Just Brother Biixi and I

[Nur]

Biixi Brother

 

I kindly ask you to prove that I have said that the ICU is a PRODUCT, I repeat , A PRODUCT, of USC.

 

You quote me as wroting : 1.ICU is product of USC.

 

Your agreement from previous writings

 

“ there is no doubt that the present formation of the Islamic courts includes recycled old guards from the USC, just like their opponenents (TFG) have within their ranks “

 

 

Brother, the word "INCLUDES" Does not Mean " PRODUCT"

 

The Wesbsters Dictionary defines:

 

1. PRODUCT, Produce as: to cause to have existence or to happen : bring about.

 

2. INCLUDE: include suggests the containment of something as a constituent, component, or subordinate part of a larger whole

 

 

So, when I said that some recycled old guard INCLUDE, I meant they have JOINED and EXISTING ORGANIZATION THAT WAS ESTABLISHED BY GOOD PEOPLE WITH NO BAD PAST HISTORY IN THE CIVIL WAR.

 

Your logic is like saying: If a Munafiq INCLUDES the Government of the Prophet Mohammad SAWS in Madina, That the Islamic Government is a FACTOR of Munafiqs! ( By the way I am in no way claiming that the Courts are like the Governmnet of the Rasuul, but they have declared openly they follow the Prophet's Sunnah and Sharia)

 

My brother, When the Islamic Courts were originated by Tribal Sheikhs ( Each tribe has Waranle and Wadaad), The Waranlayaal has lead Somalia to misery for 16 years, both the former SSDF and USC Anarchists were later discovered that they had the same boss, ETHIOPIA, which has used them both to dismantle Somalia to its present state.

 

So, The Wadaads in each tribe turned the table on the Anarchits, and the ICU was born, not from Anarchists, as you have claimed, but from pure Wadaads like Sheikh Shareef. Once they have beaten all the anarchists, Ethiopia and America came to their rescue and installed them back to maintain the slavery of Ethiopia. Stragely you suggest that we should work for the stooge Ethiopian Installed government?

 

 

Brother Bixi

 

Sorry if I have said something that does NOT befit you, you are dear to me, and your happiness in this life and the next is the reason I am debating you at this forum, it beats my purpose to insult you, what I meant by current logic, can be answered by my following question:

 

Brother, Are you suggesting that if a warlord accepts to follow Islam and abide by Sharia, under leadership of Ulima scholars , that the organization he joins ( ICU) is permanently as bad as an organization that is LED by His former Criminal Warlord friends (TFG)?

 

 

Brother, Alhamdulillah, that you hold Islam very high, so do I, what needs to be done is for us to unify our stand regarding the political establishment that is c reated to destry Islam as a viable political governance in a country where the people staunchly declare that they are Muslims.

 

 

If we agree on the following statments:

 

1. Allah, represented by Quran Is the ONLY and ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGN, by virtue of creation of the universe and everything in it including people, He is above all, thus any law, agreement, settlement that conflicts with Allah's teachings are absolutely and eternally ILLEGAL.

 

2. Allah is the ONLY Ally for us whose protection we should seek, any Somali who seeks other than Allah as protector, specially, from those who are against Islam, has declared war on Islam, and proves his departure away from Islam.

 

3. Allah is the only RIGHTFUL LAW MAKER and LAW GIVER to His creatures, any organization in Somalia that makes laws contradictory to those of Allah are in Contempt of Allah, the Soveregin, thus, by this action of blatant disrespect of Allah rule over their lives, they have chosen to be non Muslims.

 

 

Then, what follows is to evaluate present political formation in Somalia in light of Islam, not the converse, because the more you understand what the present political tribal fromation is doing in the fovor of Ethiopians, the clearer the picture of what type of laws they want to implement:

 

1. ( Pursuit of Happiness)Legalize Alcohol and Qat

2. ( Womens Liberation) Legalize Prostitution and Adultry

3. ( Tolerance) Remove Islamic Studies from Curriculum.

4. ( Fighting Fundementalism) Shut Quranic Dugis.

 

 

Nur

[Biixi]

You just took us back to the beginning, and I don't feel like repeating it all over again.

[Nur]

Brother Bixi

 

The beginning you claimed that the ICU and the TFG are the same!

 

Meaning, both groups are criminals, no one group is better than the other, both are warlords with the same bloddy history?

 

Reason I have taken you back is to show you that what you claimed that I have said was not true. And I have even resorted to Dictionary to prove it.

 

If our discussion is not going to address the beginning claims you made, where do you suggest the discussion should address saaxib?

 

 

Nur

[Biixi]

Brother Nur

 

 

“You just took us back to the beginning, and I don't feel like repeating it all over again.” I was talking about the beginning of this dedication, not just the last thing I wrote.

 

Everything I’ve against the ICU is in my writings, so far I’ve not seen a reason to change my views about them. I was hopping that I would learn something new about the ICU but I didn't.

 

Thank you for dedicating this discussion to me. Our discussion should end here.

 

I may disagree with you on this, but know that I've the utmost respect for you.

 

Wabilaahi tawfiiq

[Nur]

Brother Bixi

 

I have been busy with other threads, Just opened this thread, I am really disappointed that it ended because I have enjoyed evey bit of it. Anyway, respect goes both ways, but, I go farther brother, I pray we meet in Jannah, if we cant meet here, our devotion to Allah alone is more than enouh to overcome our difference in views

 

Nur.

[Khalaf]

With all due respect to both of u brothers, this was one wasted effort if u ask me. The point of discussion is to reach an agreeable conclusion and come to a middle ground....but when both sides are happy with their little constrianted place unwilling to see think outside their little box then what is the point?......Bixi seems to dismiss the ICU as USC (read devils)....and Nur is unable to come to terms that not every somali sees the ICU as he does.

[Fabregas]

I think Nur admitted that the I.C.U did include some old members of the U.S.C. However, I believe that brother Bixii wants him to go a step further and say that the I.C.U was nothing other than the U.S.C in religous garb. Nur admitted that the I.C.U contained some warlords...but brother Bixii wants him to a step further and say they are no different from the warlords who formed the so called Anti Terror alliance. The I.C.U included remanants of U.S.C, Alitixaad and various other Islamist groups and also warlords. This is a well known fact. To say that Hassan Dahir Aweys, Turki and Ceyrow are nothing but U.S.C sounds like one is trying to rewrite history, because these militias hard their own militias and they never took part in the clan wars! Their goals was to fight Ethiopians, Seculars and attempt tp establish an Islamic state...this is very different from the U.S.C goals, which incidentally some it's members included members of the T.F.G and warlords!

[Abu-Salman]

Brother Biixi good manners and brother Nur' efforts to present an undistorted view of the ICU to our proud, prejudicied Nomads were very welcome and one could hardly doubt about his sincerity in this debate, all too recurrent among Somalis (who expect Ali And Umar RA khalifate out of a clannish, immoral Somali nation when it comes to Islamic leaders and abruptly lower standards for secular, illiterate, tribal warlord traitors).

 

Obviously, faced with so many challenges and enemies, our good Sheikhs Dahir Aweys and Ahmed could hardly be blamed for including remnants of the USC into their forces and leadership, as long as they shared with us the goal to salvate our Nation through Shariah (did Indhacade protest against Islamic law? Was he instead advocating for the Common law? No.).

 

Having fighted througout his life against our historical arch-enemy and its genocidal record (decorated during the liberation struggle of the70's) as well as for implementing a united Islamic Somalia, Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys could be blamed for many mistakes but certainely not for harboring the narrow tribal ideology that characterized the USC, SNM or the first Ethiopian-supported SSDF that started Somali civil war out of tribal passions and lust for power.

 

The bottom line: either you are a self-coherent Muslim that struggle for Islam to prevail through Shariah implementation, by including every Muslim (no matter his past deeds as long as he repented) while airing constructive criticism, only from Shariah perspective (not Western one), or you are merely trying to legitimize more or less subtly held tribal vindictness (albeit no one ever denied USC atrocities, not less than those perpretated by other clans as our nation is one of criminals).

 

Before being hastily labeled as yet another "USC Moryaan hiding behind Islam to keep looted properties" (as if this was the ultimate crime in contrast to advocating secularism), I want to make it clear that I neither have any tribal link whatsoever with Southern Somalia nor support Northern secessionism...

[Nur]

Khalf bro.

 

You wite:

 

"and Nur is unable to come to terms that not every somali sees the ICU as he does."

 

 

Brother, That statement is not accurate, no where have i denied the deep division of Somali people on the ICU and the TFG.

 

My whole point was that te ICU and the TFG to be different, not the same thing as my brother Bixi suggested. And I have given examples to show their difference, unfortunately, Bixi is not convinced, in part, my argument was unconvincing, and in part we may be on different pages when it comes to the metrics of measurement, in my case, Islam, Tawheed, and loyalty to Allah's law and Deen comes as the unmovable pillar on which to lean on, however, I failed bringing this fact clearly to my brother's attention. But I sincerely love him for his heartly welcome of Islam as the only solution, what remains to be done is agreeing on how Islam can bring us al together under Allah's deen. ( Next Discussion inshAllah)

 

 

Geel Jire and Abu Salman

 

Good analyses brothers, Brother Bix has never said anywhere that Dahir Aweis is like Geeddi or Abdullahi Yusuf. He has only said the two groups, because they INCLUDE similar criminal warlords are in essence the same.

 

The logical point of discussion was, if there are two groups fighting over a principle, ( ICU for Islamic Sharia, Blessed BY Quraan and Sunnah, and the TFG for Tribal Governance System blessed by Ethiopia and America) does it matter if they include members who have past history contrary to the present principle under which they are currently serving?

 

For example, does it matter if the TFG includes a Sheikh who used to support the Sharia, but now his pocket is full of cash and suppots secularism? or if the ICU includes a clan warlord who agreed to work under the leadership of the Islamic courts and accepts Islam and Sharia to be the onl solution?)

 

Everyone knows Abdullahi Yusuf was the first warlord in our History, " According to his own words in his presidnetial inauguration speech in Nairobi", later, it bacame a trend among major clans to create factions along clan lines all vying for power in our country, from SSDF, SNM and the USC, resulting devastation of our nation and country.

 

The years that followed, a lot of attrocities were committed by these very criminal warlords, innocent civilians on all sides were killed and raped for their clan afiliation if they were caught in the wrong region, which continued all the way to the advent of the rise of Islamic Courts Union, whose first internationally recognized achievement was law and order never seen in our country, eviction of Moriyyans from homes they illigally seized and occupied, teh Courts gave stolen properties back to its orginal owners and victims.

 

In their quest for peace, the courts have even invited Abdullahi Yusuf to come to Mogadishu as teh President of Somalia, to lead the Nation accodring to teh Sharia, as a compromise to avoid further bloodshed, but because the system that was firmly in place in Mogadishu was Islamic Sharia, not secular Clan system, which is the only language Abdullahi Yususf fluently understands, he rejected the offer, partially because he is not a free man, instead , he opted to come to Mogadishu mounted on Ethiopian Tanks.

 

To this day, as a result of that fateful decision of his, hundreds of thousands have been displaced, thousands killed or maimed Ethiopians he "invited " to make "peace" in a peaceful city, enjoying peace for a good six months, without even securing any international mandate for the invasion. According to the UN, The Presence of the Ethipian Troops is illegal occupation, which gives the Somali people right to resist.

 

I am not a blind supporter of the Courts, my angle of view is different, I see the Sharia law as the only legitimate governance mechanism that can save Somalis in this life and the next, anyone who declares to be dedicated to apply Sharia and make peace in our country has my full support, Why can't the TFG even claim to be ready to uphold the Sharia Law to steal the show from the ICU?

 

They cant! Their masters would not let them, they are not free, how can they free the nation?

 

 

Nur