some discretion (which I CAN as unlikely as that may sound), that's all.

 

 

specially the ineffective western judicial system which provides a revolving door for criminals, a burden too high for tax payers to bear.

 

Here is good example of what I disagree with. It's a bit of a stretch to say the Western Legal system is ineffective. While it has long way to go to be as effective as it can be, I think it's the best Legal system extant anywhere in the world. You yourself point out the revolving door for many criminals in the West but at least they're apprehended, tried and locked up. The staggeringly long backlog of cases in most Western Legal systems is suggestive of it's effectiveness in my view. Same can not be said of other competing legal systems. YOur blinkered take on Western Judicial system betrays the facts of it.

 

It's worth bringing to your attention the inappropriateness of comparing Western Legal system and Islamic legal system. One is secular the other religious. In the Western Legal system, sin is not considered a crime nor is sex between consenting adults (marriages excluded for infidelity reasons); crime fitting the punishment is paramount concept while legal recourse to every aggreived citizen is inviolable right. Western Legal System is (for the most part) independent since majority of Western states are under trias politica or separtion of powers into Judicial, Excutive and Legislature. The list is long but I think you catch my drift.

 

 

What is your opinion on new morality of social perversions that lead to AIDS?

Since you mentioned AIDS, by social perversions I think you mean promiscuousness. If so, I have to correct you by pointing out morality is unrelated to licentiousness. The latter is Customs proper and naturally varies from culture to culture. Morality -- killing, stealing, lying etc -- is consistent across all cultures. Guess why that is!

 

Now, is it your position that the prevelance of AIDS is direct result of promiscuousness? I can prove to you otherwise.

[Nur]

Socod Badane

 

You write:

 

" Now, is it your position that the prevelance of AIDS is direct result of promiscuousness? I can prove to you otherwise"

 

 

Please do, I am eagerly waiting.

 

 

You write:

 

Not really, I disagreed with the brunt of your post. I exercised some discretion (which I CAN as unlikely as that may sound), that's all.

 

Why hide behind discretion when you inadvertently answered candidly when you wrote"

 

The staggeringly long backlog of cases in most Western Legal systems is suggestive of it's effectiveness in my view

 

staggering long backlogs? you must have forgotten the ( in ) before ( effectiveness) it should have read ineffectiveness! you see, truth is difficult to hide, let it out!

 

Dont hold it, let it flow, the Western system is showing cracks and its usual, form Pharaoh's time, to the present all great civilizations peaked, hit a plateau and then descended to give room to another concept more in tune with the people.

 

Did it ever occur to you that this long backlogs of criminal cases to be a sign of failure of a system? like chronic plaque leading to a heart attack in the veins of this civilization? the winds of change has began, and from a civilization that endured far longer than the western, Islam is not man made, it trancends politics and lies, if left untampered, the islamic system can bring happiness to western world, and nothing is wrong to admit that its failing.

 

We in Somalia have tried many versions of the western system, but because our people are Muslims, it failed repeatedly, even with the backing and funding of western nations and their material prodding of public thieves to power and excluding the mainstream Islamist sympathizers who drove the Islamic courts to an unprecedneted victory over the ( IGAD, AU, EU, USA and Ethiopia) backed criminal warlords.

 

All of these organizations tried to set up a clan based government for Somalia for the past 15 years to dilute the majority Islamist sympathizers and the Islamic identity of Somalia (There was no Islamist representation in TFG ) , to set up a secular government and to export a non working western criminal system, but the people of Mogadishu long waiting for peace to get on with their lives, were fed up with Johnny-come-lately bandaid solutions packaged with claims of fighting international terrorism, and employing thugs and murderers and phoney AID NOGOs and grave scavengers, whose sole individualist intentions destroyed the nation that once stood proud and peaceful in the horn of Africa.

 

 

Nur

[Naden]

Nur,

 

The Moral of the story: Cutting Hands (of criminals) is literally Cutting Costs!

We can spray for mosquitoes all we want but if we have rotting, standing water, they will keep on coming!

 

I watched a program on a news show that profiled a work training project for a group of women in a prison. Their crimes ranged from fraud, theft, and child abuse to more serious felonies. The premise of the project was to reduce recidivism by training this largely unskilled population in needed trades. They were trained in making pastries and restaurant management. The project seems so needed that female inmates in other prisons are rushing in with transfer requests and a rotating system is now in place. What’s interesting is that the majority of these women belong in one of 3 categories: poor background, uneducated, minority.

 

The idea that the Mogadishu courts can solve the problem of theft (I gather that’s why you bring up this particular punishment) is an interesting one. Of course, it remains to be seen how these courts would solve that society’s problems in the long run. They certainly have done an admirable job curtailing the warlords. How they could possibly solve the deep racial and economic disparities behind the crimes of many of the 2 million incarcerated and not just the individual punishment of criminals will remain in the realm of thoughts.

 

My guess is that when these Islamic Courts are running a society as rich and complex as the one in the US, their justice system will closely mimic the one already in place. It leaves a great deal to be desired as it contains a significant racial/ethnic policy but cutting the hands of thousands of already poor and undereducated people will not be a sufficient replacement.

 

A thief, blue collar who swindles billions or a petty thief who snatches a purse from a lady are not punished the same in the Sharia. The blue collar thief's hand is chopped off, to cut cost of incarceration, and as a deterrent for would be thieves.

Kenneth Lay died yesterday and I would have liked to see him go to his grave missing a few body parts. His money bought him great defense, time outside of prison, and all the other perks of privilege. Isn’t that what separates the punishment of the powerful and powerless in sharia-based sentences as well as seen in a country like Saudi Arabia? My thought is justice precedes punishment, equality before privilege, and humanity before the knife. These, in my opinion, are the serious challenges for any judicial system, sharia included.

 

The petty thief can be warned the first time, wipped the second time, by his thrid time, his hand is chopped off.

So the punishment for both a white collar criminal and a petty thief is ultimately the same except for the warning? Certainly, one has the possibility to continue life after the amputation (with even the means of re-attachment) and one is left even an greater ward of the state because physical disability is added to their impediments.

 

Rehabilitation programs are expensive, can be poorly run, and maybe ineffective for many, but many crimes and criminals are a serious reflection of societal rot and injustice especially in a racially stratified society like the US. I’m not saying that prisons aren’t full of cruel, calculating, insufferable people or that the prison system doesn't create many serious problems. ‘Cutting’ the cost of crime would need to address this societal rot and injustice as well.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Nur:

Socod Badane

 

You write:

 

"

Now, is it your position that the prevelance of AIDS is direct result of promiscuousness? I can prove to you otherwise"

 

 

Please do, I am eagerly waiting.

 

 

Here is a study which flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Among it's eye-catching findings include: equal rate of infection between muslim majority nations and Western Europe. If it's your conviction that AIDS infection rates reflect the promiscuousness of a society then you got your work cut out explaining away why traditionally conservative Islamic societies seem to have same infection rates as their European counterparts.

 

 

staggering long backlogs? you must have forgotten the ( in ) before ( effectiveness) it should have read ineffectiveness! you see, truth is difficult to hide, let it out!

 

Well it's only matter of time before those backlogs are cleared up. But if you want to see as it as sign of ineffectiveness, that's your prerogative. Some people say voter apathy in the West is reflection of public disillusionment or loss of faith in the system. I'm with others who see it as satisfaction.

 

 

Study

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

quote:Originally posted by Nur:

Socod Badane

 

You write:

 

"

Now, is it your position that the prevelance of AIDS is direct result of promiscuousness? I can prove to you otherwise"

 

 

Please do, I am eagerly waiting.

 

 

Here is a study which flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Among it's eye-catching findings include: equal rate of infection between muslim majority nations and Western Europe. If it's your conviction that AIDS infection rates reflect the promiscuousness of a society then you got your work cut out explaining away why traditionally conservative Islamic societies seem to have same infection rates as their European counterparts.

AIDS and STDs do come as a result of the level of promisciousness of a society. However, if you have the awareness and the health infrastructure you can readily prevent the natural consequences(AIDS and STDs) of your promisciousness. It is amazing that HIV rates are as low as they are in Muslim countries given the huge gap in awareness/education and health infrastructure vis-a-vis Europe. It is one of the few positive aspects of the Islamic world of late.

[Viking]

Nur,

I understand what you are getting at but some conditions have to be met before hadd is imposed. A future islamic govt in Somalia has to put in place a social welfare system, a working healthcare and education system before cutting off limbs. Naden has a point when she says you have to drain the dirty water to get rid of the mosquitoes.

 

The US has people of ethnic minority and from poor backgrounds populating their prisons. If their system was more socialist than capitalist, perhaps the situation would have been different. Many forget too that the prison system in USA is a business just like any other in the country.

 

Just wondering, hypothetically, let's say Somalia perhaps 50 years down the line, is an Islamic state using hadd and has managed to achieve a relatively high level of technological advancement. If the thief's hand is amputated, can he be allowed to take it with him in a pack of ice to the nearest surgeon for re-attachment? It sounds funny but what if there's a loophole and no consensus among the scholars?

 

Socod_badne,

If Shari'a Law is applied well, you probably wouldn't have any problem with it. The problem is that the examples that come to mind are Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria et al. Shari'a Law is there to protect the people not to harm them and if the procedures are dealt with fairly then it would be welcomed by the population. I know you think it sounds idealistic, with all right, remember that the Occidentals do their utmost best to thwart any upcoming Islamic state and leave the sorry ones as examples they can point to to win brownie points.

 

The spread of AIDS and other VD's is in relation to the level of promiscuity in a society. Sub-Saharan counties are suffering the most because promiscuity is very much prevalent and even encouraged in their "macho-culture". In most sub-Saharan countries, it is frowned upon to use a condom because it is seen to rob men of their pleasure. In many cases, there is also another factor, alcohol. Alcohol impairs a human's judgement and after leaving the pub, club, bar etc late at night with a stranger they met, most are drunk and don't remember or bother to protect themselves.

 

The link you gave doesn't say much and contains no statistics. They refer to other pages and the important ones require membership to access. If the level of AIDS can be the same in the west as it is in Muslim countries (very low as compared to East Asia and sub-Saharan Africa) the levels must be quite good keeping in mind the fact that most Muslim countries are very poor and do not have the as is the case in wealthier western countries. Imagine how well they would have done if they had the health budget of the USA, France, Germany or Switzerland.

 

Plus, putting some Muslim countries in their statistcs might be a bit unfair since they have a sizeable non-Muslim population, countries like...

 

-Syria has almost 20% non-Muslim

-Nigeria has 50% non-Muslim

-Ethiopia has almost 50% non-Muslim

-Sudan has 30% non-Muslim

-Albania has 30% non-Muslim

-Lebanon has 40% non-Muslim etc etc.

 

So the kind of statistics employed can not be completely fair to the Muslims countries.

 

Look at this map of Africa and if you know your geography well then you'll notice a distinct difference between Muslim and non-Muslim countries when it comes to HIV prvalence. I'm not telling you Muslims are immune to AIDS but they are less affected by the disease because promiscuity levels are lower mainly because of Islam. Their awareness (or education levels) are not any higher than other poor countries so it must be their faith that helps them.

[Nur]

Naden

 

Excellent points!

 

you write:

 

cutting the hands of thousands of already poor and undereducated people will not be a sufficient replacement.

 

Walaalo, how many would be thieves would dare to steal when a public awareness campaign is held n which a scarry amputation is administered in fulll public view? the idea is a DETERRENCE, just like Nuclear bombs have secured peace between superpowers as they are afraid to go MAD ( Mutual Assured Destruction), no one dares to strike.

 

But I fully agree with you that the the soil must be ready for application so that injustice is addressed before the application of such law so that the rich dont buy their way out of the punishment like the west.

 

The stench that is creating the crime has to be cleared first, your mosquito analogy is brilliant.

 

As for humanity, since I have agreed with you the importance of a sound impartial judicial system in place, what remains is the humanity perspective of the punishment issue, to have a society in which no one dares to think harming others would be very humane as it provides peace and security for the citizens while it sends the most dreadful discouragement to would be criminals. A young jogger lady running alone in a park at midnight can be secure ( Thus humane) if the owuld be rapist lurking behind the bushes knows that he will be stoned to death if he dares to touch that woman. On the othet hand, if the worst that can happen to the serial rapist is a jail sentence in which the victims tax money pays for his food and incarceration, clothing, education, entertainment and placement, then no woman will safe jogging at night in a park, denying her her freedom ( humanity). Nuclear bombs are devastating, the movie the Day-After shows the scenes, but we have only used them twice in modern history, Japan' s President is now singing Elivis Pressley's songs, not war songs.

 

As for the complexity of the factors that lead to crime in Western countries, in addition to the erosion of the role of religious teachings, the main reason is the non-uniform laws in local jusrisdictions ( From state to state, laws vary widely, while they recognize each other as legitimate) which creates multiple loop holes and revolving door justice.

 

The failure of Democracy is due to the influence of the rich to buy votes from the poor, the failure of the Judicial system stems from the influence of money in buying better quality defense, which creates the stench that creates the mosquitoes and non ending vicious circle.

 

As for the Mogadishu Courts ability to deliver a solution to America at this stage, my suggestion was half joking, half serious, the courts have to develop a structured judicial apparatus, which is not in place yet.

 

 

Nur

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Viking:

The spread of AIDS and other VD's is in relation to the level of promiscuity in a society. Sub-Saharan counties are suffering the most because promiscuity is very much prevalent and even encouraged in their "macho-culture". In most sub-Saharan countries, it is frowned upon to use a condom because it is seen to rob men of their pleasure. In many cases, there is also another factor, alcohol. Alcohol impairs a human's judgement and after leaving the pub, club, bar etc late at night with a stranger they met, most are drunk and don't remember or bother to protect themselves.

Interesting analysis Viking - but I couldn't disagree more with the statement in this quote that Sub-saharan Africans are more 'promiscous' etc. That is total rubbish. These Africans are no more promiscous than Europeans or Americans or what have you. What is different is the abject lack of education and health infrastructure. That is what has led to the present infection rates.

[Viking]

The Point,

I understand what you mean sxb. Some of what I wrote must have been lost before I pressed the send button. I initially wrote about the difference prophylaxis and retrovirals has made to the lives if AIDS victims living in the wealthier west as compared to Muslim countries and sub-Saharan Africa.

[Socod_badne]

Viking and The Point,

 

It would be the height of folly of me to deny: the greater sexual encounters with strangers, the greater chances to contract HIV. The stats are too stacked up against and too conclusive to say otherwise.

 

I was, indirectly, trying to get Nur to agree with something many pious muslims refuse. That being muslims are either mired in (to greater or lesser degree) the same activities commonly attributed to the spread of HIV or are as susceptible as any other people. Too many muslims for comfort falsely believe they're immune from the AIDS menace by default. This report points this out and lays the blame, for this mindset on the continual denial of the serious threat posed by AIDS, squarly on the shoulders of leaders.

 

Also, while admitting spread of venereal diseases is aided by unwholesome sexual practices, that in of itself is not foolproof evidence against mitigating factors not as causal if not more. Attenuating factors like decent public health system, public awareness and education etc etc. The West is best example. Here is a society where casual sexual encounters with strangers is not too uncommon and yet has warded off the spread of AIDS to alarming levels.

 

All in all, the take away message from this report is this: AIDS doesn't discriminate on religion, race, political idealogy etc... everyone is vulnerable!