The SNM was beaten

[me]

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

I was basically highlighting the point you made about the SNM commiting treason, in which my response was,the SNM already had an enemy,the fascist regime of Barre, therefore treason or otherwise, the Barre regime wouldn't have done them a favor neither,because they were in conflict.

So you are saying the SNM was fighting Siyaad Barre and therefore they were allowed to use any means possible including collaborating with the Somali enemy in a time of war. However this line of thinking highlights the SNM’s low regard for the Somali people’s interest. It was not Siyaad Barre that was at war with Ethiopia, but SOMALIA. So by collaborating with an external enemy whose aim was to keep the occupied Somali territories and even annex additional Somali territories shows us the SNM didn’t respect the wishes of the Somali people.

 

It is very much understandable how the men and woman of Kismayo, Gaalkacyo, Barawe reacted to the collaboration of the SNM with the enemy of Somalia in a time of war. People all over Somalia saw the actions of SNM as subversive and treasonous.

 

The SNM did not make any friends with its collaborationist agenda. Siyaad Barre was right in his countering of SNM aggression. He was the head of the state and it was his job to protect the nation against all enemies internal as well as external. Any leader in his position will make the same decision he made, maybe a different tactic but the same principle.

 

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

The fact that you have stated history in North starts in 1988 war is a proof that you have alot of catching up to do.

I don’t think you expect us to discuss the full history of the region. I made a conscious decision to focus on the events of May 1988, the reason for this is because the moment the SNM moved into the cities with just 1500 men they crossed the final line and there was no turning back for North Western Somalia.

 

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

To oodweyen, sxb.if Mr. Me asked for it, why not,I must go ahead and give the kid an early birthday present, just in time to say Ciid Mubarak.

Of course in a true ‘Islamic’ way Mr. Red Sea . So I asked for al the name-calling and death treats by raising issues that concern us all? That shows us allot Mr. Red Sea, your Jackyl & Hyde, your double facedness tells us enough.

 

All this name-calling and death treats show the dear SOL public one thing and that’s what all ya’ll folks is claiming is built on lies. Re-writing history will not save certain sections of the Somali Nation. We are all present here today and we are all taking notes. The declassified documents of the British Government will be a goldmine for Somali historians that want to know more about the subject. History will certainly be a cruel judge.

[Jaylaani]

SNM legacy is the only thing standing today post SIYAD BARE regime.

 

CASE CLOSED

 

 

DAMBIGA FARAHA BADAN IYO CUQDAD YUURARTA HA LASKA DAAYOO WAA RAMADAAN OO WALA SOOMAN YAHAY.

[RedSea]

Originally posted by me:

So you are saying the

SNM

was fighting Siyaad Barre and therefore they were allowed to use any means possible including

collaborating

with the Somali

enemy

in a time of war.

Before, you ask, ask yourself,since you have demanded us to think critically, and please spare us all, the ill excuse of the Somali people this and Somali people that.At that point in time, the real enemy of the Somali people were Barre and his fascist regime.So as long as you are denying this, then I will keep on saying YES, the SNM had every bit of right to go every way to get rid of teh fascist and kaliskii taliskii Siyad Barre.But the day you admit that Barre despite his glorious first few years in which he succeed while accompanied by the strenghth of all Somali people, the day you admit that he anytime after that was the root cause of the miseries and suffering that still exist today in some parts, when you do that,I will be happy to engage wtih you on whether SNM was right or wrong in acquiring base and weaponary from Ethiopia.

 

However this line of thinking highlights the SNM’s low regard for the Somali people’s interest. It was not Siyaad Barre that was at war with Ethiopia, but SOMALIA. So by collaborating with an external enemy whose aim was to keep the occupied Somali territories and even

annex

additional Somali territories shows us the SNM didn’t respect the wishes of the Somali people.

Yet another weak point, which I can dismantle with ease.

 

First, if you don't mind looking at the heroes of Goday, Harer,Jigjiga, the pilots that were never seen again which were shot down right out of the sky above the territories you just mentioned, significant numbers of them happened to be from Hargeysa and Burco during the struggle to liberate the terrirotries in which you have mentioned.Did they not fight with loyalty and pride? weren't their interest lying to free the Zone five region, I think you will agree, well then consider this,most of those officers that participated in that war, were later the leaders of the SNM which felt neglected by their own government and betrayed by the people whom they shed their blood in freeing them so they defacted into army struggle in order to free the people from oppression.

 

As I had pointed out previously, the refugees that fled the '77 war were armed and told to kill the people who had them as guests, doesn't that qualify a very low regard and rather terrible way to thank the people who sheltered you in time when their homes weren't safe? I think it's only a fair to give that a thought.

 

You talk about an external enemy, the fascist regime of Barre were the enemy of the state, they were responsible in distroying and creating the rift, clan against against clan, and amonsity that still exists today,the SNM didn't even have that much influence over all regions,it was indeed the fascist government of Siyad Barre that destroyed and watered the blooming flower with a toxic splash of acid.

 

 

It is very much understandable how the men and woman of Kismayo, Gaalkacyo, Barawe reacted to the

collaboration

of the

SNM

with the

enemy

of Somalia in a time of war. People all over Somalia saw the actions of SNM as

subversive

and

treasonous

.

I don't think I heard about this,but how did they react to the ruthless killings, in the Jaziira Beach, how did they react to inhumane acts commited by Barre forces in Mudug plains, how did they react to any of the continous pursuit of human suffering caused by the regime.Oh I forgot, they couldn't have reacted,because it was Aabo Siyad staring at them, no finger for justice could have risen up, as the Muqdisho studium crowd found out the hard way later on, when the large crowd didn't applaud for "aabihii" kacaanka, gues what they got in return, blazing fire of lead into their lungs, will you also justify this Mr.ME, or you will say,hmm, the USC was messing things around in Xamar as well, will you my friend?

 

 

The SNM did not make any friends with its collaborationist agenda. Siyaad Barre was right in his countering of

SNM

aggression

. He was the head of the state and it was his job to protect the nation against all

enemies

internal

as well as

external

. Any leader in his position will make the same decision he made, maybe a different tactic but the same principle.

So, by means of destroying,raping, and killing innocent people, it was the right way to counter those who were threating "the people".What people? the people you are claiming Barre was defending considered him a cold blooded killer, so that has to tell you where that much energy of "defending" the state from internal enemy,offccourse the people themselves were seen as enemy.

 

Furthermore, let me just get out of my shoes and step into yours for second.Let us just say, the SNM did make wrongful calculations in Hargeysa and Burco.But then wait, how bout when people fled to Naaso Hablood mountains outside of Hargeysa, they, the SNA or the facist leaders knew the civilians camps were relocated there, so did they say, well civilians are based there so let us make sure they face no harm, absulately not, they went after them and kept killing more and more, well that was their aim to begin with and again 'reer aan rabay roob ma igu eryay' ayaa ka dhacday meesha.

 

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

The fact that you have stated history in North starts in 1988 war is a proof that you have alot of catching up to do.

I don’t think you expect us to discuss the full history of the region. I made a conscious decision to focus on the events of May 1988, the reason for this is because the moment the SNM moved into the cities with just 1500 men they crossed the final line and there was no turning back for North Western Somalia.

You are right to certain degree here, and sure I will debate with you upon the date you have selected, but I am sure it makes no difference, the truth is the truth, it has no flip side to it.

 

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

To oodweyen, sxb.if Mr. Me asked for it, why not,I must go ahead and give the kid an early birthday present, just in time to say Ciid Mubarak.

Of course in a true ‘Islamic’ way Mr. Red Sea

. So I asked for al the name-calling and death treats by raising issues that concern us all? That shows us allot Mr. Red Sea, your Jackyl & Hyde, your

double facedness

tells us enough.

Saaxib,that was direct statement, maybe you got over heated a bit, so read what I said again one more time.I don't think I justified or I had anything to add to what happened between you and Oodweyne,simply mr.Oodweyne suggested that you deserve no reply,so my answer was why not I make you earn your way up, if you have to post such idiotic topic, which quite honestly considering your points,deserves none.That was all, whether I am two faced and what not isn't of your concern at the moment,but your main concern should be how you would dig your way out of this pot hole, which seems to be deepening. You seem to be losing any key points, if there were hardly any to begin with. You accused the SNM of miscalculations,you have also made some bad miscalculations in this thread by forgetting that this took place only 17 years ago.Sure maybe both you and I were kids back then,but diffinately not long enough to not have eye witness, vidoe documantaries in full color which captured things in first hand.

 

All this

name-calling

and

death treats

show the dear SOL public one thing and that’s what all ya’ll folks is claiming is built on

lies

. Re-writing history will not save certain sections of the Somali Nation. We are all present here today and we are all taking notes. The declassified documents of the British Government will be a goldmine for Somali historians that want to know more about the subject. History will certainly be a cruel judge.

History doenst need to be rewritten,and definately not so recent one, this one hardly requires to be penned down,it's right in front of us it's plain clear and simple.But I dont' know why you are crying certain group of people,anyone has the right to choose their destiny, pick and choose yours, and know that everyone has the same right as you wish to have.

 

As pointed out to you today, what was under SNA military is no longer there,Barre is no longer there(died, will be judged by the Lord,let us leave it at that).So the present is what counts, although you don't have any key points proofing your claim,however,teh present is the most important thing.What the present is something I won't waste my time on,hence you migth already know how things are going.

[me]

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

First, if you don't mind looking at the heroes of Goday, Harer,Jigjiga, the pilots that were never seen again which were shot down right out of the sky above the territories you just mentioned, significant numbers of them happened to be from Hargeysa and Burco during the struggle to liberate the terrirotries in which you have mentioned.Did they not fight with loyalty and pride? wer

Ok please tell me what the link is that you are trying to prove here between the SNM and the SNA members from Hargeysa and Burco?

 

The SNA members from Hargeysa and Burco that fought gallantly for their nation have always been recognized and honoured by their nation and will forever be honoured by a grateful nation. Do not besmear the honour of those men by levelling them with the collaborationist rebels of the SNM. The only thing that those soldiers of the SNA and the SNM had in common was their towns and maybe a clan, but politically they were as far apart as any two groups can be.

 

The SNA members were Pan-Somalist, while the SNM members were secessionist

The SNA members were Somali Nationalists, while the SNM were collaborationists

The SNA members gave their lives for their nation, while the SNM was working with the same enemy that killed the SNA soldiers.

The SNA soldiers where hero’s of the Somali Nation, while the SNM were the traitors of the Somali Nation

 

So I ask you Mr. Red Sea how can you put those two groups of men in the same category? Are you claiming that because of only ‘clan’ affiliation they have the same political motives and objectives?

 

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

Saaxib,that was direct statement, maybe you got over heated a bit, so read what I said again one more time.I don't think I justified or I had anything to add to what happened between you and Oodweyne,simply mr.Oodweyne suggested that you deserve no reply,so my answer was why not I make you earn your way up, if you have to post such idiotic topic, which quite honestly considering your points,deserves none.

Have you read what Mr. Oodweyne wrote or is this your hypocrisy at work again?

 

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

As pointed out to you today, what was under SNA military is no longer there,Barre is no longer there(died, will be judged by the Lord,let us leave it at that).

Just because the SNA is gone and Siyaad Barre is dead doesn’t mean that some people have the right to lie constantly about history. This is Somali history and it should be objectively written and judged.

 

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

You seem to be losing any key points, if there were hardly any to begin with. You accused the SNM of miscalculations,you have also made some bad miscalculations in this thread by forgetting that this took place only 17 years ago.

Ok so things that happened 17 years ago can not be discussed? Even if they play a major part in what’s happening today?

 

The three original points that I have raised have not been refuted by any arguments and they still stand. After 5 pages and countless replies still no one has refuted these 3 points. Maybe some people here on SOL should concentrate their energy in looking into these points rather than childish personal attacks.

 

1. The SNM betrayed the Somali Nation and the Somali people by collaborating with the enemy of Somalia.

 

2. The SNM sacrificed and made the people of Hargeysa and Burco suffer for their own selfish gains.

 

3. The SNM was beaten by the Somali National army and this can be proven by the fact that the day that Mogadisho fell to the USC not one single village was in SNM hands.

[RedSea]

^oh lord,it looks like we are back to square one again.Listen,in your own mindset, those SNM members were the real criminals while the SNA which later consisted of war refugess who commited inhumane acts were the real heroes, I say nice going buddy, bravo, you have proved a point there.

 

Secondly,I am still unable to understand what exactly you mean by your three supposed that you have crippled above,but let me see if I can repeat myself.

 

According to you:

 

1.The SNM betrayed the somali nation and people by collabrating with the enemy of Somalia?

 

 

The real enemy of the Somalis was the cold blooded killer and his regime dhiigyacabkii Siyad Barre.But the most important point you are missing time and again, is who were the SNM? accordign to you they were their form of body which opperated itself and were out to take over any sort of government that was existing. But in reality, the SNM was the people who rose up against the oppression of the Barre regime.Get that point straight.If there was an enemy, it's Siyad Barre and his geeljire SNA soldiers that later come to be, after the real SNA defacted into the SNM and other factional movements.

 

You seem to be overlooking the real problem which is the act of brutality by the barre regime against its own people, it wasn't the SNM but rather the fascist regime that betrayed the Somali people by letting them down in every aspect of their lives including politically,economically,and socially.

 

 

2.The SNM sacrificed and made the people of Hargeysa and Burco suffer for their own selfish gains:

 

once again, what people of Hargeysa and Burco are you talking about? the people of Hargeysa and Burco of which I am a member of mostly hold the same view which was that the Barre regime had to go,regardless of what the SNM has to do to accomplish such feat, it wouldn't never had prevented the geeljire/refugees turned SNA from killing people,thus not in Hargeysa,Burco,but also it happened in the South,namely the example which I have given to you.Does that also has link to the SNM? if it wasn't mass excutions of certain qabiils.I still await a clear answer from you on this points,dont' ignore the facts.As well, as other killings including the ones that took place in Mudug,Muqdisho Stadium etc.YOUR INSIGHT IS NEEDED ON THIS.

 

3.The SNM was Beaten?

 

if you were to ask anyone who has any sort of military background of what tactics they would use when vastly outnumbered,outgunned,they would tell you the gorilla war tactics.However, there are noticeably two different phases of Gorrila war,one being hit and run,the other simply attack,gather any weaponary and leave the scene before reinforcements come. The SNM used the first tactic of hit and run within Hargeysa and thus assisinated alot of high ranking SNA members.Later however, the SNM used the tactics of attack,strike hard and gather all weapons,fuel, possible, which they suceed in both phases.From 1988-1990, the SNM was very successful in making sure they had killed and dealt heavy loses in both economically and in severing the man power of the SNA,which was continuously was getting reinforcements from Xamar via innocent sheep herders being drafted, given quick hair cut with broken bottles then shipped to the North, present day Somaliland to fight the ever growing strength of the SNM. Some of these forced soldiers, simply gave in,since they had no idea of what they were up against and for what they were fighting for.It wasn't because of their country,it wasn't because of national pride and in defensive of the nation that Barre was doing all these, it was for him to maintain his throne.

 

The SNM couldn't match in no way of the continous support that geeljire/refugee composed later SNA were getting from teh south, nor could they match them economically, so it was the best tactical move to make sure they didnt' engage the SNA in a battle without making sure they would have the upper hand in that particular battle.They had no fix location, hence they weren't that ****** to stay in one place vurnuable of airial bombardment.Many planes were left on the airport, unmanned, due to shortage of flyers who would fly the jets,however some airial threat did exist.

 

The tactic which was to be on the offensive and to keep the SNA on its heels proved to be very successful, they were able to weaken the SNA's previous strenghth,and only thing that was missing was iskaba raacin which was accomplished by the USC forces in Xamar.The SNA still after the capture of Xamar by the USC in early 1991 try to put some last fight for Hargeysa, Berbera and Burco,but they were swiftly defeated with relative ease.

 

Lastly, as I said, I have no bussiness in seeing or commenting what Oodweyne had said to you other than say Adkayso sida raga, oo hanaqon sidii hashii intay geela hor qaniinto hadana cabaada hadhow iyadu.Markaa aniga ha'igu soo duwin hadii meel hadalkii oodweyne kaa taabtay, adaa afka lagalay oo copy yey habkii uu wax uqori jiraye.Igadaa calalka dee inadeer, meelaha ku baroor tiiqso fadlan, hypocritic iyo waxan ahay ka bax, topic ayaan ka hadlaynaa ee ka hadal topic kaad bilowday adigu fadlan.Simple as that.

[Captain Xalane]

Originally posted by Oodweyne:

Waryaa ****** waxa Aad Yeeleysaa, SNM, waa tii Eryatay Huwantii aad ****** jirteen; waa tii Maanta, Ka Markhaati ah, in adiga iyo ku wii shaley hadhka cad la eryaday, inay calaacal dibada la taagan yihiin,...

 

Car hadaaad nin tahay, Ka soo Jawaab, Waxa aad maanta tahay; Car Hadaad nin tahay, ka soo jawaab, waxa aad maanta aad

Hargeisa iyo

Somaliland

aad ka tahay,....

 

Waxaan kuu sheegayaa *********, adoo kale dooxii

hargeisa

ayaan kugu soo aaasi lahaa, adoo nool; oo waliba cidna ikaa weydiiseen, ina-gumeed yahow, wakaa qiimahaagu,...

 

Waxaa kaa cabaadinaya haybtii-garan waayahow, waaa taa weeye,...waad og-tahay, in aanad ku noqon karin, halkii aad ku-dhalatay ee

Hargeisa

ahayd iyo

Somaliland

; ileyn ina-gumeed huwantii Afweyne's kabaha u qaadayey ayaad tahaye; Oo og in aanu waxba kulahayn, Somaliland iyo umadeeda maanta jirta; taa weeye, ta kaa cabaadinaysa; ee halkan cayda SNM aad dadka ka iibineysaa,....

 

Waxaad yeeleysaa, ************* orod oo ku biir hadhaagii huwantii Afweyne, ee qurbaha ka calaacala,...

 

****** yohow, waanad ogayn halka aad taagan tahay; sababtoo oh, ana waa Igu Qaran an gacan tayda ku yagleelay, oo

Somaliland

layidhaahdo; Adna waa kugu ******* iyo calaacalkiisii; oo aad qurbaha ka soo daldasho, sidii huwantii afweyne, ee hadhka cad la eryaday...

 

Nabadeey, ********* halkaa hanoo joogto...

_______________

 

This repetitive aflagaado is absolutely unacceptable. Do not force us to delete whole posts.

Empty vessels make most noise.U just disgraced whatever it was that u were advocating and after all,let alone the defeat of the snm ,ur response and irrationality of approach regarding this issue,is itself a defeat on ur side as an individual.So what is there to argue about?Ur defeat maybe?

[RedSea]

^Got something, make an argument, prove your point,tell me and explain how they the SNM were defeated, that is the topic of the thread. Oodweyne and his comments are his,but what do YOU got to say, LT?

 

 

MR. Me had an argument,what is yours?

If you got nothing to say, just move along buddy.

[me]

Badacase in the thread titled Puntland laugh of secessionist claims. You said....check below

 

Originally posted by Mj. bada Cas:

mr. me, you know I had the last word in that discussion. I gave you all the answers, you ran out of questions I think.

And as we can see in this thread....your last words were?

 

Originally posted by Mj. bada Cas:

MR. Me had an argument

So I rest my case.

[Lake]

Originally posted by Caamir:

and all were supported by Ethiopia--determined to destroy Somalia.

 

Caamir isn't it the same case of the TFG? Just wondering..speak on it.

[me]

Badacase why are you ignoring me on this thread? Nin rag ah been ma sheego, marka uu khalad galanaa wuu qirtaa, marka qiro badacase in aad khalad gashay ama been sheegtay.

[Gabbal]

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

the SNM was using the weapons they had captured from the SNA with the exception of few provided to them by Ethiopia.Which brings me to point out that the SNM was in Ethiopia under its own interest and EThiopia was also benefiting from them,it was we both win type of scenerio

Maantana waa Mujaahid Badda Cas.

[Gabbal]

Me, according to that State Department document you brought the place Conoco was most obsessed with and had concessions in was Las Anod eh?

[me]

lol... well mujaahid oo no mujaahid, sheekadaasu meesha ay u socoto iyo meesha ay ka socoto waa la ogyahay.

 

Ta labaad ee conoco, well conoco Las cannod iska daaye, Soomaaliya ayee iska leedahay. Soomaaliya oo dhan ayaa geed ugu xidhan.

 

marka dadka reer Laas Caanood dadka soomaaliyeed ayee dhibaato iyo wanaagba la qabaan.

[me]

Horn, I have posted most of these documents on Somalia online I think and they showed allot of things.

 

Like generals, PM, ministers from the Somali government oo soo siyaareenaya the US embassy and giving them intelligence, assuraces and making things easier for them.

 

Allot of somali government officials were in the pockets of these guys, its a sad thing.

[Gabbal]

Gartay but still my pointing that out is quite relevant. I have heard "Somalilanders" on more then one occasion say they are capable of going it alone because they have oil. I just did not know that it would be true only if Las Anod was in the equation.

 

As for your piece, I must say you handled yourself quite nobly. Your demeanor that is, especially in the face of the crude obscenities Oodweyne hurled in one particularly disgusting post.