Yey : Dadka Madaafiic ayaa lagu garaacayaa...

[me]

Hmmmmmm, well Baashi said it like it is.

 

 

@ caqli u baahane

[Kashafa]

TFG is one faction of this civil strife. It is more inclusive than the other. The conflict is no longer about Islam nor is it about nationalism

A few months ago when the TFG and the ICU were lined up on the battlefield and the conflict was an idealogical one: Will the country be ruled with Islam or will a warlord-made goverenment be allowed to impose its will on Somalia thanks to Etho-American might, you waffled(and I'm being generous here). In essence, it looked like you were saying that you supported the ICU in principle and spirit, but practicalities forced your hand, and you couldn't commit to them all the way. Now, the conflict has taken on a clan-war flavor, again thanks to the TFG, yet you want peace to come at their terms ?

 

There's a reason why diverse people keep on attacking your 'neutrality' position: it's bogus. There simply can be no ambivalence in a situation like this. I don't doubt that you're being sincere in your reasoning, but it's your flawed reasoning that's damning you to the TFG side and the Etho occupation, along with whatever civilian disasters that happen, like it or not. All because of your default position of not appreciating the enormity of what happened here: Invading Ethiopian troops fighting side by side by an unelected unrecognised goverment composed of warlords. That's the pink elephant in the room, as soon as we come to terms on that, everything else will(can) fall in place or be negotiated.

 

Ka gudub. You say you want to foucs on the issues, fine. I'd like to hear your plan that will get Ethiopian troops out of Somalia in short order. That's the only way peace can even be contemplated at this point. Any Ethiopian or foreign troops staying for a protracted period of time won't be accepted by any of the parties in the now muddied water.

 

If you're familiar with American history, I'm sure you know of the Loyalists that sided with Britain. They too had compelling arguements for peace. However, they ended up fighting side by side with the Brits against their brethern.

 

I wait for your plan.

 

Edit: By the way, no group in Somali history save for Axmed Guray, Sayyid-ka, and now the ICU, can claim the title Mujahid or Jihad. The USC, the SNM, SSDF, the SPM, the XYZ, the JVA were tribal in nature and predominately, if not exclusively secular. Just wanted to clear that up.

[Fanisha]

Originally posted by Pi:

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other.

 

Purely for purposes of acquaintence. Marka Eedo mind your own buisenss. Hadaad cay doonayso, let me know. I'll entertain you with vulgarities.

[/b]

So you're asking about his subclan because God says so? Hypocricy has no bounds, it seems. Come off it, and be the clansmen daba-dhilif you are, and be proud.

 

As for vulagarities, they are your fingerprints and footsteps, I wouldn't want you to go against your nature. There is something in the Quran about instinct, why don't you dig it up and defile it the way you did with the other verse?

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Kashafa:

Invading Ethiopian troops fighting side by side by an unelected unrecognised goverment composed of warlords. That's the pink elephant in the room, as soon as we come to terms on that, everything else will(can) fall in place or be negotiated.

Is your real objection to the Ethiopians or the TFG itself? If it is only the Ethiopians - then if they leave tomorrow - will you support the TFG?

 

Or if your real objection is to the TFG itself and the Ethiopians are just a convenient durbaan - then what process do you have in mind to build a government?

[Baashi]

You seem to believe in absolutes. I don't. I supported the ICU in principle. That's long and short of it. I didn't supported IndhaCadde and his gung-*** approach. No sire. I don't considered him and his likes as someone I can share a political platform.

 

I was for negotiated settlement from the get-go. My posts are on the record. I urged the ICU to take the initiative while they have the political and military advantages. They didn't. They heeded the advice of your likes who like to jump up and down and beat his chest like a chimp from a safe distance.

 

Theirs was no Jihad. It was blunder in first order. You wanna call that Jihad be my guest. Don't you dwell on who I'm or what kinda guy I am. Deal with the issues kidos. My nuetrality stands tall. Your violence is suicidal with no end. I want to rescue what's left of Somalia. You want a war you are not willing to fight.

 

The ICU made the TFG what it is today. They were nothing prior the ICU unnecessary and impatient war. They are a diplomatically established power with the backing of powers that be!!!!!!!

 

I'm clear on this. I don't support the insurgency. I don't support the TFG's approach in dealing with the insurgency. I support anyone who wants united, inclusive, just and stable Somalia under Sharia. Be it ICU or BNHGYU doesn't matter what name they call themselves of.

 

In regards of my plan...here is the deal kidos. You promise to take me on the substance of the outline I'm about to draw. No personal attacks! No name-calling. Civility all around. Can you manage that buddy. Did I hear yeah! Super. Will come back Insha'Allah.

 

Wishper that bit to Kaligii Muslim madax faluuq ina Shido.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Baashi:

You seem to believe in absolutes. I don't.

I think that's the long and short of all the disagreements and debates in SOL at least. Many people see Somali politics in black and white - and simply brush off or dismiss items that don't correspond to this world view. And worse - these same people cannot acknowledge that others might believe the white to their black or vice versa rightly or wrongly. A wise man would recognize this latter fact and work for an amalgamated gray to suit all sides. This is politics after all.

[AYOUB]

Originally posted by Baashi:

I never supported the secessionists. Why would I wanna do that. I never supported the mitiry junta that ruled the country either. I don't support the TFG.

Baashi you've changed "I didn't support the TFG either." to "I don't support the TFG", I wonder why? That was then, this is NOW baa? What shall we make of the supplications you used to make for Yey, are you neutralising them too?

The issue here your ill-judged attempt to side-track Xiin just because he chooses not to support TFG or be "neutral" like yourself. You were pro- TFG no doubt about it and the regulars of this section know it. You claimed being pro ICU till (and just like Duke and HornAfrique) the crunch time when your discovered "neutrality". Judging from your comments in this very thread, you ain't no pacifist B. You knew whom and what ICU were and what they stood for. What made you turn "neutral"? C'mon be honest with us B. Just like Duke and HornAfrique, you switched when things you hold dearer were at stake. I'M LYING?

 

You keep attempting to change the topic to SNM. Well General Morgan is among the people bombing Xamar today ain't he? I thank the Almighty for the boys who kicked him out of my yard. No NEUTRALITY about that. No foreign troops and no more bombardment of innocent civilians over there. Don't try to change history either. It was the likes of General Morgan who were hiding among civilians before being finally kicked out not the other way round. SNM were being forced to surrender by the Ethios in 1988 unlike the TFG. I don't expect your "neutrality" to see it as it is/was. If you're blaming the TFG shelling of civilians on insurgents, i've no hope of you being accurate on events that took place 20 years ago.

[Abu-Salman]

Apart from the moral viewpoint one may take against secular warlords and their associated opportunist politicians hosting a "Somali reconciliation process" in the shade of Ethiopian tanks or wether some may excuse the whole farce in the name of "pragmatism", it seems clear that several current issues raise legitimate questions that can only be overlooked thanks to our all too common clannish vindictness:

 

A- The Conference Issue:

 

Apart from the 36 $US millions requested, what does this incongruity of "clans reconciliation" means?

 

Do we have pious muslims and patriots of every single clan being offended of the recurrent "Al Qaeda label" accompanying the US sponsored destruction of a nascent Islamic State via its Ethiopian proxy or "rivals clans fighting each other" (why? where?)?

 

B- The disarmamnent Issue:

 

How could one enforces a selective disarmament between "fighting clans", moreover before their "effective reconciliation", especially when most Somalis view the TFG troops as being mainly composed, wether exaggerately or accurately, of A. Yusuf "nephews"?

 

C- Indiscrimite Firing of Heavy Artilery in Densely populated Areas

 

How could the mortars and tanks fire be justified?

[Kashafa]

Point,

 

At this point, the TFG and the Ethos are one single entity that cannot be divided. You can't differentiate between Zenaawi and Yey/Gheedi, Inc. We all know that. You know that. If the Ethos left this very second, they would be leaving behind a proxy government. By virtue of this invasion, anybody that stood/stands with the Etho is an Ethiopian by association. That's the principle. Now we come to the practicality: What to do ? I will never recognise this unelected sham of a government composed of men with blood on their hands, but they're there and must be dealt with. How ? There are two options: a) force and an insurgency where the aim is to reverse the gains made by the Etho-led TFG or b) negotiations, where the Islamists are fully incorporated in a newly-convened government with Islamic Sharia being the undisputed law of the land, and all warlords being subject to it, while the Shabaab/Courts still maintain their miltary structure to keep the newly-formed government in check, so that a Siad Barre secular strongman type doesn't emerge. Kinda like the role of the military in Turkey. I am man enough to say that I don't know which path is the right one to take, since the ground conditions are so murky now, but then again, what you're asking me is an hypothetical unrealistic question. The Ethos leave = bye-bye TFG. It will self-collapse without one gunshot.

 

As far as the process to make up a government, I envision a United Islamic Somalia, but that is a long-term process. In the meantime, hopefully all reigons of Somalia will be able to marginalise men with blood in their hands and render them ineffective like the ICU did in Moga. All it takes is for good strong men to rise up and challenge the prevalent power structure of their community, the groundwork is already there. People all across Somalia instinctively trust the 'wadaads'. Throughout the civil war and even out here in the Diaspora, they have proven time and again, that they're the only Somalis that can bridge our differences. Change is a-foot, I say. Hope that answers your Q.

 

About the absolute'ism charge. Do you have some non-negotiable values/principles or is it all relative ? See, you're as an absolutist as I am when push comes to shove. Point proven.

 

Baashi,

 

You're catchin' feelings, dawg. Keep in mind that I'm critising your 'neutrality' position, and not you, your motives, or your values. I still maintain that your 'neutrality' position is built on shaky ground, assailable from many angles. I'll address that and your mismash criticism of the ICU in another thread. For the millionth time, Indhocade is not a reason to jump ship straight into the TFG's lap(I know you don't intend to support them, but thats where you land with your approach. ka gudub). The popular Indhocade Fallacy needs it own thread.

 

Sure. I agree to your ground rules. Notice I'm conversing with you and The Point differently than I am with other nomads(who are begging to be lampooned) Respect gets respect.

 

Let's see a plan.

[Jaylaani]

Originally posted by General Duke:

Xiin is getting alarmed all of a sudeen.

The group he supported is more interested in fighting a PUNTLAND invasion and not so interested in his enemy Ethiopia...

So you agree Butland invaded Xamar?

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Kashafa:

Point,

 

About the absolute'ism charge. Do you have some non-negotiable values/principles or is it all relative ? See, you're as an absolutist as I am when

push comes to shove. Point proven.

 

Interesting arguments overall. About the only thing I'm absolute on is the fundamentals of Islam as confirmed by learned scholars and that is only because I believe it emanates from God directly.

 

To label the ever-changing, contradictory, shady and opportunistic Somali political scene as push comes to shove doesn't make much sense to me. But I guess that is a matter of opinion.

[xiinfaniin]

Asks ThePoint:

 

1- If the Ethiopians leave en masse next week - will the violence suddenly end - and if not how do you deal with it? ie. given an intractable intransigence on the part of some people how do you go about building a government?

 

Adeer Ethiopia is an enemy state in many circles of Somali society. Its presence did not help. In fact, it exacerbated our situation. As long Ethiopia is on our soil, people will find very hard to swallow their religious pride and national conscious and support this tfg. Ethiopia must go. Simple.

 

As for what to do with anarchist amongst us whom the absence of governance benefited them and want the country to stay lawless, even after Ethiopia leaves, I think icu’s rise to power and how it managed to subdue such folks is a great example to follow. People want peace and stability. The days when moor-yaani-sm was fashionable are over. Thusly I don’t think dealing with thugs and isbaaro-profeeters is an insurmountable challenge, or warrants Ethiopian intervention. Midda kale, you need to realize that those of us who oppose Ethiopia’s meddling do so out of conviction that Ethiopia is not there to help us. It’s there, we believe, to further its interest. Ethiopian interests, we hold, are diametrically opposed to ours in the region. So the notion that asserts an abrupt Ethiopian withdrawal hurts our goal to stabilize our country and erect our state is bogus. It just doesn’t add up to make a political sense.

 

2- What are the parameters of this negotiated settlement to be arrived at the national reconciliation meeting that will, in your mind, lead to a lasting peace? What is the (realistic) grand bargain to be arrived at to establish a functioning government in Somalia?

 

After securing complete Ethiopian withdrawal, the great bargain, as you put it, is not difficult to envision. Real reconciliation conference mainly owned by Somalis and held inside the country should attempt to achieve two things.

 

1- The current form and the composition of tfg must be bended to reflect political organizations/allegiance--- religious, tribal or otherwise. If it was on the interest of Somalia’s peace and stability that allowed full time warlords and known murderers to participate—nay lead—our political bodies, it’s only fair to demand unconditional and equal participation for our Islamist leaders. Yes, you hear me right. I want the Aways’s and Turk’s of Somalia get a respectable seat in our national gatherings. Why not?

 

2- Complete reversal of civil war gains--- properties, farms, and towns must be returned to their rightful owners. At minimum, the process to exact that overdue justice need be agreed.

[XOG-ogaal]

it’s only fair to demand unconditional and equal participation for our Islamist leaders. Yes, you hear me right. I want the Aways’s and Turk’s of Somalia get a respectable seat in our national gatherings. Why not?

 

2- Complete reversal of civil war gains--- properties, farms, and towns must be returned to their rightful owners. At minimum, the process to exact that overdue justice need be agreed.

 

 

yaa xiin war aa haysaa maa dhahdid I think YeY wants his beero and more back

[Taleexi]

Like it or not guys. Somali balkanization is in the making. Our enemies in general and Ethiopia in particular have got at least something that puts smiles on their faces.

 

The way I see, Ethiopia is unlikely to leave any time soon if it ever does, is also a legit question that one may ask. Let us face it, we still owe too much debt to then ICU with all their bullshits and fallacies in terms of not playing well the cards in the real politik.

 

With that said, IF even Ethiopians leave in the near future, it is highly unlikely, based on the facts on the ground, that Mogadishu will come back to normalcy because clan and islamic militias are intermingled than ever. This effort may now look sexy but conflict of interest will surface eventually when or if victory comes to their side.

 

On all accounts, it is too early to celebrate on any outcome given in the current Somali political discourse.

[ElPunto]

^Well argued overall Xiin. Though I've never understood the zero sum game vis-a-vis Ethiopia. Once upon a time the French felt the same about the Germans and now the two are the main engine of the EU. I wonder if that was acheived on both sides by a Xiin-like attitude

 

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

As for what to do with anarchist amongst us whom the absence of governance benefited them and want the country to stay lawless, even after Ethiopia leaves, I think icu’s rise to power and how it managed to subdue such folks is a great example to follow. People want peace and stability. The days when moor-yaani-sm was fashionable are over. Thusly I don’t think dealing with thugs and isbaaro-profeeters is an insurmountable challenge, or warrants Ethiopian intervention.

Adeer - I think you're minimizing this particular issue. All it takes is one guy to pick up an Ak-47 and randomly fire on a daily basis to ensure continued insecurity. And the reflexive recourse is to resort to violence if one person or a group is unhappy. What does one do then?

 

After securing complete Ethiopian withdrawal, the great bargain, as you put it, is not difficult to envision. Real reconciliation conference mainly owned by Somalis and held inside the country should attempt to achieve two things.

 

1- The current form and the composition of tfg must be bended to reflect political organizations/allegiance--- religious, tribal or otherwise. If it was on the interest of Somalia’s peace and stability that allowed full time warlords and known murderers to participate—nay lead—our political bodies, it’s only fair to demand unconditional and equal participation for our Islamist leaders. Yes, you hear me right. I want the Aways’s and Turk’s of Somalia get a respectable seat in our national gatherings. Why not?

I think your latter point is fairly reasonable. But if Somalia is to get help from the rest of the world(financially, diplomatically etc) that we sorely need - you have to play ball. The US(and by extension the rest of the world) will not support the inclusion of an Aweys in a federal government. Perhaps the Shariif can fill in for him . I don't know - but certain players cannot, in all reality, play a real role in the federal government.

 

I will say this: when the ICU was in the stronger position - Aweys did not feel the need to negotiate and then launched his attack on Baidoa. I'm not sure that he should be rewarded with a govt post - can't see him doing the same thing if the situation was reversed . But, then again, scorched earth policy is unwise in the longer term. Better to embrace your enemy in an agreed upon framework.

 

2- Complete reversal of civil war gains--- properties, farms, and towns must be returned to their rightful owners. At minimum, the process to exact that overdue justice need be agreed.

Ahh - this strikes me more as wishful thinking adeer. What a hairy knot to untangle. It is almost hopeless and will take many years. At this point - they can only pay lip service.

 

And it is not surprising that the vast majority of the violence in Somalia keeps occurring in and around Mog where the quantities of looted riches is the greatest. The decades of violence and the jockeying for and desire to legitimize loot is not unlinked. Which brings me back to my first point. How do you deal with those whose vested(and I mean well vested) interests is in opposing any authority that will challenge them?