A dialogue with brother Red Sea.

[xiinfaniin]

In the spirit of Kaadi badane waa loo gogol badiyaa Somali maah-maah, xiinfaniin produces 'A dialogue with brother Red Sea' thread

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After brother Cayrow jr a.k.a red sea protested as to why some of us pointed at his secessionist political view, I asked him simple questions and requested him to respond to them in a thoughtful manner. His responses, I said, would give us a measure of the man and whether his vehement objections against Sh. Sharif’s approach are politically motivated.

Below is what I wrote in a protest thread initiated by the brother himself:

 

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

Ceyrow

, stop this emotional fanfare adeer, and answer me following question.

 

Do you consider Ethiopia’s influence is limited to South Somalia?

If you answer no, and think entire Somali republic, as it stands today, falls in Ethiopia’s sphere of influence and she has succeeded to put puppet regimes in place based on Somali divisions, please tell us what approach you think would be suitable to change our (notice the plural) current situation. Would you reckon, for instance, that we can fight Ethiopia and the powers that support her without first doing away our divisions? If so, please lay out a feasible strategy that achieves that noble goal!

 

If you however believe Ethiopia’s intervention and hegemony is a southern problem, and you as a Somalilander want to help your southern brothers resist her brutal occupation, I would like you to take crack on the following q.

 

What’s the role of Somaliland entity in all of this? Does it enable Ethiopia’s intervention, impede, or neither? And what are you doing about it?

 

Your answers of the above qs will in fact show whether your protest thread has any merit! They will also show whether your support of alshabaab is out of convenience or, as you claim, out of conviction.

 

 

ps It would only help you sell your stance if you manage to leave

uncles

and

cousins

out of your argument.

I’ve decided to reissue my challenge to the said brother for two reasons. #1 I always felt that Sharif acted the way he did in consideration of Somalia’s political disintegration, and potential territorial break up if the current turmoil persists. In fact, in his BBC interview he gave amble hints about that being one of the things he considered! Having brother red sea respond to my qs is a way to further the discussion about Jabbuuti Agreement from that angle.

 

#2 I also want to expose the inherent incoherencies of supporting your country’s dismemberment on a one hand, and rooting for the most pro unity group in Somalia, al shabaab! This is a good oppurtuniy for brother Cayrow jr. to give us some insights about the mechanics of his position.

 

So Cayrow jr. aka red sea, the floor is all yours.

[AYOUB]

Are the rest of us allowed to chip in?

[RedSea]

Hello there Xiin Faniin,

 

 

I want to apologize right off the bat here for not being able to see those q you've posted in the other thread earlier.

 

 

Now, my post wasn't a emotionally motivated, however it raised few points as to why a fellow somali from any region outside southern somalia can't seem to take part in a open dialogue regarding the occupation. Or whether or not one needs to be pro somaliwayne, pro somaliland, from Jabuuti and somali galbeed to condemn what is immoral and out right wrong.

 

 

Let us first call this occupation of what it is, outright illegal. Since there is no denial that is the case I believe anyone regardless of their regional background or political affliation must feel free to voice their concerns of the increasing human rights violations. That is when not speaking as Muslim, Somali, but as Human being let along being a Muslimsomali seeing the voilence.

 

I was in support for ICU when it was stronger, more popular and when even some of its members made threats against somaliland. Now if my support for them wasnt' out of conviction surely you would have seen me switch sides.(You know who I am talking about) I believe I have been seen only handful of folks around here who haven't changed the tune when things didn't seem to go as they hoped. Nay, I will continue to support the Al shabaab many months to come Insha Allah.

 

Morever, whether the indepence of Somaliland has anything to do with what is happening in the south, i very much doubt it. Somaliland's does have very romantic relations with Ethiopia, as much as I am bothered by the fact that Rayaale kahin cheered for Ethiopia on their 'victory march to xamar' I cannot put it on the same level as the TFG, because they are not comparable. Somaliland has words to support Ethiopia, however never done anything like the TFG.

 

I take the tie between somaliland's seperatist voyage and Ethiopia's invasion as a desperate one just so to call me a hypocrit with double agenda in order to exclude me from the discussion. offcourse I will not bite that, but I think it needs to be noted here.

 

I believe I have as much of right to discuss southern somalia's affairs as a Puntlander. Ethiopia gets more support from Puntland because of its close proximity to Southern Somalia, however at the same time folks such as you, and many others continue to oppose the TFG and its agenda for most of the time. No one asks you to do something about it or asks you as to why your home region continue to support the enemy, now that would stup1d. Because you are simply an individual who has his own words to speak of and opposes what YOu think is wrong. However to deny Ceyrowjr. that same liberty is a double standard itself.

 

 

I am always in opposition to the wrong doer regardless of who they are.

 

A simple question: If Al shabaab oppose anything somaliland, and I myself am from somaliland. Then is that a convient for me or I am telling the truth and this is about conviction? Bal dadoo you tell me.

 

Second question: Again, it stands, why does it matter where one is from to voice his opposition to anything. Heck you are from Puntland yet here you are, why can't that happen for me or other here?

[xiinfaniin]

Ayyoub, you have been very reasonable in your stance regarding the Jabbuuti agreement. Just like Northern and NGONGE, you have said let us give the good Sheekh a chance.

 

You don’t really need to chip in this discussion!

 

Brother Redka: You didn’t answer my questions. Lets do it one at time.

 

Q1: Do you consider Ethiopia’s influence is limited to South Somalia?

If you answer no, and think entire Somali republic, as it stands today, falls in Ethiopia’s sphere of influence and she has succeeded to put puppet regimes in place based on Somali divisions, please tell us what approach you think would be suitable to change our (notice the plural) current situation. Would you reckon, for instance, that we can fight Ethiopia and the powers that support her without first doing away our divisions? If so, please lay out a feasible strategy that achieves that noble goal!

[Che -Guevara]

Xiin-Sorry about your other topic horta. Do you hope for diffirent outcome everytime you start one of these debates about the same topic with the same individuals.

[Fabregas]

Red See, why are you turning the into issue one concerning who is from Puntland, am Somaliland, ama Somali Galbeed?

 

The issue is concerning "seccesionists", people who want the seperation of Somalia! Not all "Somalilanders" or Northerners are seccessionists! Wa saad marki hore tidihi( seccessionists can't speak about Somalia thread?)! Hada shekada ha badalin

[xiinfaniin]

^^Wayxaka yaa diktoor!

 

Originally posted by Che -Guevara:

Xiin-Sorry about your other topic horta. Do you hope for diffirent outcome everytime you start one of these debates about the same topic with the same individuals.

^^Che, actually my hope of these discussions turning into something useful is not that big.

You see there a lot of odoyaal iyo habro who would reject men with great ideas solely on clannish basis. SOL has a fairly educated contributors, and I refuse to accept people with such level of education like Red Sea has would reject an a compromised deal to save their country from plunging into chaos even further. So I want to challenge them. They don’t have to agree with Sharif, but they need to articulate a way out of our mess. A fight between Somali functions is not new to us. It’s not an option.

 

Red Sea is on the hot seat…ha firgax-firgaxleeyee iidhaafaa.

[RedSea]

Adeer Brofessor,

 

Postkaygii hore wuxuu kahadlayey in aan kahadli karo arimaha somalia anoo kasoo jeeda somaliland oo seccesionist ah on a level of somaliness, Muslimnimo and bina'dnimo.

 

Anyhow nin ayaan invite ee maxaa kuhaya ee afka kaa falay?

 

 

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

 

 

Q1: Do you consider Ethiopia’s influence is limited to South Somalia?

[ Nope, There is no doubt about whatsoever in anyone's mind that Ethiopia has big influence in almost every somali inhabited region. Whether they are militarily active in areas or simply having a political influence over the others. There is no one that can deny that to simply put.

 

 

If you answer no, and think entire Somali republic, as it stands today, falls in Ethiopia’s sphere of influence and she has succeeded to put puppet regimes in place based on Somali divisions, please tell us what approach you think would be suitable to change our (notice the plural) current situation. Would you reckon, for instance, that we can fight Ethiopia and the powers that support her without first doing away our divisions?

Horta marka hore "gacmo wadajir bay wax ku gooyaan. " is a suitable proverb in here. I believe somalis need to unite against this common enemy, face it with all that they have whether it may be their souls, money, energy and all the talent they could muster. It's a dream of mine that I would love to see all somali regions starting from Jabuuti, Somaliland, Puntland, somali galbeed all get involved seemingly to help their brothers who are being suppresed at this time. That would do wonders if it happened.

 

 

Unfortunately, the reality on the ground paints a different picture. Today's war is a war based on MABDA', idealogies and beliefs. It's war that unites strangers and disunites common faces. You have for instance Abdullahi Yusuf, Nur Cadde, Ismail Hurre 'buubaa' and on the other hand you have Sheekh Sharif Ahmed, Dahir Aweys, Abu Mansuur and Mohamed Jama Qalib. Some of these on the oppossing ends are from the same sub clan such as Qaalib and Buubaa, Sharif Ahmed and Nur Cade. This is no longer a war along qabiil lines, but war along idealogies and mabda'.

 

I can sit here with my wishful thinking and agree with you and say that Somalis should unite and hold hands in this quest to oust Abysinia from Somalia, but then again that would only be viable in my dream not in the reality as we live in.

 

So even if let us say somaliland didnt' even declared its soveirnty and it was simply a region much like Puntland it would not have changed much of what is going on today. Having one common flag, doesnt' define unity. However what defines unity is having 1 common interest as people, one common enemy to combat, and a destiny that a nation strives to fulfil. If Somalis from Puntland and somalis from Muqdisho don't have a common interest (speaking of majority prespective) then I don't see how adding somaliland to the mix would change those dynamics or the outcome.

 

Something more than uniting adminstrations needs to happen in order for one to notice a real change of attitude with the somali people. What needs to happen, that mabda that we talked about needs to come together. People from as far as Djabuuti without endorsing the blue flag need to stimulously be seen defending the blue turf and same goes to Somaliland.

 

How do we fight Ethiopia?

 

 

I believe to defeat Ethiopia we need both long term and short strategies. So far Ethiopia has been fought gallantly by our young boys May God bless their souls. As much of sacrifices that they have made, and as much as much of casualties that the enemy has endured peace seems to be far fetched. Let me make it clear once again, I tip my hats off to those that stood up and answered the call for their nation and fought an invisible and powerful enemy and contineu to refuse to give in to this day. However I believe and I have always been open to any path to be taken to seek salvation out of this mess that has continued into the new century.

 

My short- term plans that I would like to see is:

 

Firstly, the international community whether it might the UN, Arab league, AU and all others invovled to first acknowledge that somalia is been contested by two opposing sides. they must not take sides or point the fingers. They must be fair and straight forward with the somali people. What do I mean about all of this?

 

1. Both parties have to be critized for the ongoing voilence equally.

2. The gross human rights violations have to be announced openly. They must assure the somali people that the international community is serious in accusing(that is the least they can do) those who have commited crimes against them.

3. They must listen to the wants and the reasons voiced by the Al shabaab group. they must consider a way to mediate fairly without giving neither side the upper hand over the other.

 

4. They must reconsider the 'terrorist label' that has been thrown around. They accuse Al shabaab of terror activities, yet legitimize the TFG and Ethiopia' invasion and to be expecting any sort peaceful outcome.

 

 

I believe if the international community can assert itself and not back paddle from the truth then I am pretty sure Al shabab, the somali people will find their negotiotion lenses and be willing to negotiate peacefully.

 

long-term plans:

 

I think at the end peacekeeping forces shall be excepted.

 

The somali people deserve the right to know.

 

-where these peacekeeping forces are coming from

-Who is commanding them.

-Whether their deployment is to 'secure the government' or whether it's to secure peace that is needed.

-Their timetable: Both deployment and when they will leave.

 

Right now, the agreement signed in Djabuti isn't a promising one. Only one party got what it wanted, and the other has not been even consider as legitimate oppostion group. they have been cheated and their requests havent been taking seriously. The human rights haven't been mentioned. Nor has there been any feasible promise of Ethiopian forces withdrawing from the country.

 

The agreement should have read that the somali people have voiced that Ethiopia must withdraw from Somalia quickly and politely and have excepted the conditions of replacement peacekeeping forces. Is that too much to ask horta?

 

 

ps. The mentioned noble goal, which I think you are refering to somali unity will only come when each region's inhabitants have the same idealogies. Which is to have one destiny, and one common interest.

 

Right now, you have the TFG, it's not Somalilanders best interest. you have Al shabaab, its' not TFG supporters best interests as they put it and so and and so forth. The people's minds have to be first united, before you can even think of uniting flags and regimes.

 

Allah knows best.

[xiinfaniin]

So far so good! Here are the points I managed to extract from your lengthy post.

 

You have taken clear stances on the following points:

 

1- Entire Somali republic, as the world recognizes it, falls within Ethiopia’s sphere influence.

2- Somali people are divided and their divisions are so deep to even entertain united front against Ethiopia’s invasion is a dream of sort.

3- Negotiated settlement is the only feasible route to resolve our conflict.

 

 

Here’s where your stance is not so clear.

1- You support Jabbuuti Agreement in principle?

2- You oppose it and think opposition groups has been cheated because:

a. Alshabaab has not been included?

b. Solid timetable of Ethiopia’s withdrawal has not been reached?

3- You want International community to be fair and recognize this conflict has two sides to it.

 

Did I read you right before I jump on any conclusions yaa Redka?

[Peace Action]

Xiin,

Ma qodax baad udhigaysaa Red Sea sida macalin Baashi. Waryaa Red Sea dhulka hoosta ka fiiri yeeyan qodaxdu ku mudin?

 

Seriouly congradulations for gentleman's debate and do not change the tone.

[Koora-Tuunshe]

^I like the way Xiin numbered the fuzzy points of Cayroow Jr.

 

Keep it up.

 

Waan idin wada salaamey.

[RedSea]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

 

 

Here’s where your stance is not so clear.

1- You support Jabbuuti Agreement in principle?

2- You oppose it and think opposition groups has been cheated because:

a. Alshabaab has not been included?

 

I think only unreasonable individual would oppose legitimate and reasonable agreement. I offcourse welcome any sort of peace making deal that can bring an end to this voilence in somalia. However it has to be reasonable and we have to know exactly what kinda deal we are getting into.

 

 

 

What The Djabtuuti conference didnt' address was the gross human righs voilations, didn't address the illeagality of the invasion. And certainly didn't mention Al shabaab as an opposition group but rather 'a terror' organization, while The Ethiopian invasion the TFG are supposedly a legitimate parties who are at odds with insurgents, who have no rights to oppose.

 

As much as this satifies the TFG/Ethiopians, it has allienated the freedom fighters in Somalia resulting in turning down and dismissing the 'agreement' as irrelevent to them. Why?

 

Does that mean they don't want peace, does that mean they wouldnt' like to see somalia' long standing stateless status come to an end? offcourse not. They want peace and nationhood just like everyone else, but however they refuse to take hand-outs and to be given a chosen path for them.

 

b. Solid timetable of Ethiopia’s withdrawal has not been reached?

 

Not really. The article didnt' guarantee anything and has only lightly scanned through a 120 days withdrawal deadline only with the replacement of peace keeping force. We all know how much the international community has struggled to muster or put together viable force to be sent to Somalia. I very much doubt that they will be able to pull that off. But who am to be skeptical right?

 

The freedom fighters in Somalia have made their stance clear to us all that they will not hold their fire until all of Ethiopian troops withdraw from the country. The TFG and their backers find those sentiments unreasonable so I say Ok, their must be a middle ground. that Both the TFG can except. Both the TFG and the freedom fighters must abandon some of their positions. The TFG must be ready to make sacrifices if they are willing to reach peaceful deals. The Al shabaab on the other hand can be negogiated to except the deployment of outside forces.

 

For any sort of peace to have a chance both parties must be willing to make bold moves and radical changes to their policies.

 

 

--TFG must except this in my opinion: Relocate back to Baydhabo.

--Ethiopian troops must also relocate along with them, thus leaving Muqdisho in the hands of the freedom fighters.

 

Al shabaab or other freedom fighters must: Hold their fire, and must be ready to abandon their stance on foreign forces.

 

Foreign peacekeepers must be as i stated before from non neighboring countries, must be clear from whom they their orders from, and display discipline and non partisan approach to Somalia' fragile political state. It must be clear on when they will leave as well. their operations must be limited to only security purposes and not any other sort of war on 'terror' nonsense.

 

This is only part of being fair deal. However the TFG/Ethiopia to be granted all that they wished, and to expect any changes to the stances of the Al shabaab is totally redicolous.

 

it's sort of saying we have invaded your country, killed your people, and now we expect you to except any 'peace' deal that I design for thee. It's hasn't worked for us, but only works to the favore of the invaders.

[xiinfaniin]

^^So those are the basis on which you rejected Jabbuuti agreement? And you prefer absense of dailgue until alshabaab 'hold their fire, and ...abandon their stance on foreign forces.'?

[xiinfaniin]

War mee Cayrow jr. Sadex beri buu inta secessionist qayilayya soo dhegeysto buu hadhow igu soo noqon…come out yaa zamiili come out where ever you are…

[RedSea]

^^^Xiin,

 

dialogue is only a term sxb. A Real dialogue is needed which the International community is gonna take part needs to act as serious mediater and must be willing to lay down strick guidelines for both parties concern without giving advange one over the other or without showing any sign of hesistant to address the issues of human rights violations. Its' only neccasary to clean up the wounds for the healing to begin.

 

It's only reasonable enough to state that to make any sort of agreement possible both sides must be willing to make bold moves and changes to their stances. Al shabaab sure needs to change some of their idealogies, however I don't see how we can expect them to do so when the other side hasn't shown any willingness or commitment to peace with exception of coming to the table with the same old argument that Ethiopia is a legit ally without recognising the fact Ethiopia has no legal rights to be there in the first place.