Somaliland: The Little Country That Could (David H. Shinn)

[LANDER]

This article published by the CSIS (center for strategic and international studies) and written by an experienced US diplomat to East Africa, embodies most of the hopes and concerns of a Somalilander like myself. This man is very knowledgeable of Somali affairs and has dealt with us for over 20 years. I was very impressed on how he touched on not only the bright spots of Somaliland but also the great obstacles we have to surmount (i.e. the political motives of Saudi Arabia; Djibouti's fear of Berbera). If those who are quick to judge Somaliland had half the knowledge of this foreigner, we wouldn't have some much ignorance going around today. I invite all members of this thread to read this article in its entirety, especially if you’re going to reply to this posting.

 

Somaliland: The Little Country That Could (David H.Shinn)

[miles-militis]

Dear Lander- Allow me to dispel any notion of antagonism against Somaliland in advance on my part. While I concur your attestation of Dr Shin’s arguably extensive knowledge in matters relating to the land of Somalis, Somaliland in particular, I must admit that for a man of his stature and discipline, he comes across as somewhat lacking in many areas. Not only is he a republican regalist who promotes policies which resonate “good old school doctrine – the white elitist” legacy in every sense of the word, thus his dedication and relentless support of marketing Somaliland as a viable entity which ought to be recognised on the basis of colonial bequest. Though one would have thought a man of his training and experience would have exhibited strong grasp upon issues relating to the subject matter, his ignorance in matters social, political, and clan conflict in Somalia, southern Somalia in this case, is prevalent in all his articles including the referenced piece. The object of his desire, which many believe, and is widely held in many circles, stems from warm handshakes and handsome back-hander contributions between him and proponents of a republic called Somaliland, and his also being on the payroll of the administration in Hargeysa at a consultation capacity, and for PR purposes. His views on the matter, therefore are not objective, lax strong roots, and could only be regarded as such. Before you dismiss my assertion as mere rumours obtained through the grapevine, it would help to know that I am acquainted with the man at different levels, engaged in extensive discussion with him on the subject and other maters relating to the continent and the wider world, attended a number of his presentations, hence have some insight as to the nature of his fascination with the issue, and his desire to see a republic, thereby the rewards of his hardwork attained.

 

If this article conjures up the feelings of the general public in Somaliland as you put it, God may spare their souls for while the message might appear inviting on the surface, the gist of it ought not to be overlooked for doing so only receives peril of highest order to the beholders’ expense.

 

Good kick-off I thought when I first read it some months ago for a student researching for a paper in an undergradute level, and nothing more.

 

I trust you and others on this view are in far, far better position than this regalist, old hawk of Machiavellian doctrine to illuminate the feelings of the people in regions of Hargeysa, parts of Togdheer, and arguably Awdal.

 

So long!

[LANDER]

well samurai,

You say I should dispel any antagonising of your part concerning Somaliland, but with all do respect that his hypocritical. Among many of your statements, you minimize Somaliland’s territorial integrity into little bits and pieces and pretend not to be antagonistic.

 

the feelings of the people in regions of Hargeysa, parts of Togdheer, and arguably Awdal.

As for your argument against the author , you’ve used 2 mains tools of logical argumentation. (Philosophical)

 

1) “ad personam”(latin) argument: This argument consists of minimising or darkening the speaker himself in order to invalidate his argument.

2) Trial of intention: This argument presumes the intentions of another person.

 

So you see the point I’m trying to make is, even though you might have met this man, you’re not directly attacking his arguments, instead your resorting to manipulative tools to discredit his arguments. I think you’re intelligent enough to not warrant these weak methodologies in argumentation. As for your claim that he is on the payroll of the government in Hargeisa, to me sounds absurd. A man of his status requiring pay from a government that is barely able to sustain itself with its obvious lack of funding, just doesn’t make sense. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and would welcome any substantial proof you can provide to this claim.

[Coloow]

I have read the article and found nothing new in its substance to manifest a discussion. He does not use arguments as you implied but rather a vague description of historical events!

 

The contents of the article eminate from the political discourse of many leaders from the so called somaliland- and thus nothing revolutionary in it.

 

The only difference and which perhaps is the rational for your argument is the title of the man who has written it. and that does not signify much to an intellecual discussion but rather to rehtorics.

 

Allow me to make a disclaimer here too. my analysis does not depart from regionalism or tribalism.

 

Of course as a somali I applaud the progression of somaliland. They have indeed succeeded in establishing some kind of law and order. and have held elections. But what I can't see is the notion of relating independence to progression. There are several countries in the world that are not politically independent but have achieved economic growth,social justices which are the basis of a state.

 

To have a healthy debate, scholarly or otherwise I think we have to move on from propagandism, sepratism etc to one of a fair analysis based on facts which unfortunately eludes many students of somali history.

 

To sum up my intepretation of the article...it follows a pattern common to many somalis i.e. when a white man writes something about them it is the ultimate truth!

[LANDER]

Entrepreneur,

First let me say that the point of this article was not to engage in a debate, instead it was to inform people. There is not much new material in this article, other then the fact it comes from a non-somali source which shouldn’t be biased in it’s view. We have engaged in many such debates recently on this site and it never really amounted to much. It was always clouded by “propagandism” as you say, and a lot of it coming from the pro-unity camp concerning facts about Somaliland. Now I did point out this article because it was written by a highly educated foreigner and a man who is very much experienced in diplomacy. why? Because other Somalis won’t accept facts about Somaliland from somalilanders themselves and will discredit those facts as “propaganda” like you said. Of course you would like to simplify this into a matter of a Somali sucking up to “the white man”. Secondly let me tell you that your statements did not differ much in terms of using manipulative logical arguments to dismiss the credibility of the article or the author himself. Very much like Samurai warrior, I could point them out to you but I won’t bother this time. Another point

To have a healthy debate, scholarly or otherwise I think we have to move on from propagandism, sepratism etc to one of a fair analysis based on facts

how can you dismiss “separatism” from any argument on Somaliland and assume we’re going to have a “fair argument based on facts”? It doesn’t make sense to me, given that Somaliland is a separatist republic and the idea of “separatism” would be the heart of the issue. Well I guess that is the case that you would make right? To proove that the somali peoples have been united throughout history. I'd be glad to hear anything you have to say on that matter, there are probably plenty of ideas we can learn from one another on that topic.

 

p.s. you can check out the past threads where people have argued over the independence of Somalliland if you like.

[Coloow]

saaxib, I don't want to turn to an "educated" white man to get information about how our people are doing in somaliland!. As a matter of fact, As a somali I am proud of the achievments somaliland. To any somali the strides made by somaliland in terms of political, economic and social cohesion should be a learning process. We should be proud of somaliland. But what I don't get is the rationale of independence- and this article by the "learned foreigner" adds a touch of propagandism to an otherwise clear situation.

 

I will come back to discuss this issue later

[miles-militis]

Dear Lander – I shall set the issue concerning the author aside for the time being for the simple reason that his presence would have received a rather objective analysis of his work, and whilst you could perhaps agree, thus defend the theorem presented here, you could not possibly speak on his behalf of the author, hence for the sake of our sanity we shall not engage in a discussion evaluating the works of the third party.

 

As for the line of philosophical analysis you took on, I must admit I quite like that approach as character and integrity of the presenter bears heavily on not only as to the value of the argument presented, but also validity of the argument along with the anticipated response. I trust you are familiar with Posterior Analytics, and the assumed knowledge on the part of the individual making the case, adverse or otherwise, thus hope you will understand that “trail of intention” though perhaps appears applicable here, slants the nature of the issues addressed skewing the viewpoints of both parties.

 

Here I wish to quote a great philosopher who was quoted in the analysis of Sophistical Refutations to have said “ …. what appear to be refutations but are really fallacies instead. …..that some reasonings are genuine, while others seem to be so, but are not, is evident”.

 

Of the four classes of arguments in dialogue form: [Didactic, Dialectical, Examination-arguments, and Contentious argument], I quite like to think that my original debate was along the lines of Didactic Argument (the type that reason from the principal that is appropriate to each subject, and not from the opinions held by the answerer – yours and the authors in this case), and analysis for such principles. Note the repetition of the term principle and its directives. The authors whose source of information could only be described one-sided fails to address fundamental issues intrinsic to the subject matter, intricate in nature, and innate to the natives of the region which he irrespective of his training could not possibly discern in culturally appropriate fashion. Therefore, his contribution to the subject shall always come second to the natives’, and shall fall short in many aspects.

 

Moving along, reality on the ground dear Lander is a determining factor which influences one’s deductive summation of the presence of a condition that perhaps challenges the desire of the beholder of the existence of an idyllic state structure in Somaliland, yours in this case. This could not be dismissed for doing so would not only be disservice to the struggle, but denial of the people’s right to decide and determine their place geographically or politically in the sphere of things Somali. This ought to be extended to all groups in the region. If Hargeysa, Togdheer (excluding Buhodle which I understand is a region now – Hawd), and Awdal desire a state or republic of their own, so be it. This observes the true resistance and relentless aspiration on the part of the people in SS&H who identify economically, geographically, and politically more with Puntland State, thereby federal Somalia, and arguably Awdal which is in a bit of a limbo at the moment, but has remained a fierce proponent of a federal Somalia despite geographically limiting factors on one side whilst instability and uncertain future on the other hand plights their position at least for the time being.

 

If you consider this hypocritical, I wonder what term you would reserve for the proponents of a country called Somaliland who base their entire argument on the grounds of atrocities, human rights violations, political and social marginalisation, above all the promotion of colonial legacy whilst rejecting pre-historic territorial integrity and land appropriation in order to benefit a single group whilst subjecting the same ills and untoward against other groups. When you find a befitting answer for that, do notify me for I surely shall receive it with immense interest.

 

Perhaps we shall develop the argument a bit deeper another day,

Until then so long!

[Gabbal]

Moving along, reality on the ground dear Lander is a determining factor which influences one’s deductive summation of the presence of a condition that perhaps challenges the desire of the beholder of the existence of an idyllic state structure in Somaliland, yours in this case. This could not be dismissed for doing so would not only be disservice to the struggle, but denial of the people’s right to decide and determine their place geographically or politically in the sphere of things Somali. This ought to be extended to all groups in the region. If Hargeysa, Togdheer (excluding Buhodle which I understand is a region now – Hawd), and Awdal desire a state or republic of their own, so be it. This observes the true resistance and relentless aspiration on the part of the people in SS&H who identify economically, geographically, and politically more with Puntland State, thereby federal Somalia, and arguably Awdal which is in a bit of a limbo at the moment, but has remained a fierce proponent of a federal Somalia despite geographically limiting factors on one side whilst instability and uncertain future on the other hand plights their position at least for the time being.

 

If you consider this hypocritical, I wonder what term you would reserve for the proponents of a country called Somaliland who base their entire argument on the grounds of atrocities, human rights violations, political and social marginalisation, above all the promotion of colonial legacy whilst rejecting pre-historic territorial integrity and land appropriation in order to benefit a single group whilst subjecting the same ills and untoward against other groups. When you find a befitting answer for that, do notify me for I surely shall receive it with immense interest.

Better than I could've ever said. :cool:

[Xassan Nasra Allah]

I second to Horn walaahi. "i couldn't have said it better".

 

could sumarai warrior be Sir Farah, our inhouse Scholar :cool:

[Baashi]

David Shinn is a US diplomat...he had unsuccessfully lobbied Somaliland's secession from Somalia. He has tried and failed to secure some sort of adhoc presence of US diplomatic mission in Hargeisa. David allegedly adviced Somaliland leadership to campaign African countries (South Africa and Senegal) for recognition. Once one African country recognizes Somaliland, he reasoned, West and Ethiopia's acceptance of Somaliland will be justified. That effort didn't materialized.

 

With that record I would take anything he says about Somalia with grain of salt for he is a passionate activist bend to divide us.

[LANDER]

Samurai,

I will try to keep this short. If you would like to discuss Aristotelian philosophies, that can be done in appropriate time. I very much differ from you in my understanding of posterior analytics and did not see the relevance of linking it to the trial of intention argument. I doubt you understood my explanation of the “trial of intention” argument and its relevance to your previous posting. My goal on this posting was to spread this article. Not to discuss the sovereignty of Somaliland or to engage in philosophical arguments.

Now you are more than welcome to comment on the different regions of Somaliland, but when you say the majority of Sanaag and Hawd identify more with Puntland then Somaliland, then you are spreading your own version of “propaganda”. Just like if a Somalilander where to tell you that the majority of the residents of Sool are supportive of Somaliland, then that would also be “propaganda”. You are making your statements on Sanaag&Hawd sound like FACT, as if you went in person to those regions to conduct some sort of CENSUS. Well you can quote me if you like on this because it is my own personal opinion, but Somaliland will not compromise on Sanaag and Hawd. Either way I have gotten more involved in an argument about this subject then I would like.

 

p.s. I heard the people of Awdal have become very pro-somaliland, ever since Riyaale got elected. Of course I have no facts to back up any claim. I hope we continue to win over all of the people whitin our territories.

[miles-militis]

Dear Lander- Discussions of philosophical concepts aside though such concepts tend to strengthen, hence add substance to the debate for politics in itself is a branch or a discipline of philosophy that one could not approach the former whilst distancing oneself from the latter, for such would equate taking a dip in the Thames river yet not wanting to come into contact with water. The object of one’s yearning here is unattainable, yet I accept your desire. You see, the nucleus of the article which prompted the discussion posted by yours truly was to promote such issues as the supposed progress, theoretical sovereignty, projected viability economically or otherwise ushered in with recognition, and the forecasted economic and political sustainability of a country called Somaliland which has neither the resources, and this embodies the true challenge, thus is the operative term here, natural or otherwise, nor the institutions to blossom, hence its relevance is very much pertinent. Again, as you desire I shall let that too rest.

 

For the unrelenting though tragically vanishing contention of SS&H that has remained an obsessive object of sort for the administration in Hargeysa, to which you seem to have reduced as a mere propaganda, a simple question would be which administration provides public services such as institution building (that of organising townships and rural terrain in self-governing mode), allocating resources for the maintenance of state establishment including banks (Laascaanod’s primary bank opened a couple of month ago since 1991), government residences such town halls, local offices etc., tax anthology though infant yet rapidly taking shape, police forces to sustain order, promotion of the private sector, grass roots public cohesion and endorsement of the system of government in place, and above all enumerating the overall desire of the public in the aforementioned regions – a federal system of government in Somalia? It is to the credit and political suaveness of the Puntland administration. The same administration that made it possible for the people in Burco and all Togdheer to utilise Bosaso, the business hub of that part of the region. What happened to Berbera you may ask?

 

So far as Awdal, what do you reckon will happen when pro-SNM loyalists who seem to alienate any one other than their supporters, and that is the majority of the people from Hargeysa to Burco, lead by Silanyo, propped up by Raqiya Omar of African Rights on the international forums, and Jamhuuriya at the local level take a strong foothold in any part of the country? Couple that with the formation of a federal system of government in Somalia where regions will be encouraged to forge strategic alliances within autonomous States; where do you reckon their interests lie?

 

Politics it has been said is a like a spring daffodil with plots and contenders all around it, the spills fall for the one who prunes first generally at the fall of the other. If you lose it, you have lost it, and there in no getting it back. And unfortunately, political leaders in Somaliland have foregone a number of crucial political opportunities upon which they could have capitalised, and have lost the plot direly.

 

And by the way we, the pro-federalists are ushering in a government of this mode into Somalia, thus our efforts are concentrated upon its formation, and shall remain focused for the time being.

 

Best of luck old chap,

So long.

[India]

Admin.

 

 

I demand explainations as to why they were not even submitted?

 

 

I am starting to beleive that this site is Anti-Somaliland as have been suggested before.

 

 

Dusty.

[Gabbal]

I demand explainations as to why they were not even submitted?

What was not submitted, Angel Dust :confused:

[AYOUB]

Am I the only one being baffled by philosophical huuu haaa? :confused: . How about the hypocrisy of the pro Somalia camp?

 

When the elders merged Somaliland with Somalia, did anyone ask what Buhoodle thinks about it?

 

If a majority of people in Somaliland voted for a reunion with Somalia, would anyone ask for Buhoodle's opinion?

 

I'll give Samurai the benefit of the doubt, but this issue has been discussed before in this forum and the cheerleaders/sidekicks know this.

 

Samurai gave a number of reasons why Somaliland wants to be seperate, but left out the most important one which is: WE DESERVE BETTER.

 

Are Somalilands borders the only ones which have some colonial backgound?

 

I know the KACAAN text books never taught you guys this, but what is now known as the rest of Somalia was leased and then bought by Italians from the Sultaan of Zanzibar who went on to run it as a colony. If you lot want to see where Somalia's pre colonial ended, you need to check your old rulers' maps.

 

Somaliland will and does respect all the opinions of all its citizens, but i find it a bit strange for people wanting Somaliland to respect the opinion of some district when they themselves don't respect the opinions of Somalilanders as a whole.