Dividing Palestinians Won’t Work

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by BiLaaL:

quote:Originally posted by NGONGE:

[QB] BiLal,

Civilians did die in this latest conflict. Most did so at the hands of Hamas fighters.

Whats you're definition of a civilian? At least in Gaza, Hamas were battling Fatah's security forces. At what stage does a gun-wielding Fatah fighter become a civilian?

 

Your notion that Abbas stopped his security forces from fighting back in Gaza is totally flawed. Fatah's Western-armed but poorly trained fighters were completely routed by Hamas fighters. Serious analysts are in agreement with regards to this point. There's more to the story as Northerner's post indicates. This is a

breaking story

so don't draw any hasty conclusions just yet.

 

P.S. I'd caution you against greeting other people's posts with a concert of abuse. The ignorance slur was totally uncalled for. If you have a point to contend then do so but without resorting to slurs.

I ask you again if you have been following the news! As this drama unfolded, various Fattah members gave interviews criticising the president for being slow in moving against Hamas or ordering his Fattah fighters to fight back. These are FACTS. Look them up!

 

As for calling people ignorant. Hmm! If you saw a man that can't make use of his eyes, would you call him blind? How about one that has ears but can't hear? Deaf? One that walks with a limp? Cripple? Well, Peacenow displays clear signs of ignorance. This is not an uncalled for personal attack, this is an attack on his views (if one could call them that). His revelation that Arafat had AIDS is not worth contending with. I called it as I saw it, ignorant! And I shall keep calling such nonsense ignorant until these kids either improve their arguments or not bother to post at all (both options are satisfactory to me).

 

But, you are right; we should not jump the gun. This remains to be a breaking story and there are so many twists and turns to come before we reach the end. However, and here I would like to beckon Castro closer, I don't think the eventual outcome will be a total breakdown in communication between Fattah and Hamas.

 

I remember when Arafat was accused of being a traitor. The man who dedicated his entire life to the cause and did not (to any seeing eyes at least) seem to have any material/worldly gains from it (despite what the Israeli propaganda said). A man that died whilst surrounded and locked up in his own presidential compound. Yet, neither Hamas, Islamic Jihad nor any other Palestinian group had a single bad word to say about him! Sure, they criticised elements within his Fattah party but no dirty slurs were ever (officially) thrown his way. Today, we have the same thing again with Abu Mazen! I'm not saying that we might not discover that he is indeed a traitor and a turncoat, however, today, the Hamas leadership are not calling him that. It's not as if Hamas has ever been backwards about coming forward with an accusation or two when they thought the target merited such accusations! So, why are they picking on Mohamed Dahlan and others but not on Abu Mazen (directly and explicitly)?

 

Those that oppose the Somali president or the Afghani president don't usually hold back. They call a spade a spade (as one much missed Nomad used to say). The Palestinians (Hamas) on the other hand are holding back! They still refer to Abu Mazen as MR PRESIDENT, not traitor, not mercenary, not pimp or a sell-out. They still call him president!

 

I don't even think the discussion here has really started. I'm just annoyed by your readiness to break it into sides and choosing a righteous side without having the complete facts. It's clearly possible that both Hamas and Fattah contain elements that are interested in power, control and disunity rather than the real and serious goal of fighting the occupation. It's more than certain that both sides have made mistakes and are going to make more mistakes. But, it is also definite (as the title of this thread suggests) that these two groups have no choice but to WORK with each other. Something I believe they will.

[BiLaaL]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

I ask you again if you have been following the news! As this drama unfolded, various Fattah members gave interviews criticising the president for being slow in moving against Hamas or ordering his Fattah fighters to fight back. These are FACTS. Look them up!

I'm aware of the interviews you mention but i don't rely on them as 'facts'. Its not their existence that i deny but the unfaithfulness of those who have uttered them. If Abbas had a security force strong enough to confront Hamas's, he wouldn't have hesitated to confront them for a moment. Indeed, the west would have forced him to do just that. However, the reality as acknowledged both by the West and Fatah is that Hamas is the undisputed force in the territories for the time being. Fatah would risk annihilation if it attempted confronting Hamas.

 

Again, the interviews you refer to were given by emtionally charged ministers who lack knowledge on the security dynamics of the territories. Their words carry no weight.

 

I called it as I saw it, ignorant! And I shall keep calling such nonsense ignorant until these kids either improve their arguments or not bother to post at all

.

I still think there are better ways of addressing diverging views. Frankly, i'm not a fan of Arafat either. It seems the endemic corruption of Fatah was not a limited one. Arafat himself was accused of stashing public funds into his Swiss accounts. In any case, lets not ponder on his legacy. Every soul will have to give account to the ultimate judge on the day of Al-Ghashiya.

 

I'm not saying that we might not discover that he is indeed a traitor and a turncoat, however, today, the Hamas leadership are not calling him that

.

Hamas would commit political suicide, in the eyes of the West, if they were to call Abbas a traitor. Whether Hamas call him a traitor or not is not all that important though. His actions speak volumes.

 

I don't even think the discussion here has really started. I'm just annoyed by your readiness to break it into sides and choosing a

righteous

side without having the complete facts

.

The essential facts have been evident for a long time. I'd choose the side which does not comprise on its ideals. Hamas have not. Fatah always does.

 

It's more than certain that both sides have made mistakes and are going to make more mistakes. But, it is also definite (as the title of this thread suggests) that these two groups have no choice but to WORK with each other. Something I believe they will.

This is where i strongly disagree with you. Two sides whose visions are so far apart can never work together. Either Fatah will rehabilitate itself into a proper anti-occupation movement and stop acting as a proxy for the West or engage in a perpetual struggle with Hamas. A struggle which it cannot win despite Western money and arms. In the end, the visions of Hamas and Fatah will have to merge or one of them will have to leave the scene. Its illogical to expect that Fatah and Hamas will ever work together. They may work together in the short term but never on a long term basis.

[NGONGE]

^^^

Hamas would commit political suicide, in the eyes of the West, if they were to call Abbas a traitor. Whether Hamas call him a traitor or not is not all that important though. His actions speak volumes.

Heh. Yet Hamas are still willing to work with him and are NOT calling him a traitor! Am I missing something here, saaxib?

 

 

The essential facts have been evident for a long time. I'd choose the side which does not comprise on its ideals. Hamas have not. Fatah always does.

This is the same Hamas that does not want to commit political suicide, right?

 

Hamas compromised on its ideals when it stood up for elections in an occupied land. I did not say that by the way, the Hamas Prime Minster did (last night). They compromised because they accepted that such compromises were needed for Unity. Look up his speech and listen to what he said.

 

This is where i strongly disagree with you. Two sides whose visions are so far apart can never work together. Either Fatah will rehabilitate itself into a proper anti-occupation movement and stop acting as a proxy for the West or engage in a perpetual struggle with Hamas. A struggle which it cannot win despite Western money and arms. In the end, the visions of Hamas and Fatah will have to merge or one of them will have leave the scene. Its illogical to expect that Fatah and Hamas will ever work together. They may work together in the short term but never on a long term basis.

They'll work together because their land is under occupation and they have no other choice. They'll work together because Palestine is not only Hamas or Fattah but also a dozen other groupings and independents all vying for the loyalties of the public. They both know that there is no other way.

 

 

Fattah is and has always been a liberation movement. If it's the Hamas suicide bombers who caught your fancy and made you fall for that group then the Fattah boys have been just as brutal and silly with their Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

 

I'm aware of the interviews you mention but i don't rely on them as 'facts'. Its not their existence that i deny but the unfaithfulness of those who have uttered them. If Abbas had a security force strong enough to confront Hamas's, he wouldn't have hesitated to confront them for a moment. Indeed, the west would have forced him to do just that. However, the reality as acknowledged both by the West and Fatah is that Hamas is the undisputed force in the territories for the time being. Fatah would risk annihilation if it attempted confronting Hamas.

It's not only the interviews though. It's also Abbas's silence in the face of the Hamas attacks and his Minster's criticisms! He only started doing things and declaring a state of emergency AFTER Hamas took control of Gaza. This is tiresome my friend. If we're going to discuss things let us do it with facts. Not spin.

 

ps

I can't let the Arafat accusation go. The man has been dead for a couple of years now and STILL there is no sign of all that money you all claim he's been stashing away!

 

pps

On the diverging views point (re peacenow) I beg to differ, his ignorant views have to be pointed out for what they are. Either he comes to the table KNOWING what he's talking about or I'll just call him ignorant. It's the way of the world, saaxib.

[BiLaaL]

If we're going to discuss things let us do it with facts. Not spin.

Facts are themselves products of manipulation. Genuine facts are hard to come by in that part of the world. I think our argument comes down to which group truly cares about the cause of Palestine. I seem to think Hamas. You Fatah. Anything outside of this is pure conjecture. Having said that, i do acknowlege and respect your views.

[Faarax-Brawn]

The sudden release of funds & the support from Isreael should clearly show where things are headed for...The roadmap to disaster.

 

How does a govt get kicked out of its territory & then turn around to fire the very same people that overpowered them?

 

Mohamud Abass's problems started the day he was labelled a "moderate"(code red for Puppet). Today's problematic world politics has no room for weak leaders. He should resign period.

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by BiLaaL:

quote:If we're going to discuss things let us do it with facts. Not spin.

Facts are themselves products of manipulation. Genuine facts are hard to come by in that part of the world. I think our argument comes down to which group truly cares about the cause of Palestine. I seem to think Hamas. You Fatah. Anything outside of this is pure conjecture. Having said that, i do acknowlege and respect your views.

Heh. The vagueness is suffocating. Almost everything in this world is based on conjecture. But one would still have to reach a position based on an educated guess or an informed opinion. To say it’s conjuncture and that my opinion is as good as yours is nothing but a simple cop out really!

 

For your information, I don’t think only Hamas cares about the future of Palestine. I believe all Palestinian groups do. That these groups contain traitors, hotheads and opportunists is a natural result of being under occupation.

 

I agree with FB though, I think it’s time Abu Mazen resigned and let another less tarnished man take over. However, I fear that even if Marwan Bargouti were to be released and taken power, all his past deeds will be forgotten and he too will sooner or later be accused of being a collaborator.

 

Still, I am not asking you to forsake Hamas. They’re as brave and as nationalistic as any other group. However, try not to be too bias and demonise all other groups just because of some perceived errors you think they made.

[Wigad]

You guys amaze me with your writing skills wish i had them

[N.O.R.F]

^^Maybe you do but just havnt realised it yet.

[N.O.R.F]

Hamas brought about its own downfall

By Sami Moubayed, Special to Gulf News

Published: June 25, 2007, 23:31

 

 

Hamas as we knew it died a long time ago, back in January 2006. The selfless Hamas, interested in nothing but liberation and justice for the Palestinians, committed political suicide when it decided to abandon the bullet in favour of the ballot.

 

After many years in the resistance, and tired of the hard life, these kinds of groups usually go for the new, flashy title and comfortable lifestyle. It happened with the National Bloc of Syria, whose leaders liberated their country from the French in 1946, only to be ejected with little respect or ceremony by a military coup d'etat (because of their errors while in power) in 1949.

 

It happened to Fatah itself, whose leaders enchanted the world with their heroism in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, only to become as corrupt as some of their counterparts in the 1990s after Oslo.

 

The mistakes of Fatah led to their humiliating defeat in the legislative elections of 2006. It is in the process of happening with Hezbollah, whose leaders want the best of all possible worlds; the titles of both freedom fighter and statesmen. The minute all these parties became immersed in the dirty game of politics, they were no longer utopian heroes but rather ordinary politicians who are subject to ridicule, hatred, and often very harsh criticism.

 

Hamas knew all of that, but it went ahead with its political programme in 2006, promising the Palestinians an end to corruption, higher wages, more jobs and social equality. These slogans, coming from credible politicians with an until then unblemished record, revealed the weaknesses of post-Arafat Fatah. Then reality sank in. Life in government was not so easy after all, and the dirty game of politics required tactics that the leaders of Hamas simply could not do.

 

Keeping their posts was seemingly more important to them than the ordinary Palestinian citizen who was paying a high price for their views. To be fair, we must acknowledge that Hamas was maltreated by the Arabs and the international community, especially the US, due to the embargo imposed on the Occupied Territories since January 2006. They were not given a chance to prove themselves. But life is not fair, especially in the Middle East. Had they been left to govern in a normal manner, then results would have judged Hamas fairly. In a democratic system, if Hamas performs well in power, it gets to keep its parliamentary majority. If it does not, it fails in the next parliamentary elections. It's that simple.

 

The example of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan speaks volumes about how to deal with Islamic movements. The late King Hussain realised that the Muslim Brotherhood was becoming too strong in Jordanian society, and threatening him with the overwhelming popularity they had in the Jordanian street. That was because they were untried in government, the King reasoned. Rather than suppress them, he permitted them to run for parliament. Once in power, they were automatically ruined because they were no longer able to deliver. If Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas had the courage and vision of King Hussain, he should have courted Hamas in anticipation of its downfall in the upcoming parliamentary elections.

 

Clear

 

If one goes back to the statements of Hamas during the early weeks of their victory, it is very clear that they were trying to come across as statesmen. By actually joining the political process, they were legitimising the Oslo Accords. This is especially clear with the local leadership: men such as Esmail Haniya who wanted to pay wages, find jobs and run a state. That was not the case, however, with exiled leaders such as Khaleed Mesha'al, who would have preferred a non-governmental Hamas that was free to do what it does best: wage war against Israel.

 

Mesha'al realised early on that Hamas had lost on both fronts when it came to power in 2006. It could no longer wage war, because of the limits of government office and the need to be accepted by the international community. And its leaders could also never stand as credible statesmen because of their views, history and Islamic ideology. The embargo, along with the provocations of Fatah, were what led to the blood circus in Gaza in June 2006. Hamas behaved like a wild animal when it launched a coup against Fatah, storming the city, insulting the symbols of Palestinian statehood and declaring its authority over the Gaza Strip. That was a mistake. But the manner in which Abbas dealt with the crisis was also a mistake.

 

Hamas will not disappear only because it has been outlawed by Abbas and criticised by his Arab counterparts. The appointment of Salam Fayyad as prime minister, against the wishes of Hamas, will not end the Islamic group's violence. Hamas is a reality - a difficult one - that Abbas must deal with and digest or it will choke him to death. He wants a disarmed Hamas.

 

Well, it is clear that he won't be able to do it because neither Israel, nor the US, or the UN, or even Arafat were able to disarm the Islamic resistance.

 

The closest thing we ever had to a disarmed Hamas was the Hamas of January 2006 onwards. It was a Hamas restricted by government office. The only way to prevent Hamas from being a state-within-a-state is to make Hamas the state itself - or part of the state. If they succeed - while observing norms and international agreements such as Oslo, they get to keep the state. If they fail, they will be ejected by the ballot.

 

Since January 2006 Hamas did not fire a single bullet against Israel. The US - and Israel itself - failed to invest in that and pressured Hamas into becoming more radical, which resulted in: Gaza 2007.

 

Sami Moubayed is a Syrian political analyst.

 

gulfnews.com

[rudy-Diiriye]

where ever i go in this world, pals are always my friends. some how, these ppl are somalis in white color. good ppl but always suffer from bad govt.

 

so i guess just like somalis, they will break up into pieces.lol

 

i see it now in my head!! Gaz pals and west bank pals. get use to it.

[Taleexi]

Originally posted by Castro:

Mahmoud Abbas cares about the Palestinians as much as Karzai does of the Afghanis and Yey does of Somalis: zilch. All three share the same nijaas collaborator DNA.

These above figures are the products (the sons) of their respective countries, like it or not they are something to be reckon with. No question about it that we downgraded ourselves to little nobodies who can't even put their acts together in their yards yet we at least attempt to be experts on other people's affairs.. BS must be terminated ..and we must get down to the real business

[Jacaylbaro]

Installing unwanted governments and bringing presidents by force without the will of the people is the new form of re-colonization in the world.

 

 

tolow what is next ,,,,,,,,,