Somalinimo-on-steroids

[Castro]

Originally posted by Kashafa:

Somalinimo-on-steroids

More like Somalinimo on crack. 'Me' is shining the spotlight on the wrong object at the wrong time. A deliberate, but failed, distraction tactic, if you will. He would make McCarthy proud.

 

Somaliland is what it is. Get over it people.

[Che -Guevara]

Castro....You are being little bit emotive. Mr Me has a point. He believes in the unity of Somalis and understand only coherent unified Somali resistance can dislodge the Ethios from Somalia.

 

The resistance is fighting a good cause, but as long as you have another Somali parading with the Ethios while the majority of the Somali populace sit by idly (and mind you, while Xamar was being bombed, all Somalis from Ras Asir to Kamboni did nothing), there will no much of success, and Somalis will continue to be at the mercy of exerternal forces.

[xiinfaniin]

Unity is the only way to victory...

[Castro]

^^^^ Atheer Xiin, do you have any idea how far we are from unity? The Somaliland issue is the symptom not the disease. Getting all hot and bothered about the symptom while ignoring the cause doesn't impress me much.

 

The lack of unity we have is not a geographical problem of borders but an ideological one of clan allegiances.

[AYOUB]

Originally posted by Kashafa:

Sxb. As genuine and noble your good intentions are (again they don't cash that check at the bank), your version of secular Somalinimo is corrupt, bankrupt, and extinct. Deader than the Dodo itself. No more Kacaanka. No more Guulwade Aabahee-garashada Siad Barre. No more orientation centers.

I think you're asking a little bit too much of Mr ME. He had sleepless nights last time this subject came up..

[me]

There are two threads going on with the same subject, so I see no reason to dilute this discussion. I will be on the Reality Check thread.

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by Castro:

^^^^ Atheer Xiin, do you have any idea how far we are from unity? The Somaliland issue is the symptom not the disease. Getting all hot and bothered about the symptom while ignoring the cause doesn't impress me much.

 

The lack of unity we have is not a geographical problem of borders but an ideological one of clan allegiances.

Castrow, somaliland’s political elite seeks independence. They would do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. That not only puts them in league with the old man and his fellow warlords, in the big scheme of things, but also, and more importantly, it complicates efforts to achieve unity, ideologically and geographically. It renders our standing quite weak. To be sure Somaliland did not cause the political and clannish ills that caused the demise of Somali state. But to ignore the nature of this movement is simply wrong. What can one do about it? Not much it seems. But talk about it. Point out its holes. And put it in the context of Ethiopia’s regional ambitions.

 

If you think Somaliland’s pronounced policy of separatism is not a serious one, then you need to educate me. And please tell me what are the root causes of Somalia’s problems if not External forces exploiting our weak tribal settings?

[Fabregas]

Sheikh Xiinow, Why would Somalilanders want to come back to the unity, when there is no unity in the first place? Why would they want to preserve the people whom they say commited genocide against them? Furthermore, why should they take the ambitions of Ethiopia seriously? When the Ethiopian regime took care of them, whilst Somalis were fighting against them and allegedly commited a genocide against their people.Moreover, Ethiopia gave them food, shelter and safety when they were in their hardest time. Thus to them Ethiopia has been a key ally during the good and the bad times. One could even the rival Somali subclan poses more of a threat to them than Ethiopia does.

 

This could equally be said of many a Somali clans and sub-clan, whom don't mind having a healthy relationship with Ethiopia or even asking them assist them against the threat of reer Bakayle-Weyne, who are intent(as they imagine) on taking their wells, cities and revenging the deaths of 1970 codh-codh. Of course, I don't entirely belive many of the things I have just said.Nevertheless, the questions is: What can we offer Somaliland? If it is unity don't we need to get unity first and make it work? Don't we need to show them what their missing out on?

 

It's a like a premiership footbal team right at the bottom of the table that is about to be relegated, asking a player who's team is just safe(above) from relegation, to come and join them. They promise him that more money will come into the team(and him) time in the near future and more better players will be bought, thus making them better than his former club. The dillema of the player is, " Does he join the poorer club and hope for better things in the future than he has now? This could mean relegation to the poorer division! Or " Does he stick safe with the team that is just above the relegation and doing better than the club that is making the offer? In other words, why should Somaliland give up what it is earned and for what?

[xiinfaniin]

^^Geeljire, someone needs to convince me first about what makes Somaliland distinct from the rest. Read the questions I posed to good Baaruud in the other thread and try to answer them. The role of Somalilanders is the same very role you and I have to regain our dignity. There will always be a segment, in any society, who stands to benefit from others demise--those I believe are minority and all informed Somalis with good consciousness are not proud of what has transpired during the absence of Somali state.

 

But come again adeer and answer me those questions…

[NASSIR]

Geeljire, the word genocide has been overused and misused or is it not?

 

This is the meaning of Genocide

the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

 

Siyad Bare's regime went after rebels who were agents of social disorder and the government at the time treated ith as potential and actual dangers to the social order.

 

Our brother me opened a thread in which he posted actual documents from reputable sources. It was explicit to everyone from those sources that the regime of Bare were welcoming the displaced to their homes again, and many refugees actually returned after the rebels were defeated.

 

On the other hand, I have always had disagreement with those who treated the outcome of former SNM vs the government war as genocide. In fact, it was SNM that committed genocide against civilians of Sool and Sanaag because it intentionally and deliberately massacred civilians on the countryside and even captured towns and villages.

 

The USC had done the same thing until it disintegrated into several factions hostile to one another. Prior to that and in 1991-3, the USC deliberately went after civilians and massacred them systematically.

 

However, the segment whose people were massacred by both SNM and USC under the phrase of "******" appear to have forgotten the past and forgiven them. Hardly has there been an interest into this subject, politicized and ballyhooed by the victims. Recently, authors like Dr. Jowhar, BAshir Goth from Awdal region, emphasized such horrible events in an obvious intention to compare and contrast what is happening now in Mogadisho and back then and with the aim of driving a big wedge among perceived rival clans of Somalia.

 

I just can't bear with the mischaracterization of political terms such as genocide, self-determination, etc. Geeljire, what you are proposing is that one "marginalized" clan/entity should be imposed upon the same clan it expresses its grievances. It will create nothing but implosion within Somalia and further division.

Bantustan like states will never benefit any group or clan.

[Fabregas]

Xiin, i will try to answer your points inshallah!

 

Caamir, Geel_Jire said: " Of course, I don't entirely believe many of the things I have just said".

[Castro]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

To be sure Somaliland did not cause the political and clannish ills that caused the demise of Somali state. But to ignore the nature of this movement is simply wrong. What can one do about it? Not much it seems. But talk about it. Point out its holes. And put it in the context of Ethiopia’s regional ambitions.

There's little that is distinct about Somaliland. Not the people, the culture, the suffering or even the ideology. They (the elites, elders, or whatever you want to call them) just took it to another level. You may have seen this but recently, I tried to find out when 'secession' first came into the lexicon and it seems the whole idea was cooked up in a short period of time then sold to the populace. At the time, conditions were ripe, I believe, for the people to accept it and those who didn't decided fighting it wasn't really worth the trouble given the state of the rest of the nation.

 

Somalilanders may or may not be interested in talking about the inception of their yet to be born nation, but if I were a die hard secessionist, I'd like to find out how I ended being one. Elders and elites may only fool the population for so long and if Somaliland is simply a racket, as some of us believe, then it's only a matter of time before the majority will realize they're being distracted with a failed ideology instead of receiving a decent regional government that's not in cahoots with Ethiopia.

 

Moving on. This issue of secession is but one of the symptoms of our disease. Different Somali groups using Ethiopia, as Geel_Jire eloquently explains, to fight, conquer, occupy or secede from their own is another symptom. The mistrust, the selfishness, the ignorance, the myopia and last but not least, the racism of our people towards each other is the disease. Somaliland is but one of the symptoms and the bandwidth that's spent on it seems way out of proportion to its significance.

[xiinfaniin]

Castrow, waa carraabay adeer! But if it's a question of proportianality then i think you have a point...but the unionist concerns are real adeer!

 

Waa inoo berri IA.

[NGONGE]

Ah! Yet another pointless debate. I refuse to take this seriously unless and until you throw the clan issue into the mix.

 

I'm not the world's biggest expert on Somali clans. In fact, back in the days when I first was forced to mix with Somalis, I once unwittingly threatened to beat up an entire sub-sub-clan! The misunderstanding was owing to the fact that when two people fall out and someone reports that fall out to a third party, they would say that one particular clan had a disagreement with another. But, of course, the beauty of Somali clans is that they're not designated some clear identifiable names. Instead, they're called Cali Moxamed, Cumar Cawar or Cabdullahi Curyaan! Now, when some random Nomad came to me and informed me that Xasan Xabiibleh beat up my young brother how in the world was I supposed to know that this was the name of a clan and not a single person?

 

I tell you, I almost caused a diplomatic incident as I tried to attack my brother's assailant outside the mosque (just as the old men were coming out). As is typical with Somalis, everyone tried to intervene as I shouted all sorts of threats and swore that I shall not rest until I put this Xabiibleh's nose in the mud. A couple of old men got really agitated and dared me to do it (I simply thought they were the father and uncle of the cowardly Xabiibleh). Luckily, they found someone that could speak Arabic and explain the whole thing to me. But my actions seemed to be strong enough to warrant a sit-together between my clan and cowardly Xabiibleh's clan (or shall I say the Xabiibleh clan? The guy's real name turned out to be a boring old Abdi).

 

At any rate, that day I learned that whenever one talks about Somalia and not include the clans in those discussions I'll do well to ignore their rants as nothing but empty talk and hot air. So, come on, tell me what clans fuel your love for Islamnimo or Somalnimo.

 

Disclaimer:

 

any resemblance between the clans herein and real clans existing or otherwise is purely coincidental.

[Socod_badne]

Somaalinimo is/was a ruse by the political elites to garner wide support for their naked ambitions. Somalinimo was given it's chance and was not only found wanting but immensely detrimental to the interests of Somalis in general for the aforementioned reason. They say those who don't learn from history are apt to repeat it. For once Somalis made intelligent decision in rejecting phony nationalism in favour of sheer pragmatism and bottom-line. Not only was it smart decision but also based on many life statistics the correct one.

 

 

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!

 

 

By the way, I fail to see how Islam is realistic remedy to Somalia's problems or credible replacement for Somaalinimo. I know many here regard Islam as panacea for all sorts of socio-politico-economic challenges but folks that's arguing out of faith and not from reason or evidence. It seems to me Islam suffer from the same shortcomings as Somaalinimo. Mainly: how can we be reassured Islam will not be misused like Somaalinimo was misused?