They are here to Stay

[Tahliil]

My good gracious god, has the debate really, that non-sensical, insane fadhi kudirir of SOL honestly transformed itself into: "that we can't live our lives in Somalia without the Ethiopian presence in the country." That our sole existance depends on them, and that if they leave we will skin each other alive?

 

My goodness, I have listened to the likes of these FREAKS so many times but I haven't heard a single stooge who ever uttered such rediculous words..before...

 

How is that possible? how is that really possible? that this Tigranyan merceneries is the glue that's holding the country together?....

 

man, ileeyn iska hadal waa loo hadlaa

[Gabbal]

Originally posted by Castro:

quote:Originally posted by N/AA:

Now you tell me what would happen.

I don't have a crystal ball but I will try to show you later how Somalis will be no worse off when the Ethiopians leave. In fact, I will argue they will be better off.

I thought as much.

[Castro]

As an invader and occupier (and an illegal one at that), Ethiopia has no right to stay. Now, they may use their power to do so but they have no rights what so ever. What they do have are responsibilities. Ethiopia has a responsibility to ensure the safety of civilians which we all (should) know by now it has shamelessly violated by bombing heavily populated civilian areas. The callousness with which it did so shows in what little regard it holds the very civilians it purports to defend. And from whom, the Islamic Courts? If the Ethiopians' repeated utterances of "terrorism" weren't so pathetic, they would be laughable.

 

Just who wants the Ethiopians to stay? The people of Muqdishu in particular and the rest of Somalis in general? You will be hard pressed to convince anyone that that is the case. So if the people of Somalia are opposed to this illegal occupation and the puppet regime it is protecting, is it not natural then a resistance (wearing whatever hat) would arise to fight this occupation? Is it not also expected the occupier and its sympathizers would use any means available to them (including the cheap propaganda you're helping them spread) in order to maintain this occupation?

 

Now, you claimed the power vacuum created by the departure of the occupier would be immense and consequently, you implied, Somalis would see chaos and war never seen in their history. I begged to differ. Anyone who understands and follows Somali politics would know the civil war in Somalia for 16 years was fueled by our clannish ignorance and Ethiopia's manipulation of this backwardness. If they were not arming one clan/fiefdom, they were arming the other. If they were not puppeteering one warlord, they were manipulating another. This happened so much and for so long that the political whoredom we witness today of many Somali politicians is simply a nefarious manifestation of the competition to please Ethiopia.

 

How could you then argue the departure of Ethiopia would cause an unprecedented calamity (in the form of a civil war, I presume) when Ethiopia itself sponsored our long running uncivil war. You would argue so because you falsely believe our civil war was solely a product of internal power struggle. You fail to realize that in addition to the internal feuds, a persistent and often blatant interference has maintained it. That interference finally culminated in the outright illegal invasion you wish to sugar coat at the moment. For centuries, Ethiopia has shown its ill intentions towards Somalis and to argue that their invasion is what brought peace and stability is the height of naivete. For you to suggest this absurdity either highlights your gullibility or shows your willful desire to deceive the gallery.

 

When, not if, the Ethiopians do leave, there will be a struggle to control and bring peace to Somalia. That struggle, as the Islamic Courts have shown, does not have to be the bloody or catastrophic disaster you and other occupation sympathizers would like us to believe. To be sure, there will be a period of instability and chaos but no more than Somalis have endured in the past and certainly nothing of the order you suggest. What will come out of the dust will be something Somalis, even if they disagree with, may tolerate for it is infinitely better than their worst enemy Ethiopia and its stooges calling the shots.

 

Originally posted by N/AA:

I thought as much.

Ye of little faith.

[xiinfaniin]

^^^And there you detain the logic of if Ethiopia were to leave today we would plunge into another civil war even further !

 

Only if the general masses were so adequately informed...

[Gabbal]

Castro, did you want to respond or did you feel as if you had to respond? Your inconsistent argument and the apparent lack of understanding of my own position (the very position you are challenging!) shows me you were poorly prepared to address me.

 

For one, HornAfrique neither supports nor argued for Ethiopian occupation of Somalia, per se. The apparent reality and the state of our affairs today forces me to call for cooling heads and embarking on honest discourse first and foremost. That is a respectable position by all accounts and the one I am sure is most able to successfully maneuver us out of the ditch we have placed ourselves in. It is my wish that we take advantage of the situation we have been presented with, the first instance since the inception of our infamous civil war that we can all actually come to the bargaining table as equals and not any more powerful then the other due to the size of the barrel of our gun. I neither support Ethiopian invasion to keep the current administration in power nor a premature, and somewhat politically inexperienced, radical response to the situation. If you then accuse my position of being tantamount to being a supporter of Ethiopian occupation, then so be it. Note, however, that I believe that is but a very feeble attempt designed to take the spotlight out of one's lack of confidence in their own radical, and ineffective, position, provided it is not a mere front.

 

Only in the third and fourth paragraphs did you discuss our point of contention, so you will respectfully understand if I take those paragraphs up to respond to. You argued that Ethiopia has made it a habit of continously trespassing on our affairs and helping stoke the civil war by way of arming various factions, and I agree. However, you then believe that if Ethiopia withdraws that all will be sound in Somalia and that Somali fratricide will not occur again in conjunction with heavy Ethiopian interference by way of arming those deemed to be supportive of them, out of scrutiny and with far more capabilities as a result of it.

 

Do you see where you fell off and how my position of "take advantage of the occupation to talk as equals, then campaign for Ethiopian withdrawal in unbroken unity" is legitimized?

 

Adeer Somalis have killed Somalis. Ethiopia might have given us weapons and watched us kill each other, but all she did was take advantage of most strategic situation presented to them. I can hardly blame them for that, but I can, however, blame Somalis for using those weapons to kill each other. Clearly Ethiopia did not take us by our hands and help us fire the trigger and if not them, someone had to do it! The question, then, that begs to be inquired is, why did that happen?. I take it that simple question answers just about everything you presented as your argument, so let me repeat mines, however redundant.

 

Because of the Ethiopian occupation, not only is international scrutiny preventing Ethiopia from arming us inorder to carry out clan warfare but it also gives us, Somalis, an opportunity to reflect and reevaluate our present circumstances and try to find lasting solutions to the divisive problems that have plagued us and will continue to be a hindrance in our development as a nation-state. It forces us to talk, as is the objective of the upcoming reconciliation conference, although I personally have not an ounce of confidence in that particular conference simply because it is being ran by the Ethiopians. The talks I hint at and the dialogue I argue in favor of must come from Somalis and be managed by Somalis, such is happening between you and I. We as Somalis must first reconcile as a people, address our long-standing internal problems, and only then will we be able to permanently grasp our destiny by its hands, campaign for Ethiopian withdrawal, and say "NO THANK YOU" when the departed Ethiopians surely entertain the idea of arming our people against each other again and playing the game they have played throughout the existence of our civil war.

 

Otherwise, Ethiopia will never completely abandon our affairs, and with their leaving of our country without that aforementioned dialogue ensuing, I am doubly sure we will not escape regressing back into the civil war that we have been unfortunately accustomed to for the past 16 years. We will surely start eyeing each other as the hungry hyenas we have been throughout our civil war and Ethiopia will not hesitate in once again taking advantage of the situation by giving us the means to finish each other off. I regret this is not apparent to you.

[Gabbal]

d/p

[rudy-Diiriye]

i told u so! that they were here to stay... but u didnt listen.

 

watch, what happens, juba and shebeli rivers will become red with blood of mascared somali..!

 

this is a revenge thing... some folks just wanna kill innocent somalis cuz they believe they were done wrong...!

 

its calculating move!! cuz the colabrators will blame the amxaaro and try to wash their hands...! word.

 

very dumb move.

[Janagale_bi-idnilah]

HORN, your argument is understood N well explained, however Ethiopia's interest in Somalia is simple, which is security and economy. REMEMBER, Zenawi and his Tegray Boys took over Miguste through Somalia..I mean they were funded and armed by the military regime in Somalia and U.S. IF the Etho's leave know, YES THEY WILL BE A POWER VACUUM IN SOUTHERN SOMALIA..those who think it will not then make a case for your argument....After all, I can assure you tribal conquest and Indhocadde Boys will reemerge once again, N everything will start from scratch. The solution forward is to allow the 8,000 AMISOM troops to come in Somalia N after 6 months be replaced by 20, 000 U.N troops to keep the peace and some train our arm forces. Once their is the U.N troops in Somalia, only then COMES THE END to the Ethiopian's influence in Somalia.....

[Castro]

Because of the Ethiopian occupation, not only is international scrutiny preventing Ethiopia from arming us inorder to carry out clan warfare

but it also gives us, Somalis, an

opportunity

to reflect and reevaluate our present circumstances and try to find lasting solutions to the divisive problems that have plagued us and will continue to be a hindrance in our development as a nation-state.

I don't know where you've undergone your indoctrination but nothing is preventing Ethiopia from doing what it wants. As we speak it is arming and training a "national army" to use Somalis to kill other Somalis. Compare this to the 1990's and the only difference would be one group wearing a uniform. Furthermore, the "international scrutiny" will not lift the occupation but a resistance will. Occupiers sooner or later realize the value gained by the occupation is not worth its costs. It works the same in every case. The "legitimacy" Ethiopia has is bestowed upon it by the United States' war of terror and its rubber stamp, the UN. Neither Ethiopia nor its stooges have any other legitimacy in Somalia. The failure of the past umpteen attempts of forming a national government can all be traced back to Ethiopia. Couple that with the secessionist and autonomous movements it breast feeds and you had only the South of Somalia that it didn't fully control. Now, even that has been invaded and occupied. Three regions and three mini-colonies in addition to the other colonized lands of Somalis and you want us to praise the Ethiopians for bringing peace? Perhaps you mistook appease for peace.

 

It forces us to talk, as is the objective of the upcoming reconciliation conference, although

I personally have not an ounce of confidence in that particular conference simply because it is being ran by the Ethiopians.

Saaxib, now you're talking from both sides of your mouth. The whole bloody country, not just this conference, is run by Ethiopia: from Saylac to Ras Kamboni and everywhere in between. If you can understand this simple fact, you will have little problem seeing Ethiopia's invasion and occupation not as an "opportunity" but for what they really are.

 

Habeen Wanaagsan

[Gabbal]

Janagale, forgive me if I do not share some of your sentiments. I have never been a supporter of foreign intervention, in fact have always been violently opposed to them, but because they are here today I cannot help but make the most out of the sad situation. There is an opportunity in everything, the opportunity that lies in the unfortunate and pitiful affairs of Somalia today is this; that this is the first time since the beginning of the civil war that we are all equal and our guns will not necessarily decide the future of the nation. All I ask is "why not take advantage of this opportunity to do some house cleaning and then turn around, united as can be, and kick Xabashi butt (pardon the language) as is our heritage?"

[Gabbal]

Castro, you have become a loophole lawyer my friend. I think I have argued my position well and it is tiring arguing more then I have already done so. You simply cannot make a person see that which they do not want to, so I think it is in our mutual interest if we agree to disagree. Although, I do not see what we have disagreed about. We both want the Ethiopians to leave, but you want them prematurely now and without having grown from the situation and I want them after we have used them to unite us.

 

I know Somalia. I know its smells, sights, sounds, and its politics. I know what is in store if left to our own devices and I pray that it never occurs, at least in our present condition.

 

Nabad galyo

[Fabregas]

Quote:We both want the Ethiopians to leave, but you want them prematurely now and without having grown from the situation and I want them after we have used them to unite us.

 

 

How can we use them to "unite" us?

[N.O.R.F]

We both want the Ethiopians to leave, but you want them prematurely now and without having grown from the situation and I want them after we have used them to unite us.

LoooL, what great 'nationalism' 'ey?