Fait accompli!

[Castro]

Xiinow, give the ICU the two years the TFG has had. If they're as confused, incompetent and sharing a bed with the enemy as the TFG is now, they will have become the 4th or 5th group to do so in the past 15 years.

 

The momentum is on their side now and, granted, their achievements are impressive. Though it is fair to mention at this point that our expectations have been lowered so much, just about any improvement in Somalia is impressive. Can the ICU keep this up for months or years to come? Will they top their achievements so far? Will they be uniters instead of "dividers" ( )? Can they transcend the clan nonsense and remain true to the platform (Islam) they arrived on? Who knows. But you're right, they'r definitely the new kids on the block and they're better than any we've had in decades.

 

The TFG (at least in its current form) is on its way out and the ICU on its way in. Let's meet again in 2 years and revisit this. What are you doing fall of 2008? I'll be wondering which hawk-democrat will replace Dubya.

[Xoogsade]

^ Hey bro this is a good idea. Somali politics are fluid and keep changing. Yesterday's news most often turns out to be false and tomorrow may have a complete surprise in store. So it makes sense to take a break from politics and just visit when major events transpire.

 

Xiinfaniin

 

Waa runtaa, it is not cheap. I wouldn't mind financing your campaign for leadership position if I had the money. We need progressive guys like you saxib who wouldn't accept anything less for themselves and for others.

[Che -Guevara]

Originally posted by Paragon:

^^^ Che check this out...

 

quote:

---

"Boosaaso, Hargeysa, Burco, Gaalkacyo iyo Baydhabo waxay dhex jiifaan webi soo socda" ayuu yiri Sh. Xasan Turki oo ula jeeday in Maxaakiimta ay tegayaan goobahaasi.-

Not my words, but the courts' words. So when I spoke as I did yesterday, I wasn't just talking for the sake of it. Something is coming...we just have to be patient.

 

[EDIT]About the AU's troops to Somalia, the estimated cost is $931m. How the AU gets that amount of money beats me. And if they get that amount, much awaits for these troops within Somalia.

Paragon.....seeing how excited you are, may be you are privy to more classified info.You are right somthing is coming. The Somali masses will have to make choice between Maxaamkiimta, and TFG/IGAD/Warlords. And for our sake, I hope people support the courts as they are best hope for Somalia now. The TFG is essentially cleint of the neighboring states whose only interest is to see Somalia weak and divided. TFG is on its way out and the wadaado have the ball on the court, and must capitalize their recent successes, but they must understand traitors,and enemies of the Somali state can doing everything humanly possible to derail the court's efforts. So, it is extremely important that they seek the support of all Somali people, and make their movement a more inclusive one.

 

As for the socalled peacekeepers, AU forces don't have the means and the ability to sustain any another peace mission. This is just means to divert attention from the success of the courts, and complicate the somali issue even farther.

[ElPunto]

TFG this, ICU that. I just wish every building block of Somali society could focus on their own immediate community before embarking on anything else. Start with yourself, your family, your village, your city, your region. Once that has begun in earnest can further discussions of a broader coming together be embarked upon.

[RedSea]

I will nominate Mr. Xiin under one condition that he comes clean of any association with the term, Puntlander.You can call yourself Las Anoder, or Buhoodle dude or something,but you can't entered my ballot with such.

 

The Point, I agree, but if you try to sweep and clean the dirt sitting in front of your hut,it will accidently spill over to the neighboring home, so yeah it's very small place, so it has to be cleaned at once.

[Taleexi]

Mr. Red Sea then you as well should come out from the closet and call yourself Buroaer rather being somalilander!!... before you utter your word put them through in a rational, test schema

[General Duke]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reducing the whole Islamic Courts to a mafia-like group brought together by clannish and marital connections is beyond conspiracy---it’s like the typical Starbuck talk that I’ve accustomed hearing lately.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well give us the real view point, you have not confirmed nor denied all the points I made. Again you sidestepped the issue.

The reply one gets is peppered with wonderful words placing us in an idealized utopian fantasy world parallel to the one we all inhabit .Apart from the name what are these courts? Who are the power brokers?

 

Xiin, Paragon, Castro and others this is for you…

Again no answer....

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

The Point, I agree, but if you try to sweep and clean the dirt sitting in front of your hut,it will accidently spill over to the neighboring home, so yeah it's very small place, so it has to be cleaned at once.

That is one crappy analogy Mr. Red Sea. With thinking like that - I guess you approve of Bush sweeping in 'democracy' in Iraq.

 

Somalis don't trust other Somalis. Let each group clean up its own region and then present their acheivements.

[xiinfaniin]

The Point, you’re a bit tightlipped . I agree with your building blocks model though unless of course it mimics that of Ethiopia and the UN.

 

Generalow, what answers are you looking for ? What points have you made apart from your wholesale indictment of Mogadishu Islamic Courts? To be frank, what you wrote, my good brother, was irrelevant to the debate we are having (or at least the one I intend to have)! I can’t possibly make the thesis of this thread about discussing who in Islamic Courts leadership belongs to what clan and who’s married to whose daughter! That would be descending of sort---I hope you would agree. Lets not go down that path then saaxiib.

 

You need to understand my point before you hastily refute it: have Islamic Courts brought fundamental changes (political and security) relative to Somalia’s politics?

I say yes. Islamic Courts have altered the politics in the south, as we knew saaxiib. In the first time for some time now, a political entity driven by ideology rather than tribal affiliation succeeded to assume power in one of the most important city in Somalia. Their frame of reference is different than the other dominant functions and political entities; religion vs. secularism. Don’t get me wrong as there are many across Somalia’s different regions who’re fully pregnant with similar ideas, but it’s the Courts who delivered those Islamist (for the lack of a better word) political convictions and gave birth this movement that swept in the south. You can clearly see how the tsunami they caused as it were shook the foundation of that federal project in Baydhabo; names like Ghedi, Aydid, and Qanyare who, not-so-long ago were the object of pride in Mogadishu, are today disowned with fervor; lesser known warlords are humbled or driven and sought refuge in far away regions; Ethiopia and its cronies are made to shiver in the cold as their agenda for Somalia became clear and obvious for all concerned, and above all, IGAD’s unity on Somalia got undermined as a result of realization from its part that something that could fundamentally alter their original plans has happened in Mogadishu. Yesterday the argument of foreign troops had no merit as Mogadishu warlord’s protest lacked credibility. Today Islamic Courts, with their record in Mogadishu, have an undeniable political weight to state their opposition with credence! Yesterday Ethiopia’s interest were sailing virtually unopposed, today it’s struggling to convince the old man, its staunchest supporter, to stay the course (proof: Ethiopian FM spending two nights in dusty Baydhabo)! I could list more points to highlight changes brought by Islamic Courts political or otherwise but I need not state the obvious as I suspect--sophistry aside--that you would nod in agreement with me on most part.

 

What you are not doing though is to speak with a voice not cracked with emotions and to discern facts from unsubstantiated rumors! I am sure you heard me before saying this, but I would say it again, Indhacadde and his likes are a problem for the courts---a problem whose resolution has not come yet. As men of religion they can’t afford to be perceived aiding the aggressor and it will be a lit-mutest for whether they can swim Somalia’s clan invested waters so to speak without muddying own garments with it. But I am still willing to give them benefit of the doubt for two reasons. For one, their alliance with Indhacadde is a one of a military necessity and the reasons that necessitated it are still there; it’s rooted in convenience rather than conviction. Secondly, the issues of Shabeellooyinka and Jubbooyinka predate Islamic Courts and it would be unfair to put its blame on their shoulders. That’s to say that as I was willing to swallow my pride and accept a government of warlords in the hope it may one day succeed and in the realization that some of form of government is better than none, I also am willing to support these Courts with their shortcomings in the conviction that they are better than ones I have seen before, and their mishaps are easier to correct than TFG’s. The first owns its process, mind you, while the latter is someone else’s cat’s-paw and hence my hope this time around is not grounded in vain. Or so I hope!

 

These men are real; lets whisper old man’s ear that useful point.

 

 

Redka, my association with Puntland is twofold: ancestral relationship with the place and a conviction that its political model was the way to go. Theirs has some appealing wisdom; it’s moderation between secessionist’s political snoot and South’s mayhem and political breakdown. Unfortunately, lately Puntland has become the old man’s political tool and I feel like the whole region is used as a down payment for his failed project---TFG. As for you pinning me down as a Buuhoodle boy, you are many miles off , I say.

 

 

Xoogga, thanks for your kind words saaxiib. I think it’s only fair to study current situation and leave the future for the One Who knows it best.

 

Castro, I think your caution as well as that of Che’s are warranted. After all, Somali politics are fluid in nature!

[RedSea]

Originally posted by Mansa Munsa:

Mr. Red Sea then you as well should come out from the closet and call yourself Buroaer rather being somalilander!!... before you utter your word put them through in a rational, test schema

Well,why wouldn't ya? go ahead refer me whatever you like to hear, it's all good to me, except I am not Burcawi,maybe because of clan lineage I am from there,but I was born the city that I displayed at the bottom. So as well off as I was of Xiin's birth place, you are also way off to the right of mind.

[General Duke]

You need to understand my point before you hastily refute it: have Islamic Courts brought fundamental changes (political and security) relative to Somalia’s politics?

No is the answer to both security and politically.

 

Security

The Clan courts have filled the vacume by taking control of Mogadishu. They have replaced the warlords.

The country is not more secure, there is an arms race from Hobyo, Feerfeer, Mogadishu and Bay and Bakool. External arms supply are at an alll time high.

 

Politically they COURTS represent only the armed clans of Mogadishu, the story is the same for the majority of unarmed GROUPS, there is no justice in sight for these broken people. Take for example the many demonstrations in support of the courts in Barava which were left unanswered.

 

Cliques and associations that profited from the warlords era are still standing and have become even stronger. The Banadir company, the Inda Cade gang including Cirfo, Goobanle, Seeraar are still there, occupaying the largest swathes of land this land now is 'Islamic courts controled'.

 

For example while the poor and unarmed groups are neglected when ever the interest of the clan is threatened there is a call for Jihad as in Kismayu. Goobanle and Seeraar come back as representative of the courts

Even Morgan is now in on the act, he has a beard afater all..

As well as the comments made by Xasan Dahir in defence of the lower Shabbele clique.

 

Xiin again tell me who are the courts and please be specefic?

[xiinfaniin]

^^I didn’t hear the Morgan part …that would be interesting though!

 

But come’n Generale, the security of Mogadishu is not remotely near what it was under the rule of warlords! I give you a failing D on that.

 

Politics is bit murky though you’re right but not as foggy as it was before the Courts assumed power! There wasn’t a single entity that could talk about and decide the fate of that city. The lack of central control on Mogadishu then was part of what caused political stagnation in the south. Even the outside world could appreciate that fact saaxiib. This you get an F for missing it!

 

As for the said regions being awash with weapons that could as well be the case but on whom do you blame it? Do you blame it on Puntland for facilitating Ethiopia and its sponsored warlords via Galkacyo such as criminal Qaybdiid, or do you blame it on the TFG for its adversarial role and inviting unnecessarily Ethiopian and pursuing dead-end policy of bringing foreign troops, or do you just see what Islamic Courts do as a reaction to an obvious hostile act from the other side? Which one is it adeer?

 

^^Never mind that as it's a rhetorical question .

 

Let me put it differently though, and with a bit of moral clarity: why the Islamic Courts didn’t wage an open war (a righteous one at that) against the said groups/personalities? The answer is very simple saaxiib, and quite elementary at that, for with Ethiopia amassing troops at Baydhabo, defeated warlords regrouping and getting helping from regions that are not part of the current Mogadishu equation, Islamic Courts are left with a very limited choice as to what to do militarily and politically. These men are no fools. How could one start a war of choice when a much bigger conflict is brewing on the horizon? Whatever hopes was there to clean the southern theater from the thugs were dashed by the unwise reaction by the TFG and Puntland. Blame it on them---the TFG that is!

 

As for who are these courts …well that’s a rhetorical question. It must be!

[Taleexi]

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea:

quote:Originally posted by Mansa Munsa:

Mr. Red Sea then you as well should come out from the closet and call yourself Buroaer rather being somalilander!!... before you utter your word put them through in a rational, test schema

Well,why wouldn't ya? go ahead refer me whatever you like to hear, it's all good to me, except I am not Burcawi,maybe because of clan lineage I am from there,but I was born the city that I displayed at the bottom. So as well off as I was of Xiin's birth place, you are also way off to the right of mind.

I conceded partially to my inadvertent remark regarding your birth place, however, my abstract logic is still valid, meaning the more we know about our weight and political associations, the closer our differences converge...

[General Duke]

Let me put it differently though, and with a bit of moral clarity: why the Islamic Courts didn’t wage an open war (a righteous one at that) against the said groups/personalities? The answer is very simple saaxiib, and quite elementary at that, for with Ethiopia amassing troops at Baydhabo, defeated warlords regrouping and getting helping from regions that are not part of the current Mogadishu equation, Islamic Courts are left with a very limited choice as to what to do militarily and politically.

I agree with that part, rightly highlighting the limit of power of the clan courts.

We disagree in that I have not been bought by the re-branding of what is essentially a clan movement. The label “Islamic courts†is provocative and I admit effective, however we have seen clearly that the courts are serving a very small interest group even within the larger clan confederacy.

 

Again I find nothing remotely new in your argument, which is to hold on to the promise made by some in the courts while totally avoiding the actions caused by their power brokers. I agree Shiekh Sharif speaks well and has made appealing comments with regards to the looted properties and return of land. However the agony continues in the south and even in Mogadishu, for the poor souls who have no pick up trucks to defend them.

 

An interesting point you made is that the support of Inda Cade is a necessity for the courts in the mean time, I agree with you fully. But let me add that Inda Cade and his clique have been searching for legitimacy and thus the cover of the courts is also a necessity for them. He was a mere thug an alleged drug peddler a few months ago occupying the lands of others. Now he is an Islamic warrior defending us from the Ethiopian occupation to come. Brother, who is fooling who? Are the gullable sheikhs not being taken for a ride?

[Castro]

^ You're gonna love this. This is what one Arab dude posted on the Al-Arabiya website in response to a news report about the ICU applying a form of Sharia to punish those accused of "bad" behavior. First the original Arabic then my translation of it:

 

 

من اولى هؤلاء الجهلة وحوش مجاهل اÙريقيا وآكلة لحوم البشر تطبيق الشريعة ØŒ والعجب من معلق يقول انه تطبيق الشريعة السمحاء !!!!!!!! Ùأين السماح واين الرحمة اذا ما تولى الجهلة شؤون الاسلام ØŒ وليعلم هؤلا الÙاسقون ومن يؤيدهم ان من يحق له تقدير تطبيق الشريعة بحوهرها ووÙÙ‚ غاياتها السامية هم العلماء والمتعمقون ÙÙŠ الشرع وليس جهلة الصومال ØŒ Ùلا شك ان الشريعة التي يطبقوها هي شريعة الغاب وليس شريعة الاسلام ØŒ ونسأل بعد هذا لماذا يحتقر الغرب ديننا ونبينا وشعوبنا ؟؟؟؟؟ Ùاننا والله قد نصل الى زمن نخجل بالقول اننا مسلمون اذا بقي هؤلاء يستخدمون اسم الاسلام ويدعون انهم مسلمون ØŒ ÙليرÙع الغطاء الاسلامي عن هؤلاء المجرمين وليطلق عليهم اسم لا يمت الى الاسلام لانهم هم لا يمتون الى الاسلام بشيء ØŒ كما اقترح على الدول العربية ان تخرج الصومال من جامعتها ØŒ ولتعلن صراحة تبرؤها من هؤلاء ØŒ ليبقى الاسلام العربي عزيزا Ù‹ محترما Ù‹ لا يلوثه هؤلاء المرتزقة بسمومهم ولنميز اسلامنا الحقيقي عن اسلام هؤلاء المناÙقين ØŒ ولنتذكر ان نبينا كان عربيا Ù‹ وليس مغوليا Ù‹ اÙغانيا Ù‹ ولا زنجيا Ù‹ صوماليا Ù‹ Ùمن اولى واجباتنا نحن العرب احÙاد محمد ( ص) ان ننشر الاسلام الحقيقي لا ان نغض الطر٠كي نستورد ما يسمى زورا Ù‹ بالاسلام من طالبان ومحاكم تÙتيش الصومال ØŒ Ùليكن جواب الامة العربية لهؤلاء ` لكم اسلامكم ولي اسلامي ` Ùكما قيل ان الاسلام سينتهي كما بدأ غريبا Ù‹ ØŒ وهل اشد غربة وغرابة مما الحقه هؤلاء بالاسلام ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟ وشكرا Ù‹ لرحابة صدر العربية .......... والسلام

 

Who are these cannibal ignoramus of Africa to apply the Sharia law? And they even claim to apply forgiving Sharia??? Where is the mercy and where is the forgiveness when the ignorant have taken over the matters of Islam. And let these transgressors and their supporters know that only scholars who have studied jurisprudence in depth can apply the Sharia and not the ignorant of Somalia. There is no doubt the law they apply is that of the jungle and not the Sharia of Islam. And we wonder then why the West despises our religion, our prophet and our peoples. We could truly reach a time we are embarrassed to call ourselves Muslim if we allow these people to continue calling themselves Muslims and use the name of Islam. Let the cover of Islam be lifted from these criminals and let them be called a name that has no relation to Islam for they have no relation to Islam.

 

And as was suggested to the Arab nations to kick Somalia out of their league and to disown them. And let Islam remain Arabic and honorable not soiled with the poison of these mercenaries. And let us distinguish our true Islam from the practice of these hypocrites. And let us remember that our prophet was an Arab and not a Mongolian Afghan or a Somali Negro. The greatest duty for us Arabs, the grandchildren of Muhammad (SCW), is to spread the true Islam and not get distracted while we import this forgery of Islam from the Taliban and these searching Courts of Somalia. Let the response of the nation to them be "to you your Islam and to us ours". As it was said Islam will start strange and end as it began, is there anything stranger or more foreign than what these groups have done to Islam?

 

And we have one fool around here claiming he's more Arab than the Arabs themselves. :rolleyes:

 

Al-Arabiya