Somalia: Federal states of Somalia. But which of the two tracks?

[BN]

Originally posted by Samurai Warrior:

Bari_Nomad, you mentioned attaining greater Somalia through peaceful means, could you elaborate as to how please if you do not mind my asking?

Samurai,

We tried the military solution in 1977 and it had very bad consequences for Somalia. Not to mention the civil war Somalis have gone through. I am not in any hurry to get into another war. I would like to ask you, if Somalia had not invaded Ethiopia in 1977 and had the civil war not erupted, what do you think would have happened with the Ogaden? The Ethiopian government was overthrown(1991) by rebel groups, EPLF and TPLF(which we aided) we could have repeated what happened in Eritrea in the Ogaden. What do you think?

 

 

Originally posted by GarYaQaaN:

 

People PLEASE stick to the subject! This thread is about Federalism in Somalia...have your juvenile squabblings somewhere else :rolleyes: Thanks Admin

 

Couldn't of said it better myself. God knows there are enough of those posts...

 

Incase anyone is interested this is the title of this thread:

 

Somalia: Federal states of Somalia. But which of the two tracks? :rolleyes:

 

I would like to see these constitutions…so where could I find a copy?

I got these links from Hiiraan.com If there are other's versions please post the links.

 

http://www.hiiraan.com/htdocs/2003/june03/finaldraft.htm#01

http://www.hiiraan.com/htdocs/2003/june03/constitution.htm#3

 

This is an article about the differences between the two. I don't know who wrote it or with what biases.

 

http://www.hiiraan.com/htdocs/2003/june03/differences.htm

 

It seems they both call for a federal government but differ in time lines. If the article above is correct then it would seem the Harmonization committee's charter is the better choice. Please read both and tell me What do ya'll think?

[Dhimbil]

If the article above is correct then it would seem the Harmonization committee's charter is the better choice.

Yeah, i like the Harmonizaion committee's charter, but i have a hanch the leadership one will be adapted because the worldlords are freaken powerfull and they have the backin of kufr Ethopia :mad:

 

adios

[Gediid]

Illmatic said

 

Yeah, i like the Harmonizaion committee's charter, but i have a hanch the leadership one will be adapted because the worldlords are freaken powerfull and

they have the backin of kufr Ethopia

Question:

What's Kenya,aren't they KUFRS as well.I bet there are more Muslim Ethiopians then Muslim Kenyans.Anyways thats not my whole point but in case you wondering both nations are different sides of the same coin.They both have "plans".

[Dhimbil]

Gadiid

 

Religious beliefs is not the issue brother, but rather political interest. While i agree with you they are both foreigners and may have their own interest, Ethopia is openly supporting one worldlord or another and terrorizing vulnerable somalis in Ethopia and somalia. Ethopia is the only country in Africa openly asking the U.S for help inorder for them to go inside somalia and elaminate terror. Whils numerouis agencies and journalist went to Somalia and found no terror groubs. kenya on the other hand, have remained atleast publicly, neutral in somali politics. I think Kenya should be pressured in treating somalis in their country better, but they haven't done major damages to somalis in Somalia unlike Kufr Ethopia :mad: .

 

Besides my beef is with Ethopian government not the population as they are being held hostage my tigre brutal dictator, there are many Ethopian exiles who left their country of dictator policies. Also, Muslims there have been sidelined by habashi before and tigrea now, they have absolutely no political power, for example oromia and ogadenia et. While muslims in Kenya are in far better conditions.

 

About Kufr issue, that is reserved for any nonmuslims whether they be in Kenya or Ethopia, but personally i use it for extremest Christian governments like Ethopia.

[miles-militis]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Back from a brief getaway to find the twist of the debate being so vulgarly decompossed by crude analysis of irrelevant factors on the peripheral concepts of no importance at least to the subject matter, dynamic yet impertinent, which neither add value nor quality to the content of the discussion. Despite the egotistic drivel by some and infantile bickering by others, I wish to thank the few who tried to keep the discussion on track. Now, let us see if we could steer the boat back on to civil waters.

 

I strongly believe as many have pointed out that a federal system of government consummated on the spot and by the end of the meeting is the only practical way to resuscitate the ailing spirit of the nation, and as such the right decision has been taken. This takes into account the decade old gridlock and political stalemate, lack of cohesion amongst leaders, and failure to share power, failure by the elite (scholars and autocrats) in sharing the leadership role with the leaders, or removing the power from their hands at least as is the case in Banadir and its environs, passiveness on the part of the Isims who played their role in diluting the cultural hierarchy in valuing material objects (money in their case) than cultural and societal wellbeing not understanding the detrimental nature of their deeds all at the expense of the ordinary person. This is also the overriding argument presented by those with the foresight to put such proposal on the table, and in the end it has been concurred that the federal system and a whopping 450 MPs will constitute the future government of Somalia.

 

Illmatic – I share the highlighted ambiguity at the state level of the prospective relations trade or otherwise between states, or states with foreign territories. It is not defined because it is deemed un-chartered waters to which implications none of the participants of the conference are privy, and is a process in motion or in progress along the lines of “will cross the bridge when I come to it” philosophy: a rather reactive mode of thinking if you will. Surely it will pose problems for a society like ours which has not produced enough autocrats, and will usher in a host of unforeseen particulars by itself. But there is also the advantage of developing and building as you go along considering circumstances and conditions on the ground which I trust suits the nature of the Somali conflict. Imposing grand ideas of textbook material is far more debilitating than adopting a locally cultivated and culturally adequate mode of governance fraught with its own ambiguities, uncertainties and of course problems.

 

Dantay1 - Nothing I thinks is impossible so long as one keeps open-mind and sees the process as an ongoing, fluid one rather than morphemic morbid written on a slate as if inferred from the Holly Book. It is a human made systems erroneous in nature ridden with its own blemishes, flaws, and imperfections.

 

Bari_Nomad – I read all three prior to the the discussion being commenced. Sorry if you obtain one late.

 

And at that I reckon we could put this baby to rest.

 

Perhaps now we could address the issues of: who should elect the parliament? Traditional Isims or the leaders? And on the same stroke, we could also study the issue of “war criminals” each under a separate thread.

 

Again thank you for your contributions.

 

So long!

[Coloow]

Samurai warrior since you posted this thread, I have had the opportunity to read the two drafts. I have read the old constitution from 1960, and the one which was drafted in Djibouti.

 

I remember also someone lamenting in the late eighties about somalia having the best constitution on paper. and these two actually look promising on paper saaxib.

 

Nonetheless our history has shown that we don't have any respect for laws that are written on paper or even divine laws of the almighty..hence my sceptism.

 

Even though you or some others may differ, I still see warlords wanting to become a president. In my opinion the issue at hand is a recognition of the atrocities saaxib. They have already explored so called reconcialation. I think it is time somalis explore past mistakes and heal the wounds of many..because at the end of the day it is about trust- and very few people trust warlords.

 

You may recall the djibouti conference , somalis everywhere were in exctance- hoping that we have finally made progress and the result is what we see today. Infact, if my memory serves me well things were better in terms of number of deaths before the djibouti conference.

 

Insha allah my hope is that this conference would achieve everlasting peace but my brain says otherwise.

 

Anyway back to your question of how we elect a parliament: I believe that we don't need a central parliament or ministers because as we know they would be based on tribalism- which has caused as much harm. Somalia is not suffering because of lack of parliament. I think what we need is a bottom up approach whereby every region elects its own leaders. and we need a strong president..... an idealist.... a man who is not a product of former governments.

 

A bold suggestion: why don't we do like the Tchez and choose Nuradiin faarah, the somali novalist?

 

Macaslaama

[Gabbal]

It's good to be Back.

 

Xassan Nasra Allah it's sad to see you go brother.

[Baashi]

Samurai Warrior,

On the parliament: since ‘we’ were rendered irrelevant by the sheer tenacity of warlords and their determination to get a piece of the pie, I say let’s put their political monopoly in check by empowering the issimada. Elders should be the ones who are entrusted this power. The problem would be who are the ‘true’ recognized elders. It seems that itself could become a thorny issue.

 

Let me put my kumi:

There is choice we are making here or rather warlords and co. are making for us. It is true that majority of the individuals congregating in this conference are criminals. As some of you may know there are no many other opportunities left to get the reconciliation effort moving. It seems to me that the delegates are the ones who benefited the civil war, committed untold heinous crimes, and bickered how to share power…much too long. They don’t have our consent or support yet they are powerful enough to disrupt peace. In addition to that there is no other organized political or military group ready to challenge them. Two most likely groups were ikhwan and traditional issimo…and they’ve been naturalized. That being the case I don’t see any other option but hold our breath and wait the outcome of this one…and wish all the best. Besides they need to be mediated as they are the ones who have been bickering all along.

 

I haven’t read the two charters bari_nomad posted (I was enjoying the wkend), nevertheless I can assure u that any document in which its central tenet is based on Tribalism is bound for failure…Allah forbid. This tenet now enshrined in our future constitution will reinforce the existing culture of entitlement and nepotism. As before, justice will require political support. As before, loyalty to clan will take precedent over national allegiance. We should have learned the mistakes we’d made in previous governments instead we are repeating it. I’m very disappointed nomad!

 

Entrepreneur,

I challenge u to picture us a scenario in which these warlords can be brought before justice. I for one agree that they deserve to be tried but I say our inability, unwillingness, lack of institutions with such capacity, and whole gamut of other reasons compelled us to swallow our pride for now and look Ethiopia, Kenya, and international community for help…to mediate us. You agree with me, I assume, Ethiopia/Kenya won’t help us on this one by opening their courts for our problems. Unlike Liberia, it is not one leader, or two, or three…it is much more complicated than that. Unlike Rwanda, ours is not stable enough to ponder on such moral questions. There will always be tomorrow, and we will nail them tomorrow, one day they will be dealt with. We are not the first country that descended so low and we won’t be the last one. The history is full of examples. What we need is to get the process moving…we can perfected it later when it is convenient.

[Coloow]

Baashi bro, it is a difficult thing specially when somalis see things through the binoculars of qabiilism.

 

I wanted to introduce a thread on a mock indictment of some somali warlords held at havard in boston..but on a second thought I refrained.

 

You are right kenya and ethiopia wants us to kill each other..thus no help.

 

Marka xaalada fudud ma aha sxb.

 

 

We need somalis who are brave enough to report their kins...and during my short stopover in these forums that is just a dream.

smart enough not to shield crimes against somalis.

[Baashi]

Entrepreneur,

Sxb introduce the thread. Just do it ...don't let others dictate or impair ur judgemenet. I trust it is very interesting stuff.

[Deeq A.]

What is going on here?

 

How many times do we have to make it clear for the nomads here to stop using derogatory qabiil names like "faqaaash , iidooor and mooryaaan " on the forums.

 

How many times do we tell you nomads that we absolutely don't accept the mentioning of any qabiil name?

 

Why can't the nomads here get their points across without insulting each other or resorting back to namecalling or without indirect personal attacks to belittle each other?

 

This is a serious matter. Please respect the rules of the website.

 

No personal attacks

No qabiil talk

No profanity/vulgarity

 

 

Please debate the issues with civility.