Memorial for the First SNM Shahiid in 1983

[Jacaylbaro]

You are avoiding to answer my question sxb ,,,, here it is again:

 

Can you tell me when the SNM changed its leadership from Siilaanyo to Abdirahman Tuur ?? just tell me the date and the location without giving Aayatullah speech

[N.O.R.F]

Me,

 

Thats why i dont take your stance seriously. The SNM killed people and was a very sad thing to do. I will never claim otherwise. But you on the other hand are simply telling porkies saxib.

 

Can the bombardment of Hargaisa be classed as killing innocents?

[me]

Whats the point of that? its irrelevant to the subjects we are discussing.

 

We are discussing whether or not the SNM was defeated and the evidence is against you saaxiib.

 

1. There are official documents that indicate that the SNM was defeated.

2. A sesessionist leader claims the SNM was defeated.

 

So what do Siilaanyo and Cabdiraxmaan tuur got to do with our discussion unless your blaming Siilaanyo for the defeat.

[me]

Originally posted by Northerner:

Me,

 

Thats why i dont take your stance seriously. The SNM killed people and was a very sad thing to do. I will never claim otherwise. But you on the other hand are simply telling porkies saxib.

 

Can the bombardment of Hargaisa be classed as killing innocents?

Saxiib the SNA never practiced targeted killings, the SNM did practice targeted killings of innocent civillians and remmember it was the SNM that your defending that attacked the cities and put the innnocent civilians in harms way. The SNM brought death and destruction to Hargeysa and Burco not the SNA.

[Jacaylbaro]

Just answer the question sxb ,, it is related to the topic and i'll tell you.

 

Or simply admit you don't know ... it is not a hard thing to say.

[N.O.R.F]

Following the ****** war, the Barre regime violently suppressed opposition movements and ethnic groups, particularly the ***** clan in the northern region, using the military and elite security forces to quash any hint of rebellion. By the 1980s, an all-out civil war developed in Somalia. Opposition groups began to form following the end of the ****** war, beginning in 1979 with a group of dissatisfied army officers known as the Somali Salvation Democratic Front (SSDF). In 1981, as a result of increased northern discontent with the Barre regime, the Somali National Movement (SNM), composed mainly of the ***** clan, was formed in Hargeisa with the stated goal of overthrowing of the Barre regime. In January 1989, the United Somali Congress (USC), an opposition group of Somalis from the ****** clan, was formed as a political movement in Rome. A military wing of the USC was formed in Ethiopia in late 1989 under the leadership of Mohamed Farah "Aideed," a former political prisoner imprisoned by Barre from 1969-75. Aideed also formed alliances with other opposition groups, including the SNM and the Somali Patriotic Movement (SPM), an ******* sub-clan force under Colonel Ahmed Omar Jess in the Bakool and Bay regions of Southern Somalia.

In 1988, at the President's order, aircraft from the Somali National Air Force bombed the city of Hargeisa in northwestern Somalia, the former capital of British Somaliland, killing nearly 10,000 civilians and insurgents.

The warfare in the northwest sped up the decay already evident elsewhere in the republic. Economic crisis, brought on by the cost of anti-insurgency activities, caused further hardship as Siad Barre and his cronies looted the national treasury.

By the end of the 1980s, armed opposition to Barre’s government, fully operational in the northern regions, had spread to the central and southern regions. Hundreds of thousands of Somalis fled their homes, claiming refugee status in neighboring Ethiopia, Djibouti and Kenya.

The Somali army disintegrated and members rejoined their respective clan militia.

Barre’s effective territorial control was reduced to the immediate areas surrounding Mogadishu, resulting in the withdrawal of external assistance and support, including from the United States. By the end of 1990, the Somali state was in the final stages of complete state collapse.

In the first week of December 1990, Barre declared a state of emergency as USC and SNM forces advanced toward Mogadishu.

In January 1991, armed opposition factions drove Barre out of power, resulting in the complete collapse of the central government. Barre later died in exile in Nigeria. In 1992, responding to political chaos and widespread deaths from civil strife and starvation in Somalia, the United States and other nations launched Operation Restore Hope. Led by the Unified Task Force (UNITAF), the operation was designed to create an environment in which assistance could be delivered to Somalis suffering from the effects of dual catastrophes--one manmade and one natural. UNITAF was followed by the United Nations Operation in Somalia (UNOSOM). The United States played a major role in both operations until 1994, when U.S. forces withdrew.

source

 

So where is this defeat? :confused:

[N.O.R.F]

For the past 20 years, Somali president Mohamed Siad Barre has presided over a one-party military dictatorship. His reign has been characterized by vicious discrimination against certain ethnic groups -- currently the ****** in northern Somalia --

as well as political imprisonment, torture and summary executions

, in an effort to suppress all dissent in Somalia.

A long-simmering war in northern Somalia between the Somali National Movement ("SNM") and government forces erupted in May 1988 when the SNM launched military operations from Ethiopia. The army responded with a savage counterinsurgency campaign. Throughout the rest of 1988 and 1989, the Somali armed forces engaged in extensive efforts to deprive the SNM of civilian support -- members of the ***** clan make up most SNM combatants -- by driving ***** noncombatants from the country through such means as

indiscriminate aerial bombardment, the widespread killings of civilians, the destruction of crops, cattle and food-storage facilities, the poisoning of wells, and the jailing of hundreds of political prisoners.

Some 450,000 Somalis fled such attacks for Ethiopia, Djibouti and Kenya, and an additional 600,000 were displaced within Somalia.

source

 

Need I say more?

[me]

The defeat of the SNM at the hands of the SNA is indicated by the documents I provided and the claim by Ina Waraabe that the SNM was defeated.

 

The article that you posted only show that:

 

1. Hargeysa was bombed (we all knew that and I was not denying that)

2. The army disintegrated (hmmm, who was discussing about that)

 

So what has this article that you posted conrtributed to our discussion?

 

In the first week of December 1990, Barre declared a state of emergency as USC and SNM forces advanced toward Mogadishu.

hahahaha , I dont need to respond to that bit. When did the SNM advance to Xamar? now who is telling porkies Norf, me or you?

[me]

Yes Northerner you should say more, your first article shows the lack of knowledge the author had about the Somali conflict by claiming that the SNM advanced towards Xamar

 

Your second article is nothing but baseless accusations, where is HRW basing these claims on? It’s a sensationalist piece if you ask me and it goes in directly against the documents I provided that indicate the pacification of the region and the peaceful return of the civilians. Organizatiosn such as HRW are known for their sensationalist pieces, since its in their interest to shock readers into becoming donors.

[N.O.R.F]

Saxib, its called using information to put forward a case. You know, just like we did at school, college and uni. Try doing the same to prove Barre's regime did not committ such crimes. Your pissing against the wind mate

 

I know you are trying to put a brave face on

 

So, when all is said and done. A report dated Mar 90 which you are using to claim the SNM was defeated (ignoring the fact that a ministirial convoy was attacked in that same report) is made redundent by the US State Dept Somalia Analysis on there website stating the SNM and USC brought about Barre's downfall in late 1990.

 

George Bush also declared victory in Iraq

 

End of the day the report you used proves inconclusive.

[Jacaylbaro]

The guy is still avoiding to say I DON'T KNOW

 

 

He is already feeling a defeat

[me]

North that article your provided claimed that the SNM advanced towards Muqdisho. we are not talking about events that took place 100 years ago, I was present in Xamar in 1991 and I can tell you no SNM to be seen

 

The report that was dated March 1990, the fact that the refugees where returning, their peaceful homecoming and that the SNM was only capable of only hit and run attacks only contribute to the mounting evidence against your case saaxiib.

 

North I expected much more from you saaxiib, you used two weak articles to support your case.

 

1. The first one was written by a misinformed author and didn't contribute to your case.

2. the second was a sensasionalist piece by an organization that is known for exageration in order to get donors.

 

I however have used two credible sources.

 

1. A detailed state department report

2. Ina Waraabe's claim that the secessionists were defeated.

 

Jacaylbaro your question is irrelevant, prove its relevance first only then will I answer it.

[Jacaylbaro]

Fuley waaxid

[me]

[Jacaylbaro]

Ok , lemme kuwaydii another question that you can't avoid :

 

When was the snm defeated exactly ?? ,, i need the date plz