are you a traditional girl or modern superwoman?

[Rising Phoenix]

Originally by x_quizit:

Rising Phoenix, u asked what's traditional and what's modern? great q....depending on what century one is living in, then people of that time get to say what's modern and what's not, but the problem with that is that it changes according to location, time, cultures, etc....I think modernity in the context of this post, means when traditional household norms are abolished in order to take in new ones, because society is ever changing and evolving. So in this day and age, a modern woman is one that is able to maintain a career, has a house and career and a traditional woman is seen as one who is a stay at home wife/mom (nothing wrong with that) as long as it was her choice and not shoved down her throat by society/culture by such ppl as Khayr. Hope that clarifyed ur clouded judgement bro.

Thanks for that, sis. I agree on this point. It seems to me that some Somali men seem to have a field day with the word TRADITIONAL, every time someone mentions the words WOMAN and WORK in the same sentence. Then all the crap about MODERN starts coming out, and how women are losing their Islam.

 

Can I ask, exactly who is so weak-minded that going to work will make you forget about your Creator? Who is so dumb to think that your job is your new God? If Somali men have so much respect for their women (as they claim) then why do they come out with this crap? Why do they insult us, Somali Women, by saying we are losing our religion? Somali Women are not losing their religions, THEY ARE TRYING TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN!Since the so-called fathers are not.

 

Khayr, bruh, like X_quizit, I too have seen many of these sorry excuses for men, who hang around so-called cafes all day, and chew qaat, claiming to be discussing Political Affairs. It would be far better should they go home and relate with their children once in a while. Then maybe we wouldn't have so many angry youths running around.

 

As for me, marriage is a CHOICE and right now I'll doubt I'll choose it when our choices are between Faarax in the Mafrish and Faarax on the street corner.

 

Whereas a CAREER is most definitely not a choice, and number ONE thing to achieve in life. And if that makes me modern, then h£ll yeah, I am modern.

[LuCkY]

SaLaaMz,

 

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY RAULA:

To others..I will resume to my other duties..and this site will no longer be on my to do list..(I dont mean to insult others or the admins..I really get along with many of you guyz and have appreciated the love that I have received for much of my time in this site..however, there are some people that run their mouths..and I have been raised not to accept them..I hope this wont create some confusion....peace unto you and Ramadan Kareem...

Sis i wouLd just LIke to say dont Let ignorant peopLe get to you who Lack respect for themseLves otherwise insuLting others wouLd not be on their List. Some peopLe just dont know what respect is thus resorting to demeaning others.Dont Let them get to you because unfortunateLy you wiLL encounter many if not worse peopLe in Life.YOu just have to find a way to deaL with them-the best way to go wouLd be ignoring them thus saving you time and energy not to mention danbi.By Leaving you are Letting them win(whatever that means)!-you are Letting them get the best of you-they shoULdnt.

 

RaMadan KarIIm.

[sayfulaah-almasluul]

oh traditionlist!!!!!!!!!!!my God i would have advise all somali women to be modern superwomen.the reason being that modern women can in one way or other help somali society.and for clarification what i mean by modern superwomen is to have the capability to take the challenge b it economic challlenges,politicall or even social challenges.an educated women and men can create the best society.the idea of women to remain confine in their houses is i think discouragement for women to take their role in the society.but i must addmit that some people think being a modern women means acting like westners,hey the modern women we need is one follows the steps of fatima bintu rasul(p.b.u. them all) that who put all her efforts to raise hasan and husein the leader of muslims in every field be it education be it taqwa,or even leadership,that women who devoted all her llife to serve for the best of all muslims,that woman who tiredlessly preached and corrected the the behaviours of millions of muslims through her effort of showing good examples.we need woman like khaldiija bintu khuweyla who despite the diffculites stood with all her support with prophet p.b.u.h who also spent her entire whealth and her strenghth to spread the islam.that is what we want to seee in our sisters to be like.we don't want our sister to be like madonna who allher ambtion is to be rich,i can confidently say that is equally ordered muslims be it women or men to seek education prophet says in hadith itis obligation upon all muslims to seek education aw kama qala. that is clear hadith no one can tell us that women shouldn't seek education or they shouldn't envolve or take part the development of a society. men and women in my view share equal responsiblity towards the society.they play difrent roles but doen't mean one of them take more responsibility than other.they are as somali say goes gacmo wadajir ayey wax ku gooyaan

[Captivating_SouL]

Originally posted by wind.talker:

I used to be a traditional girl. Now, I'ma modern superwoman!

 

Captivating Soul -

 

When I grow up, I wanna be jus like you! :eek:

 

sykeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Looooooooooooool, oh is that so. Apprecaite the scarsm darlin.. but keep it real.

wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[x_quizit]

Rising Phoenix, I think U and I are on the same wave length, u understand exactly where I'm coming from. It's sad that a working somali woman is demonized in our society by some men who are threatened by their independence...yes that is what it is, these men like their women to be dependent on them, and if she doesnt have a job or a degree to fall back on, then there's less of a chance for her to leave a less than spectacular marriage.

 

Studies show that women who are dependent on their partners or are not financially independent, may suffer more abuse than other women, mainly because an independent women would never stand for such treatment.(yes it happens in even families that consider themselves islamic).

 

Isnt it sad sis, that our choices in the somali community have been so limited? Its a well known fact that sistas who are overseas pursue their education more than the brothas for the most part, and maybe that has something to do with some of the guys having role models that let down their families.

 

Also guys keeep in mind, what Allah has granted us muslim women: regardless if we work or not, our money is ours to do with as we wish, we're not required to spend a dime on the kids or the household, that is ur job. So be thankful, that some of us sistas wanna contribute in the house and ease some of the financial burden from your shoulders, cause i can easily make all my money, spend it on myself like im allowed, and still expect you to fulfill all my needs, like its required.

Keep that in mind.

 

Peace

[Blessed]

Interesting topic.

 

Girls, just remember our role models. Khadija, Aisha, Xafsa and all the saxaabiyaat. (RA) They weren't mere house wives, so I guess that made them mordern. For society (espcially an Islamic one) to function properly; it needs the full involvement of their men and women. How are we going to pregoress if we don't have female doctors, nurses, teachers and lecturers? Islamdoesnot forbid a sister from seeking education and pursuing a career. However, we have to be mindful as to the upbringing of our children and the impact our working hours may have on them.

 

 

Raula,

Sis,don't leave on behalf of one individual. There are many people here that appreciate your input

 

Khayr

Walaal, please refrain from personal attackes. Discuss the topic at hand and please stop patronising belitteling other nomads!

[Khayr]

Salaamz,

Y'all can twist people's words

and CONVICT them as CRIMINALS.

 

Read CAREFULLLLLYYYYY

before

you jump on the bandwagon

of ACCUSATIONS!!!

[Rising Phoenix]

X_Quizit: Thank you for once again bringing up excellent points; you're right, you and I are running on the same wave-lengths. It's rather a lonely road, is it not?

 

Khayr: Are you saying we are twisting your words? Then how about I quote them back to you?

 

Salaamz,

I just want to ask a question to

b/c many Xalimoos burst the cry of 'Freedom and Liberation' when they say that

they have a 'right to an education' and that Islam supports this.

 

Well, let me ask you this,

What kind of Education does Islam support in the first place?

What is your understanding of what is Good Education v. Bad Education?

 

According to my understanding from what the ulama like Ibn Al-attas, Ghazzali, Sayuti etc.,

that the Islamic Education is

any knowldge that links back forth

Allah>>>>>Mankind & Mankind>>>>>Allah

That relationship should always be reitrated

b/c the Thesis of the Quran is that

"WE COME FROM ALLAH AND TO HIM WE BELONG'

 

Well if thats the case then, what does 4yrs at a Univ. studying Engineering have to do with Islam? If what you are studying is not being related to this relationship of Man to ALLAH.

 

You are persuing Secular Education that Seperates Religion and from Knowledge Explicitly and Implicitly.

 

If for example you are spending all time stuyding a particular field, but in reality it is changing who you and your way of lifestyle and hampering your DEEN i.e. No time for Salat, only NonMuslims around you 24hrs a day etc.

Then do you still thing that

the Education you are seeking is a good for thing? If Yes, why is it Good cause in Islam

Good is in relation to how something draws your closer or further from Allah.

 

How's that? If that's not enough, how about this:

 

 

On another note, let me give you a short scenario....

Say a Xalimoo goes and persues her Education

and finishs her 4yrs. Now unless she has a father in Arabia, she's probably racking up alot of money interms of loans for her schooling.

So lets say on the conservative said (and this is being conservative), she graduates school with a $10,000 LOAN on her plate.

She's 23/24 now, so she wants to get rid of that loan, so she starts to work right after she graduates but she also has to help out the family with whatever money she makes, so doesn't have enough money to pay off that loan as quickly as she wanted to and to add to this, she goes back to slow to get more education

to get a bettr job. So she gets another loan for her new courses.

 

Well a few yrs later, she's 25-26 and now she has her Masters, but say min. $15, 000 debt (excluding the monthly interest charges).

Now she has gotten a nice job,

but it will take her a few yrs to pay off her loan.

So 4yrs later, at the age of 30yrs old, she will have gotten rid of her debt. So she's 30yrs old now and looking for a Hubby.

Do you think that many money will be interested in her, cause she's 30yrs old now. Not the same as she was say 10yrs ago?

 

She could of tried to get married when she had her loan at a younger age but a Xalimo with

a debt isn't tooo attractive to persue for marriage. Ask any muslim man and he will agree with me. Two people with huge Student Loans getting married forces both individuals to Work right off the but and this is where the problem lies.

 

You sisters that think that Getting a Career and having a Family is the Ideal Muslim Family should really check be honest with yourselves. For 1400yrs, that wasn't the model so why is this model for a family where 'Dual INCOME' families are the Ideal sooo much better???

I think this is rather a closed-minded approach. As a woman who has achieved PhD status, I would think she would have some brains. Now which woman in her right mind, would expect a man to pay off her loans? It's the loans she paid for her OWN education, to get a career so she would be INDEPENDENT, so why should she launch onto her husband and ask him to pay it off for her? It seems to me you have not thought out your argument correctly.

 

And who the h3ll thinks 30 years of age is old anyway? What is it about Somali Men that they like women who are 21 or under, who are children themselves? Answer me this: why is a 43 year old man marrying a 21 year old woman? In my book this is called PERVERSION. This concept is not Islamic Deen. If any of these so-called great Somali Muslim Men would ever bother to read the Quran properly, they would cry with their shame. Even the wadaads are spewing this garbage! As it is, their own huge egos have blocked their views.

 

But why am I bothering, anyway? Somali Men will continue with this dumb-a$$ idea until all women wake up and leave their sorry a$$es to be by themselves. You cannot eduate them, so don't waste your breath, sisters.

 

All I gotta say, sisters, is get yourself a career and worry about finding a nice Muslim (preferably Non-Somali) man, much much later. Much later.

[Baashi]

x-quizit and Rising phoenix,

 

Let me start with what I agree with u:

First there is no legal provision in Islamic law that can be construed to say women cannot work outside her home. If there are provisions on that nature I’ve never heard of them. Disclaimer: I’m not ‘Calim’ and I’m just paraphrasing ‘Cilmi Dhegood’ from Islamic lectures.

 

Secondly, within Islamic society it is desirable and even commendable to have a women be examined by women hence Islam presumes that there will be a female doctors. By the same token, in girl schools female teachers are more preferable than male teachers thus it is clear the need for female teachers there. Therefore, it shows that under ideal Islamic society there must be educated women who have these skills.

 

However, if there is a conflict between advancing/maintaining your career (doctors, nurses, teachers, etc) and attending your motherly/wifely functions, the later takes precedents. There are priorities in what we do and decisions we made thus in this case the best interest of the children comes first. Are we in agreement on this point qalanjooyin?

 

Furthermore, if we expand our view and consider other major roles women play in society in terms of maintaining the fabric of society (family) and rising children with proper upbringing especially in early childhood, we will conclude that motherhood has much more noble and challenging function than any other roles women take on. In this age, ‘housewives’ the word is a loaded word with such negative connotation – especially in materialistic society who tend to look economic dimension of this issue (i.e. two working partners can have more worldly goods). Her role in society is by no means insignificant according Islamic teaching and common sense.

 

There is misconception it appears about career. If I’m not mistaken, you seem to be saying that you consider paying job outside home as career but motherhood, according to you, is not regarded as a career. For instance, daycare worker, nurse, secretary, teacher, waitress and what not are regarded as careers. Obviously by doing these chores for an organization or a company earns you money. It follows that money, contribution to society, and individual fulfillment is the end that motivates you. If that is the case, by working at home you are contributing tremendously to both the well being of your household and community at large. In fact, your contributions exceed your husband’s entire salary as mothers are doing constant work, constant effort looking after children and household. That is not a worthless contribution by any stretch of the word.

 

As for the income, suppose your husbands guarantee your financial needs and they wish you took care family business, would that be an acceptable proposition to you? What about if Qur’anic law and prophetic traditions confirm that you should accept such offer? And as you would agree with me Divine law must have great deal of wisdom and reason behind it. We may not comprehend fully today but we will understand as we become more knowledgeable the spirit of Islam.

 

As far as fulfillment is concerned, what fulfillment is greater than the establishment of a warm home, a happy husband, healthy and well-reared children and loved and cherished wife (in the eyes of her grateful husband)? Isn’t that what the term “quality time”, that workingwomen are so in need of, meant?

 

More on career! Why is it that if a woman cooks in a restaurant for strangers is regarded as having a career and when she cooks for her beloved husband (who are required to guarantee her financial security to best of his ability) and children, is regarded as inferior? Or you wouldn’t consider someone pursuing career as secretary or waitress or in this example chef as having career?

 

too long? couldn't help

[LuCkY]

SaLaaMz,

 

Rising Phoenix,X_Quizit,Baashi you have made some very very good points on the issue at hand...no need for me to be redundant-so i rest my case.

 

More on career! Why is it that if a woman cooks in a restaurant for strangers is regarded as having a career and when she cooks for her beloved husband (who are required to guarantee her financial security to best of his ability) and children, is regarded as inferior? Or you wouldn't consider someone pursuing career as secretary or waitress or in this example chef as having career?

 

too long? couldn't help

I dont know-the bLame is on society on that one.I personaLLy dont see it that way.I wouLd be more than happy-pLeased to cook meaLs for my husband and chiLdren and Look after their weLL-being...whether or not some see it as inferior.Its just that that is associated with the image -'barefooted and pregnant'-that society paints of a woman at home cooking and Looking after her husband and kids which has a negative-inferior outLook to it rather than pursuing a career.

[Khayr]

Salaamz,

RP, walaal I won't spend time arguing

cause then things become personalized

and we get off topic.

But you disagree with me and Alhamdulillah

I can agree to disagree with you

and stop a conversation at that

if its not bearing any fruits.

 

Baashi, you said it very eloquently.

 

I don't think that I have ever stated

that its HARAM for a women not to work.

 

Let me tell you how EVIL and WICKED this

CAPITALIST society is.

 

Say you want to buy a home and

on avg. the home is $250,000 (in a large city,

these are the cheapest homes)

Well the mortgage for that after putting 5% down (min. down payment) is say $1300 a month.

These are conservative estimates.

$1300 Mortgage (Principal + Interest)

$150 Insurance

$200 Property Taxes

$300 Hydro & Utilities

$100 Car Insurance

$300 Food

$200 Loan on 5% down payment

$100 Credit Card Payments

------

$2650 TOTAL

 

(You would need to be making $50,000-$60,000 to maintain that BEFORE TAXES)

 

These are very conservative estimates

and u're not living in a luxuray home here.

So what situation does this set u up for.

 

A DUAL INCOME family.

 

Meaning, its already assumed that

the Husband and Wife both have JOBS

and have to be working.

 

If you want to buy a decent home, condo

or rent out, the expenses are so HIGH

in the Metro Cities i.e. Toronto, London etc.

that you need BOTH COUPLES working FULL TIME.

 

I was thinking of this a few days ago,

cause they rarely approve mortgages based on one persons income (a doctor that makes $125,000 can only get a $400,000 home by himself, but with his spouse, they can get a decent $500,000+ home

that fits their lifestyle (and these are not mansions either!)

 

I was trying to figure out in my head

about maintaining Mortgages and rents

and how it can be done with a single income

home (i.e the Husband working).

 

Well, these Capitalists new that

under the old family structure of having

Single Income families, won't give people

the CHANCE to PURCHASE homes.

But if they told Families that they could

buy HOMES with both parents INCOME, well

then that would give people a CHANCE

to BUY HOMES.

 

Its so EVILLLLLL and Insidious that we

can't even realize it.

(Its like you're eating some Ice Cream

and it tastes sooo good so u get more scopes

and u go for some more tomorrow and the day after, all along enjoying it and not noticing that

u have gained 10pounds and u can't sit properly anymore cause of the weight gain and now have developed HIGH CHOLESTROL-not good for the HEART)

 

Cause what this has done, is FRAGMENT

the picture of what FAMILIES are suppose to be

and how they should be structured, and family values etc. :mad:

 

Families become so INDEBTED with Bills

and Mortgage Payments that they stop

becoming FULL time Families cause

everyone is too busy making money

and worrying about bills.

 

(You notice this in your own families,

when u only eat with each other during Ramadan

and the rest of the yr,everybody eats at diff. times of the day!)

 

They have STOLEN what we VALUED and replaced

it with a lovely platter of the DUNYA.

Its soooo SATANIC

but like all satanic things, you can't see

the EVIL in them, but only see PLEASURE

and GOODNESS.

 

Homes are becoming more and more expansive

now adays to either rent or buy and

these Capitalists/Corporations are taking into

account the Dual Income families as the MODEL FAMILY to sell homes too.

 

They are building CONDOS now that are not catered to Families and Children, slowly replacing the concept of Families again and limiting them

to one or two children per home in a CONDO. :eek:

 

So when I am saying something walaalyal,

its not because I'm trying to be MEAN

or Degrading.

 

I have experienced these things and work

in these types of environments.

 

Wa ma Towfiq ila bil Allah

 

Fi Amanallah

[Liqaye]

Thank you brother Khayr as usual people argue these things out as if they really had a say in these things , when it has already been pre-determined under the system they live in.

 

Beyond the capitalist system is the wholly kaffiir idea that one must gain, gain, gain to be considerd a worth while member of society, an idea that is implanted from the first shopping trip ( i would say christmas but i am giving some people the benefit of the doubt).

 

"homo econmicus' foremost community is the community of his intreast" Friedman in ROAD TO SERFDOM.

[-Lily-]

Originally posted by underdog:

Ism't it like two sides of the same coin...these days in order to saty true to your tradition you sorta have to be a modern superwoman....

[x_quizit]

Bashi, believe it or not, i actually agree with some of ur points, mainly the one u said that motherhood is important and those women who chose to stay home are doing a valuable job...i said that as well, if u saw my earlier postings, that any woman who stays home out of her own free will is contributing greatly to society...motherhood is unpaid labor, but should be looked at as a job...because there's nothing harder than that....

 

Regarding ur q, asking if a woman would chose to stay home if her husband fulfilled all her needs?

Personally, i would consider it, especially if we have kids, because the first couple yrs of their life is the most important, and since most countries give a woman up to a yr of maternity leave, id take it and stay home...but b4 all that...i would have to have a career for me to go back to once the kids are old enough to got o school, therefore maintaing a career and gaining an education is important...but to stay home permanently? why would i go to school just so i can become a couch potato when my husband is working and kids are at school? I would rather be productive and do something for society-work in an environment that enhances lives..not the corporate world..not my thing...

 

But i challenge u to answer my q that i asked previously that u and Khayr decided it was not important enough to reply to...so again i ask u...would u stay home and stay with the kids if ur wife earned more money than u or would u let ur "manly" pride get in the way and want to be seen as the man of the house?(see more detail in my previous post for this q)

 

peace

[Xafsa]

Baashi You made some very good points and I am inclined to agree with you.

 

But we need to seperate what is and what should be

Below are a few lines from your post...the way I see it all though there are brothers out there that will do as mentioned below there is a greater number of brothers that won't or can't.

In that case what is a muslim women to do?

 

As for the income, suppose your husbands guarantee your financial needs and they wish you took care family business, would that be an acceptable proposition to you?