Salafi_Online Posted June 23, 2004 Innalhamdulillah Rules: Rule #1: we stick to one topic at a time; We must refrain from jumping from one topic to another Rule #2: you must provide solid evidence for your discourse, mere opinion based upon media bias will not suffice, and if this becomes a trend, withdrawal from the discussion is expected. Ruler #3: NO one can aid both participates Rule #4: You must address all the points, Rule #5: One must provide counter arguments, Ie. I will not be doing all the responding, but you must respond to my questions as well. Rule #6: Lets use Adaab (Manners) and Fear Allah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted June 23, 2004 Innalhamdulillah Foremost, It would be fitting to give a difintion of Ahad for the Audience: ***Mutawaatir vs. Aahaad - Definitions*** Mutawaatir refers to a hadith whose narrators in each level of its chain of transmission are so numerous that it is not possible for all of them to have conspired in falsehood - whether intentionally or mistakenly. The aahaad is a hadith that does not meet the requirement for the mutawaatir hadith Truth Seeker agreed: There are two types of hadith in terms of narration, Ahad where the narrations are 1 or fewer that Mutawtir. Mutawatir there are that many narrations that the hadith could not have been misreported. From these two definitions it is clear that Ahad may contain doubt as the narrations are to few and mutwatir there is 100% certainty. Hence we now look at aqeedah, aqeedah is that which we have firm belief in therefore it cannot contain doubt, hence you cannot take ahad hadith into aqeedah. Now on Hizb-ut-Tahrir / Mahajiroon and how they have strayed upon belief (aqeeda). And when one deviates upon belief(Aqeeda) - then how can they be guided upon rules, regulations, specially on politics : From the early sects which denied Eemaan (firm faith) in The Punishment of the Grave were the Khawaarij and other groups from the Mu'tazilah sect. This is because they innovated a rule that only the Mutawatir ahaadeeth amount to knowledge & aqeeda(creed), whereas the Authentic Aahaad Ahaadeeth do not !!. And this saying of theirs, that the aahaad Ahaadeeth do not amount to aqeeda(creed) means that such Ahaadeeth - in their false opinion - are not free from the possibility of falsehood or error. The Punishment of the Grave which is established by aahaad Ahaadeeth is part of the Muslim Creed and consequently aahaad Ahaadeeth do make our 'Aqeedah (Belief ): Prove: affirmed by Truth Seeker himself! we definately beleive in it but do not take something that may have doubt in it into aqeedah.. Lets look at what the founder of The Hizbu Taheer,Taqee-ud-deen an-Nabahani has to say about the Ahaad Hadith, He said in his book Ad-Dawsiyyah, p.6 "Indeed from them are those which require action, so they are acted upon (i.e. the Aahaad Ahaadeeth). So from Abu Hurayrah who said: When any of you finishes the last tashahud, he should seek refuge with Allaah from the four things: from The Punishment of the Hellfire, from Punishment of the Grave, from the trials of life and death, and from the evil trials of the Dajjal". From A'isha: from the Prophet (saas): that he used to make supplication in prayer: "O Allaah, I seek refuge in You from The Punishment of the Grave, I seek refuge in You from the trials of the Maseehud-Dajjaal, I seek refuge in You from the trials of life and death. O Allaah, I seek refuge in You from debt and sin". So these two ahaadeeth are aahaad narrations and they contain requirement of an action, i.e. to carry out this supplication after tashahud, and it is permissible to attest (tasdeeq) to what is contained in them. However, what is haraam (forbidden) is to hold it with certainty - meaning: to have it as part as one's 'Aqeedah- as long as it has been reported in the aahaad hadeeth, a dhannee (non-mutawatir) proof. However, if it occurs in mutawatir form, then it is obligatory to make it part of one's 'Aqeedah;. This statement clearly represents the innovated ways of the Qadariyyah and the Mu'tazilah. Differentiating between tasdeeq and 'Aqeedah is innovated speech and away from the Salaf. Imaam Shafi'ee (d.204H), said: "Indeed the Punishment of the Grave is a true fact, the Resurrection is a true fact ..." {Manhaj ash-Shafi'ee, of al-Bayhaqi, 1/415.} ***Items of Belief Founded on Aahaad Hadith, Rejected by the Hizbu Tahreer *** The following are examples of matters of creed which are accepted by the righteous salaf and the great scholars of this Ummah as being part of the Creed of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah even though they are founded on aahaad ahaadeeth. (1) All the miracles of the Messenger (Saws) other than the Qur'ân (2) The description of the angels, the jinn, the Jannah, and Janaham (the Fire). (3) The belief that both the Jannah and the Fire are presently existing (4) The belief that ten (10) companions of the Messenger (Saws) were specifically promised the Jannah. (5) The belief that Allaah (T) has prohibited the earth from eating the bodies of the Messengers. (6) The belief in the punishment in the grave ... these are just a few of them.... For those who are upon the Manhaj of the Salaf, then all you have to do is look into the works of Imam As-Shaafi'ee. Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee's 'ar-Risaala' on the Chapter X on " Evidence to the necessaty of accepting the Aahaad Khabar" al Imam As-Shafi'ee introduced a new subject, the single- individual narration, Khabr al Wahid(One Narrator). Al Imam al Shafi'i then explained what is meant by this term, and the conditions which determine whether or not a narration is of the single-individual variety. The difference between testimony and reporting, Shahadah and Riwayah, was explained; as were those matters which may be accepted through a single-individual narration, and those for which a Khabr al Wahid alone is not sufficient. Then al Imam al Shafi'i discussed the authority of the Khabr al Wahid, and whether such reports could be adduced as evidence. His conclusion, supported by very sound arguments, was that indeed they could be used. and in Saheeh al-Bukhaaree, English translation, volume 9, "Chapter: What is said regarding the acceptance of the information given by one truthful person..." It is evident that Sahih Bukhari Accepted A single narrator and classified his/her hadith as Sahih Thus, the Hizbu Tahreer are upon a different 'Aqeeda then the Salaf, Truth Seeker, if your belief 'Aqeedah is different from the Salaf(companions) - then your politics will be further away from them regardless of what you may think Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sahal Posted June 23, 2004 Salafi you're good manouever, manoeuvering is a main feauture of your group, why don't you answer the qusetion related to your signature: O you who believe! Take not for Auliyâ' (protectors or helpers or friends) disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allâh a manifest proof against yourselves? (4:144) Who took the Americans Auliya (protectors or helpers or friends)? that's the base of arguement, don't manouver around the AHAAD Hadith which is very old debate and can't be solved in the Somaliaonline thread. Answer those questions and don't spoil our minds for MU@ATAZILA, JAHAMIYAH, ASHAAIRAH, QADARIYAH etc who are not the our present enemy. our present enemy is well known don't manouvere and let's face the reality. the above debate is the debate of thousand years ago when the muslims were their highest power and proseperity, today our countries were occupied and we're killing each other so, don't create new divisions and don't misguide us sxb. MU'TAZILAH, JAHAMIYAH etc were dead and new enemies were emerged so let's face them. I ask the truth seaker and others not to continue this thread since it's like ostrich hiding her head in the sand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Truth Seeker Posted June 23, 2004 If we agree on the definiton then we agree that ahad hadith throught the number of narrations may contain some doubt because not enough people have narrated it to remove doubt. How can you have doubt in your aqeedah? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Truth Seeker Posted June 23, 2004 As far as establishing matters of Aqidah is concerned, the majority of the scholars are of the view that Ahad may not be relied upon as the basis of belief (aqidah), for matters of belief must be founded in certainty. Therefore, issues that revolve between belief (iman) and disbelief (kufr) can not be proven by Ahad narrations (Fawatih al-Rahmut, 2/136). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted June 23, 2004 Innalhamdulillah.... Truth seeker you have fail to recognize my positions on Ahad Ahadith, Ahad hadith do not Contain doubts, rather one person can be truthworthy, corroborated by Imam Al Bukhari, In Chapter 9 of (Sahih Bukhari) he documented hadith reported by one single person and classified it as Sahih (Authentic). When a hadith is Sahih, hence it mean its from the prophet(saas)100%, without doubt, Futhermore in book of Imam As-Shafi’ee, called Ar-Risala(English), he states that a single person Narration, can be Sahih, The punishment of the Grave is reported by one person( Ahad Hadith) yet the punishment is part of the Muslim Creed (‘Aqeeda), Imaam Shafi'ee (d.204H), said: "Indeed the Punishment of the Grave is a true fact, the Resurrection is a true fact ..." {Manhaj ash-Shafi'ee, of al-Bayhaqi, 1/415.} Ever we can see that Imam Ash-Shafi-ee states that Punishment of the Grave is a true fact….. thus we can see that he took Ahad hadith Into Aqeeda….he didn’t say we have doubts about it, but rather it’s a TRUE FACT. PROVE: Imaam Ahmad (d. 241H): "we have belief in the Punishment of the Grave. {Refer to Usool us-Sunnah, no. 8 and Risalat us-Sunnah, p72. by Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal.}. Imaam at-Tahaawee (d.278H): "We have Eemaan ... in The Punishment of the Grave" {Aqeedah Tahaaweeyah, Imaam at-Tahawi, no. 79-80.}. In addition, there are countless others that I can bring in evidence of the issue at hand. I can quote from book after book, even to the extent of including actual chains of narrations; as I have them also!! So this shows without a shadow of a doubt that Aahaad Ahaadeeth were taken as part of our 'Aqeedah by the Salaf for without them we have no 'Aqeedah - except that of those who are under Allaah's punishment. Sufficient for us are our Salaf for explaining our religion !! You fail to comprehend my initial post, If we agree on the definiton then we agree that ahad hadith throught the number of narrations may contain some doubt because not enough people have narrated it to remove doubt. I dont agree!!! As far as establishing matters of Aqidah is concerned, the majority of the scholars are of the view that Ahad may not be relied upon as the basis of belief (aqidah), Which scholars….Care to name them with their fatawa (verdicts)!!!!!!! U just neglected rule number 2 !!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Truth Seeker Posted June 23, 2004 "Mutawaatir refers to a hadith whose narrators in each level of its chain of transmission are so numerous that it is not possible for all of them to have conspired in falsehood - whether intentionally or mistakenly. The aahaad is a hadith that does not meet the requirement for the mutawaatir hadith" Therefore the ahad hadith is insufficient narrators for the purpose of eliminating a 'possibility' of falsehood either deliberate or non deliberate. Do you agree, otherwise the definition you give is a contradiction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted June 23, 2004 Innalhamdulillah..... Disgree, just cause hadith is narrator by one person this does not mean its not Sahih, when we say it does not meet the requirement of Mutawahir Hadith...it simply implies that the chain of transmission are not numerous. you have to look at the isnad of the Hadith, and when its one person, we have to study the person who has narratored the Hadith, this comes back to the science of hadith...(im not a Muhadith) Sahih Bukhari collected Ahad Hadith. Its well know that Sahih BUkhari did away with all the hadith that contained doubts...There is not one Muhadith(scholar of hadith) in this planet who says Sahih Bukhari's collection contain doubful hadith...instead authentic ones...and also Imam Shafi'ee refuted your points....he clearly states you can have Ahad Hadith in 'Aqeeda Now, i need proves from scholar that we can not have Ahad hadith in Aqeeda..this is what the topic is about.... will you not back up your statements!!! if not we can move to the next topic!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rahima Posted June 24, 2004 Boys, i believe you are doing more damage than good. There are many users on these forums who will be very confused by what you guys are discussing. Yes i realise that this is a public forum, however you have a responsibility and hence should fulfill it. Please show more xikma. If however you all wish to discuss and debate this topic, then do so via e-mail- just a suggestion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Truth Seeker Posted June 24, 2004 Im not disputing that ahad hadith can be sahih, all i am asking for is your definiton of ahad hadith, you stated: "Mutawaatir refers to a hadith whose narrators in each level of its chain of transmission are so numerous that it is not possible for all of them to have conspired in falsehood - whether intentionally or mistakenly. The aahaad is a hadith that does not meet the requirement for the mutawaatir hadith" Therefore what i deduce from your definition is that ahad hadith: is insufficient narrators for the purpose of eliminating a 'possibility' of falsehood either deliberate or non deliberate. I ask do you agree, otherwise the definition you give is a contradiction. Im not talking about anything else at this point just merely the definition, not aqeedah, not sahihness. I tend to agree with Rahima's suggestion, however i will leave it to you to decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted June 24, 2004 Innalhamdulillah... Rahima My beloved sister, I complain about your observations, rather I feel, no… rather I know this discussion does more good then harm if any… Allow me to demonstrate…how many Users knew about Ahaad Hadith preceding this thread???? How many people knew the ‘Aqeeda of the Hizbu Tahreer prior to this???? Confuse where is the confusion??? Im backing up my statements with manifest prove…. Confusion is scares, atleast from my part; it’s educational, Your thoughts are appreciated! Truth Seeker! Akhil-karim you’re pinned against the wall!!!!! Therefore what i deduce from your definition is that ahad hadith: is insufficient narrators for the purpose of eliminating a 'possibility' of falsehood either deliberate or non deliberate. What you deduce???? What??? Since when was the religion of Islam left to the intellect of mere men? Shall we take your opinion over that of Imam Ash-Shafi’eee Or Sahih Bukhari, or Sahih Muslim, Or Imam Ahmed, Or the Companions(salaf)? Re: When we say it does not meet the requirement of Mutawahir Hadith...it simply implies that the chains of transmission are not numerous. But this does not negate the fact that its not Sahih, and when a hadith is found sahih, then its from the messenger of Allah (saas) 100% therefore its incumbent upon All of us to accept it and believe in it! U honestly believe a Sahih hadith can have doubts….well the majority of the Hadith reported in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim are Ahad hadith, Thus the majority of your Deen is in Doubts… how am I going to discuss politics with someone who’s faith is in question?!? Akhee please don’t waste my time, you keep going over the same thing, after I responded to them…. If u cant refute my points lets just move the kingdom ruling with Kufr!!! this is the last time im going to address the definition...its like beating on a dead horse!!! a salamu alaykum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nur Posted June 24, 2004 Assalamu Alaikum a raxmatullah wa barakaatuh All Nomads An advice for Nomads from an ignorant brother. The best Dawa one should support and engage is that of Prophet Muhammad SAWS, in its entirety, nothing added to it, nothing taken away, realistic, wise, addresses the questions of our times and heals our problems, a Dawa that unites Muslims, closes their gaps, and gets people get closer to their maker, a Dawa that shuns polemics and endless arguments that bear no fruit nor heal our wounds. The very usage of names that describe belonging to a particular school of thought like Salafia, Tahrir, Ikhwan, Tabligh, etc is a departure from the Sunnah itself, non of the salaf themselves ever used these names nor did Allah SWT authorized its use, because Abraham had named this Ummah Muslims, the action of some Muslims should not warrant a change of that great name, if anything had ever contributed to divisions among Muslims, it is names and sects that lift banners and rally around a controversial topic to compete for followers. No movement has monopoly on being right, being righteous is an individual effort deeply rooted in the individuals sincerity, while these groups stress on particular aspect of Islam, no one should use this difference of interpretation as the basis for split up, we have disected the ummah into many parts, this forum should not contribute to fomenting difference, it should seed trust and reproachment that is gained though respect of the others point of view, never making people prepackaged and prejudged because of their points of view that can change from day to day. If there is no difference that was raised, one should not intiate a thread begging for one, because, any confusion that is created in the course of a controversial topic like this, and any evil committed, awakenes a dormant fitnah, the writer gets his or her share of this ithm. For a change, there are many topics that majority of the audience would appreciate to read, like fiqh, Tawheed, ibaadaat, akhlaaq, social issues, current events, how to restore our brilliant past, etc. And while these topics are discussed, we should show maturity and accept that everyone has a point of view, but as long as everyone is committed to his deen, and Tawheed is adhered to, we should focus on building together and breathing life to a dead ummah, not dividing up the carcass any further. Nur Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted June 24, 2004 Innalhamdulillah... Nur Baarakallahu Feekum The very usage of names that describe belonging to a particular school of thought like Salafia, Tahrir, Ikhwan, Tabligh, etc is a departure from the Sunnah itself, non of the salaf themselves ever used these names nor did Allah SWT authorized its use, because Abraham had named this Ummah Muslims, the action of some Muslims should not warrant a change of that great name, if anything had ever contributed to divisions among Muslims, it is names and sects that lift banners and rally around a controversial topic to compete for followers. Shaykh al-Albaanee - Rahimullaah - said: "However, there are some who claim knowledge who deny this ascription, claiming that it has no foundation, saying: "It is not permissible for a Muslim to say: I am Salafi." And it is as if he is saying: "It is not permissible for me to say: l am following the Salafus-Saalih in what they were upon in 'aqeedah, worship and manners!" And there is no doubt that the likes of this denial - if that is what is meant - implies that he is disassociating himself from the correct Islaam that the Salafus-Saalih were upon ... Thus it is not permissible for a Muslim to disassociates himself from being ascribed to the Salafus-Saalih. If, however, he freed himself from any other nisbah ( ascription ), then none of the people of knowledge could accuse him of disbelief or sinfulness. However, the one who refuses calling himself with this name Salafi, then it should be seen, does he attribute himself to a particular madhhab - whether in matters of 'aqeedah or fiqh" So perhaps he will call himself an Ash'aree or a Maatareedee, or he may be from Ahlul-Hadeeth, or a Hanafee, Maalikee, Shaafi'ee or Hanbalee - from those matters which enter into the term Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. Despite that fact that the one who ascribes himself to the Ash'aree madhhab, or the four well-known madhhabs, then he has ascribed himself to those who are not protected from making mistakes as individuals - even though there are from them Scholars that attain what is correct. So why O why do they not reject the likes of these ascriptions to individuals who are not protected from mistakes? However, as for the one who ascribes himself to the Salafus-Saalih collectively - then he ascribes himself to that which is protected from mistakes." [Al-Asaalah Magazine 9/87] 2) Allaah Has Named us Muslims, So Why Ascribe Ourselves to the Salaf This doubt was very beatifully answered by Imaam al-Albaani in his discussion with someone on this subject, recorded on the cassette entitled, "I am Salafi", and here is a presentation of the vital parts of it: Shaikh al-Albaani: "When it is said to you, ‘What is your madhhab’, what is your reply?" Questioner: "A Muslim". Shaikh al-Albaani: "This is not sufficient!". Questioner: "Allaah has named us Muslims" and he recited the saying of Allaah Most High, "He is the one who has called you Muslims beforehand." (al-Hajj 22:78) Shaikh al-Albaani: "This would be a correct answer if we were in the very first times (of Islaam) before the sects had appeared and spread. But if we were to ask, now, any Muslim from any of these sects with which we differ on account of aqeedah, his answer would not be any different to this word. All of them – the Shi’ite Rafidi, the Khaariji, the Nusayri Alawi – would say, "I am a Muslim". Hence, this is not sufficient in these days." Questioner: "In that case I say, I am a Muslim upon the Book and the Sunnah." Shaikh al-Albaani: "This is not sufficient either". Questioner: "Why?" Shaikh al-Albaani: "Do you find any of those whom we have just mentioned by way of example saying, ‘I am a Muslim who is not upon the Book and the Sunnah’?" Who is the one who says, ‘I am not upon the Book and the Sunnah’?" At this point the Shaikh then began to explain in detail the importance of being upon the Book and the Sunnah in light of the understanding of the Salaf us-Saalih… Questioner: "In that case I am a Muslim upon the Book and the Sunnah with the understanding of the Salaf us-Saalih". Shaikh al-Albaani: "When a person asks you about your madhhab, is this what you will say to him?" Questioner: "Yes". Shaikh al-Albaani: "What is your view that we shorten this phrase in the language, since the best words are those that are few but indicated the desired intent, so we say, ‘Salafi’?" End of quotation. Hence, the point is that naming with "Muslim" or "Sunni" is not enough, since everyone will claim that. And Imaam al-Albaani emphasised the importance of the truth being distinguished from the falsehood – from the point of view of the basis of manhaj and aqidah, and that is taking from the Salaf us-Saalih, as opposed to the various sects and groups whose understandings are based upon those of their mentors and leaders and not that of the Salaf, fundamentally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Truth Seeker Posted June 24, 2004 You refuse to acknowledge the contradiction in your definition. Can you give a definition of Ahad hadith like that you have given for Mutawatir, Jazakallah Khair. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted June 25, 2004 Innalhamdulillah... I Withdraw from the discussion....for violating rule #5 and #2 Wa salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa baarakatu Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
