Demonstrations against peacekeeping force

[miles-militis]

Gentlemen - whilst chewing on the questions raised and subjects of FTs and relocation, I came across an interview with Prof. Al-Azhari, an advisor to Somalia’s President who delves head first right into the raw gouge of the issues at hand. Listen to it, and lets re-group at sunrise, shall we?

http://hornafrik.com/Audio/Azari.rm

[Sophist]

I recently found a well written and lengthy piece in my inbox—49 pages long; the first thing that came to my mind was; if a man takes all that time to write something as lengthy as this with such catching name one must be obliged to give such a brother an audience and as such that is what I did. Unlike many political essays that are penned down these days, this man wrote eloquently but his idealistic approach to the “Somali problem†fouled what would have been one of the best analysis of such a grave matter; oh well I digress. This FT issue seems to blur the minds of many rational thinking Somalis. I had a discussion with fellow “educated†Somali men two nights ago. Save one of them, all were thinking while wearing their murky thinking hats. Most of them seem to loose the plot. None of them could table a logically coherent way which affords this government to work in Mogadishu without FT.

 

Though, I despise our continual enemy (note I didn’t say historical rivals; a favourite word to many—perhaps for political correctness reasons), the idea that this government will work without FT's is ruse pretext from those who don't want the rebirth of our nation.

[Rahima]

Though, I despise our continual enemy (note I didn’t say historical rivals; a favourite word to many—perhaps for political correctness reasons), the idea that this government will work without FT's is ruse pretext from those who don't want the rebirth of our nation.

This may be the case for a minority, but certainly not all.

 

Many are objecting for the simple reason that the proposed FTs will include kuffar and more disturbingly include troops from, as you so rightly put, our continual enemy.

 

I sincerely believe that overall, the people of Somalia are good people, people who are tired of lawlessness and want the law to prevail. Many are hoping for the success of this government (including those in Mogadishu, contrary to popular propaganda), but will not compromise certain standards such as keeping the gaalo troops out of our land.

[Jumatatu]

DR.Cali Khaliif Galeyr wareysi dhinacya badan tabanaya, maxuusa ka yiri ciidamada Itoobiya ka

[Saxardiid]

[Sophist]

Rahima my darling sister,

 

Is re-establishing government in Somalia good for out plighted nation?

 

Is the current government a legitimate government?

 

When we agree upon the answers of the above questions can we only debate the FT issue.

[xiinfaniin]

It seems the proponent of Mogadishu as a suitable city to host Mr. Yusuf are losing the argument miserably. And supporters of foreign troops failed to articulate how that venture could bring stability when large segment of the society are hostile to it!

 

Here is where my argument has some merit and deserves some consideration.

 

But first some facts of mine:

 

Fact#1:Whatever Mogadishu was before the civil war; today it’s radically a different city. Since the civil war, Mogadishu has become the political and economic power center of just one clan. The rest of the Somali clans were expelled and forced to leave their properties and their city. When the dust settled and tribal sentiment subsided, no substantial reconciliation steps have been taken by the ‘expellers’ and thus, the city remains under the illegitimate control of that clan’s powerful warlords. That is the true status of Mogadishu.

 

Fact#2: Ethiopia has historically been and still remains the sworn enemy of Somalia. For Ethiopia to send troops to stabilize Mogadishu is analogues to India sending troops to Waziristan in Pakistan. It will be a destabilizing factor, not stabling one, a barrier, and not an enabler. It could invoke religious and clannish emotions and trigger unwanted war. In short, it won’t serve its declared purpose; to enable this government to govern and bring stability to Somalia. If Mr. Yusuf wants to use these troops to affect vengeance and settle old scores with Mogadishu warlords is a different story!

 

Based on fact#1, this government need not go to Mogadishu. Frankly, it shouldn’t go to Mogadishu until true and comprehensive reconciliation is undertaken. Rather it should relocate to Baidoba. For one, it would be goodwill gesture for that community given the grievances and injustices that’s done to them during the civil war. For another, it will be a lot cheaper place to relocate; the government can literally build its institutions from nothing and will probably cost eighth of what it would in Mogadishu! Yep, it’s about economics sxb! And lastly, foreign troops may not be needed. If they are, their symbolic presence will suffice.

 

And by the way, for that evil Ethiopia, I despise them. And to my dismay I have no nukes to explode! So we have to apparently live with that reality for now!

[Baashi]

“Belling the Cat†the old fable comes to mind. Source: Harvard Classics, 1909–14.

 

LONG ago, the mice had a general council to consider what measures they could take to outwit their common enemy, the Cat. Some said this, and some said that; but at last a young mouse got up and said he had a proposal to make, which he thought would meet the case. “You will all agree,†said he, “that our chief danger consists in the sly and treacherous manner in which the enemy approaches us. Now, if we could receive some signal of her approach, we could easily escape from her. I venture, therefore, to propose that a small bell be procured, and attached by a ribbon round the neck of the Cat. By this means we should always know when she was about, and could easily retire while she was in the neighbourhood.â€

 

This proposal met with general applause, until an old mouse got up and said: “That is all very well, but who is to bell the Cat?†The mice looked at one another and nobody spoke. Then the old mouse said:

“IT IS EASY TO PROPOSE IMPOSSIBLE REMEDIES.â€

Now , what if the TFG gives in and says al right we will exclude Ethiopian troops from the proposed FTs, wouldn’t that cool down the rhetoric a bit? That will take away the opposition’s whole argument. From what I understand, they are not against FTs per se but the Ethiopian troops coming in Xamar, which is a reasonable demand in my opinion.

 

Reading what Ato said, I understand that he wants to store the militia’s guns in a designated area guarded by FTs (Ethiopian excluded) provided Puntland’s ammunition cash is subject on the same procedure. That’s where the problem lies for Puntland has a standing army that have to keep eye on Somaliland militia. Perhaps the FTs civilian command can draft a memorandum of understanding that spells out that if tribal equilibrium is threatened there will be procedure that will allow clan militia to take back its ammunition cash till government becomes effective.

 

However you look at it, this is not an easy problem!

[Jumatatu]

Originally posted by Baashi:

That’s where the problem lies for Puntland has a standing army that have to keep eye on Somaliland militia.

Loooool..! Notice the Puntland 'army' and the S/land 'militia'.

You forgot to mention that Ato has a standing 'militia' that has to keep an eye on Puntland 'army'.

 

This however is very sensible solutions and could be a possible idea:

Perhaps the FTs civilian command can draft a memorandum of understanding that spells out that if tribal equilibrium is threatened there will be procedure that will allow clan militia to take back its ammunition cash till government becomes effective.

[Garyaqaan2]

we all don't like the amxaaro but lets face the fact, who do you think should compromise the government or the powerfull ganacsadayaal, Qa

[Rahima]

Rahima my darling sister,

 

Is re-establishing government in Somalia good for out plighted nation?

 

Is the current government a legitimate government?

 

When we agree upon the answers of the above questions can we only debate the FT issue.

Sophist my dear brother how are you?

 

I’m sure you know that we both agree that re-establishing a government in Somalia is good for our people and regardless of whether they are our preferred choice of government, this government is nonetheless a legitimate government.

 

Having said that, there are certain principles, which as I said just cannot be compromised, i.e. gaalo FT.

 

What I don’t understand and still cannot seem to believe is why is this government so insistent on bringing these gaalo troops, why not just replace them with Muslims (I’m sure it isn’t very difficult)? At least then, many will come on board. Somalia and Somalis have changed. Brother I just went to Somalia, here in the west I am considered to be a reasonably dressed Muslimah, I went to Somalia and I must admit sadly that I was out of place (in terms of dress). Every little girl is adorning the jilbaab and many women the niqaab. This is just a small example of how much Somalia has changed and how different the people back home are from those of us here in the West. To say that they have taken on traditional Islam in droves would be an understatement .

 

About a year ago, my eedo moved from JigJigga to Mogadishu. I had the pleasant opportunity of meeting her for the first time in my life. As we sat outside one night, having a family discussion (teaching me about the paternal family and dancing the zaylici for me ), I happened to ask her why she was in Mogadishu. She basically had no family in Mogadishu (my fathers family are all in Boorama or Jig Jigga) and all her daughters and sons we’re married and living in Jigjigga. To my surprise her answer was simple, she could no longer bear the Ethiopian tyranny. Living in the house with us was my habaryar who had come from Dire Dawa to see us; her stories of the Ethiopian government were basically the same, oppression and not having the right to practice Islam as you see fit (try growing your beard in peace ). I am personalizing the issue for then we understand why this issue touches the hearts of many in such a personal way-but I’m sure many of us were already aware of all of this.

 

To make matters even worse, Mogadishu has many “refugees†from Somali Galbeed who have fled the oppression. They come to the capital for although nearer, Somaliland is a no-go zone for them (some expressed that they would be handed back to the Ethiopians because of their tribe) and other areas will not be able to handle the sheer number of them. It is for this reason that many in Mogadishu are against this proposed move, not because they are FT, but because they are kuffar.

 

Honestly at times I doubt the intelligence of these men in government, this is just about the most dim-witted move possible. Instead of getting the Somalis on board they are alienating them on an issue which is very sensitive to the hearts of many.

 

Personally, I believe that they need to re-think this move and as Baashi said exclude the Ethiopian (and all other kuffar for that matter), for this is a demand which is more than reasonable.

 

Mogadishu has become the political and economic power center of just one clan.

Lets just say we agree on this-which part of Somalia hasn’t?- probably just Kismaayo.

 

Fact#1:Whatever Mogadishu was before the civil war; today it’s radically a different city. Since the civil war, Mogadishu has become the political and economic power center of just one clan. The rest of the Somali clans were expelled and forced to leave their properties and their city. When the dust settled and tribal sentiment subsided, no substantial reconciliation steps have been taken by the ‘expellers’ and thus, the city remains under the illegitimate control of that clan’s powerful warlords. That is the true status of Mogadishu.

This is factual how so?

 

And you would know because you have been there recently right?

 

Honestly, it is those outside of Mogadishu and those of us in the west that propagate the so-called power of these warlords. Most of these warlords have almost next to no influence over the majority of the people of Mogadishu- I just wish that people would stop over-exaggerating their power. If anything, it is the courts, which hold far more power, to the point that the courts attack the checkpoints of these warlords and the warlords do not utter a word. Although i disagree with the courts on their stance against the government, if i were CY or Geedi i would be working towards reconciling with them for they along with the other religious folks (who mind you are also the business community), hold the power balance of Mogadishu in their hands.

 

But I must agree with one point, I fail to understand why there is all this interest in Mogadishu. If it means that the government will go-back on the FTs issue, then it would be best that they be re-located elsewhere. Anything to avoid bloodshed (which is what will happen if this goes ahead) is fine by me.

 

Mogadishu should be allowed to be as it is- I believe that the good people there will deal appropriately with their garbage over the coming years. With so many people (the city is extremely overcrowded, it will take time-long enough for this government to get on their feet).

 

Then the government should offer good-will gestures, beginning with the re-building of the streets and previous government buildings- sadly every business man has built his empire whilst neglected the collective landmarks of the city.

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by Rahima:

Lets just say we agree on this-which part of Somalia hasn’t?- probably just Kismaayo.

Kismayo, good Rahima, is no Mogadishu. It’s a regional capital and never had the status and prestige of Mogadishu! Mogadishu, on the other hand, used to be clan neutral and diverse city. To compare the two is missing the point, good sister!

 

Originally posted by Rahima:

Honestly, it is those outside of Mogadishu and those of us in the west that propagate the so-called power of these warlords. Most of these warlords have almost next to no influence over the majority of the people of Mogadishu- I just wish that people would stop over-exaggerating their power.

So the southern warlord running the city and controlling it is a popular myth! And I must’ve lost in touch with the reality!

[LANDER]

Originally posted by Jumatatu:

quote:Originally posted by Baashi:

[qb]That’s where the problem lies for Puntland has a standing army that have to keep eye on Somaliland militia.

Loooool..! Notice the Puntland

'army'

and the S/land

'militia'

.

, yes I do find "gulwadee's" to be quite entertaining myself. A few simple questions, since its not the first time I come across your rhetoric with respect to this matter. Define Army, or better yet distinguish between Army and Militia. Are you hinting that the Somaliland forces are not a "professional" body where as Puntland's forces are professional? That is usually the classic definition of a militia, but more likely you are alluding to some power relationship? i.e one having considerably more military might than the other to the extent where one seems like a militia in comparison. If the latter be the case, please do enlighten us from a strategic/logistical point of view as to the capabilities of this "Puntland Army". i.e Artillery, Infantry, armoured vehicle divisions etc...and if by chance you so happen to also know that of Somaliland, perhaps you could compare the two for us so we could better understand your perspective. Look forward to your analysis. But if I ask for too much, than by all means do carry on your Big Talk.

 

p.s. don't mean to hijack this thread a brief description will suffice.

[Baashi]

Lander,

Easy there sxb I used to think reer Hargeisa have an army of their own. You said it's like 50K strong and will capture Puntland in no time. I, for one, was scared and remember I fled from my fav place of SOL forum: politics section. The much awaited clash came and you were proven wrong. That's when I changed my mind about the Hargiesa's mighty army

 

From that day on I decided to call them militia. On the other hand, I don't care if you call PL army militia or not. It just doesn't matter. What I say on these boards cannot change the reality on the ground. What it can do, however, is make you holler

 

Now, what you think FTs and its implications?

[Rahima]

So the southern warlord running the city and controlling it is a popular myth! And I must’ve lost in touch with the reality!

What is a popular myth is the thinking they have a great deal of power. What I am speaking of is the power that they have over the people (even by land they don’t control much); if anything the courts have more power over the people and land.

 

God forbid, if war were to break out in Mogadishu today, I doubt that many would fight for these warlords-the people are just tired and many have learnt that these warlords are their enemies. Those who support the warlords are very few.

 

Easy there sxb I used to think reer Hargeisa have an army of their own. You said it's like 50K strong and will capture Puntland in no time. I was for one scared and remember I fled from my fav place of SOL forum: politics section. The much awaited clash came and you were proven wrong. That's when I changed my mind about the Hargiesa's mighty army

 

From that day on I decided to call them militia. On the other hand, I don't care if you call PL army militia or not. It just doesn't matter. What I say on these boards cannot change the reality on the ground. What it can do, however, is make you holler

Oh Bashi you are cruel, just cruel I tell ya.

 

Am I allowed to laugh though? It was amusing, make you holler ku lahaa.

 

But we await and see, some will take it so serious like you had a poke at their mothers .