Accepting Israel!

[Truth Seeker]

Everyone preaches about unity but never gives a step by step process (derived from Islam) of achieivng this. I dont see how you can say the method of Hizb ut Tahrir is confused (when i have given an overview) when you cannot give a counter argument or one from what the "MOsques" have have so called been pushing for years? what is confused about the method, explain!

 

Im getting confused as to your points on one hand your saying we need to call for unity then you are saying khilafah is unity, you need to make your position clear. I apologise if i have misunderstood you.

 

The reality is that the Khilfah will be established in one place and will then encompass all the muslim lands - a good example would be Salahuddin Ayubi, he achieved the same, took authority and then one by one retook controol of the muslim lands.

 

I am encouraged by this discussion because this is what the vital issue for the Muslims is, however if we want to achieve something from this if we can stick just one point at a time , that we can address and then move on from their. This will allow us to take more from this discussion.

[NGONGE]

Everyone preaches about unity but never gives a step by step process (derived from Islam) of achieivng this. I dont see how you can say the method of Hizb ut Tahrir is confused (when i have given an overview) when you cannot give a counter argument or one from what the "MOsques" have have so called been pushing for years? what is confused about the method, explain!

 

Im getting confused as to your points on one hand your saying we need to call for unity then you are saying khilafah is unity, you need to make your position clear. I apologise if i have misunderstood you.

I’m saying it’s confused because it argues that once the Khilafa is in place, all the problems of the Muslims will disappear! The whole concept of Khilafa centres on the fact that the people “elect†a Khalifa. Otherwise, what stops you and me from wishing for a Muslim Sultan or king? In order to have a Khilafa we need to have a Muslim Ummah that is agreed and is working towards establishing such an entity. In order to have a Muslim Ummah that believes in this we need to work towards creating the conditions that will finally lead us to this goal. Where I think Hezb Et Tahrir gets confused is in their total emphasis on the West and western politics, troubles and shortcomings. None of the aforementioned things relates to the concept of Khilafa in anyway. Even the most ignorant of Muslims knows about these deficiencies of the western world, so why focus your energies on that?

 

The reality is that the Khilfah will be established in one place and will then encompass all the muslim lands - a good example would be Salahuddin Ayubi, he achieved the same, took authority and then one by one retook controol of the muslim lands.

Although I can’t recall him being a Khalifa as such (I might be wrong), in his days, he was more powerful than most other surrounding Muslim fiefdoms and scattered kingdoms. Right now, we have our own little dotted nations and we also have the West interfering in our affairs. The Khilafah being established in one place and then encompassing all the other Muslim lands will only take place if we work towards making these other lands more receptive to the concept. Like I said, the divisions of race, tribal affiliations and even religious sectarianism have always been there and still remain. Eradicate that; create the conditions for one Islamic nation and the Khilafa will be the logical natural progression. It does not work the other way round though.

[Baashi]

NGONGE,

You have a point, saaxiib. I can see things from both your and Truthseeker's prespectives. This issue has many different angles that one can weigh in...! I think West is a force to reckon with. Through security council, sanction measures, IAEA, WTP, World Bank/IMF, and other venues, they excert control on the rest of the world.

 

It so happened, by a mere chance, that most of energy reserves are under Islamic soils. Oil is essential to West's industrial infrastructure to function. It follows that West has a compelling interest to see the flow of oil uninterrupted.

 

Establishment of Islamic, or even responsible democratic government in the rich oil countries that undesrtand what the oil leverage at their disposal can accomplish, or any other shrewd government that wants to diversify its economy, build technological base, invest its people, and rely on its own defence without taking any orders from anyone else will not be welcomed by the powers that exist today. I bet they will label them a rogue nation and it will be considered as a threat, the conventional wisdom goes, to their national security. Therefore, any movement that dares to create the conditions that you alluded to will hear from uncle Sam. No?

 

My POINT is that west is a factor. I want us to do all the things you have outlined in your last paragraph but I'm not sure how! In fact I have no clue and as far as I'm concerned the Khalifa is Utopia that I fall in love with. Untill that day comes let's be at it - anger n cries that is!

 

It is catch 22! It is dog eats dog world.

[NGONGE]

Baashi, between the late 1800 to the middle of the 1900 most Muslim lands were ruled by French, British, Italians and even Belgians! Each nation had it’s own people to fight back and seek independence. We had our very own “Mad Mullahâ€, the North Africans had Omer Al Mukhtar, the Pakistanis had Jinnah, etc, etc..

 

All these wars caused the colonialists a logistical nightmare. They had to leave and install their puppet rulers (they were not always puppet rulers – Qaddafi was one of those that fought to liberate Libya for instance). The amazing thing about this was not the fighting though. It was the widespread intellectual discussion. The uniform agreement in every land that they want to get rid of the occupiers and control their own destinies! Once those discussions took place, heroic leaders emerged and fought to free their lands. We don’t have that now. Our discussions are stale. We reminisce about history (as I’m doing now). We blame the West for everything. The West might be able to control our actions but they can’t control our thoughts. We need to stop being victims and openly discuss ways to reform our societies. If it’s going to be Islamic and khilafa, so be it! If it’s going to be nationalistic, why not? Anything is better than the wilderness we reside in right now.

[Baashi]

NGONGE, we are on the same page then. FYI, the discussion has started...here..............in SOL

[Truth Seeker]

I did not say that all the problems of the muslims would disappear rather what I said was that the solution to the problems is the Khilfah because it is his duty to protect and provide for the people.

 

Creating the Public opinion ofr Islam is the work of the party – until we have this opinion we cannot have khilafh.

 

We highlight the attacks from the West because it is fact – we attack our leaders because they aid this attack and subjugation. Thisis the reality, this is what America and the like do. Unless we know this clearly i.e. we don’t go to them for our solutions such as the two state solution for Palestine the Ummah will be fooled, we show that Islam should solve all these problems so call for Islam, not the UN to intervene etc…

 

If Pakistan was to becoame the Khilafha you would have a domino affect with all the other Muslim countries falling into line, all through the state using its resources to show the Ummah that they need to unite behind it.

 

I think you will find that the West does control our thoughts when you find that much of the Muslim world calls for democracy, and runs to every solution it offers, without even thinking of their own never mind refereeing back to islam.