Confederacy: The case of Puntland

[Tallaabo]

4 hours ago, Illyria said:

With Confederacy:
a) Autonomy:
    - Member States (MSs) maintain a high degree of autonomy, and pursue their own policies ranging from  institutions building to politics to economy to security amongst others whereas the National Government (NG) is designated to i) pursue and coordinate common national interest, and ii) provide protection of shared services and interests.  

b) Decentralisation:
    - Power is highly decentralised with MSs retaining significant power, and by extension sovereignty where the Nat. Gov't has control over explicitly delegated matters to it by MSs. MSs could withdraw some of said powers, and can withdraw from the Confederation.

c) Supremacy of the law:
    - MSs are sovereign political entities ONLY affording the Nat. Gov't limited, distinct powers explicitly defined, and agreed upon. The Nat. Gov't lacks authority to compel compliance from MSs.

d) Flexibility:
    - MSs have the ability to negotiate, modify, and update relationship with the Nat. Gov't. Significant national amendments would require MSs' consent, and consultation.

In other words what you want is a loosely "united" Somali nations where the Somali UN can be ignored, sidelined, weakened, and discarded whenever your so-called member states/ independent nations feel like doing it. Why make it so complicated and not just declare independence?

[Illyria]

2 hours ago, Tallaabo said:

In other words what you want is a loosely "united" Somali nations where the Somali UN can be ignored, sidelined, weakened, and discarded whenever your so-called member states/ independent nations feel like doing it. Why make it so complicated and not just declare independence?

The case against secession has been debated to death, perhaps you want to revisit those threads.

I am pragmatic, and not suicidal, nor am I brain-dead. Secession has never been considered, and is not an option.

This is the natural progression:

• Confederacy (interdependency): current state =>
• Dual Federalism (intradepedency): possibly in 20 years if not more =>
• Cooperative Federalism (Cohesive with greater cooperation): in  years =>
• Creative Federalism (The ultimate goal): lucky if in 100 years.

 

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

7 hours ago, Tallaabo said:

In other words what you want is a loosely "united" Somali nations where the Somali UN can be ignored, sidelined, weakened, and discarded whenever your so-called member states/ independent nations feel like doing it. Why make it so complicated and not just declare independence?

Don't reason labawajiile bilaa xishood ah. I am glad the dude utterly exposed munaafuqnimadiisa as a raging, closeted secessionist hypocrite. Xataa Reer Khaatumo uma ogola danahooda iyo aayahooda ka tashtaan oo ismaamulaan.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Confederecy can never happen because the people of Somalia have nothing that really divides them apart from tribalism there is nothing else

 

[Illyria]

Aaaah I see Urur Samaale coming out of the woodwork singing from the same hymn.

        If you can not contribute intellectually, as I know neither of you could, do yourselves a favour not to make complete arse of yourselves, and just stay away, as this is a discussion for the intellectually curious mature souls. This discussion requires erudite minds, so shuuush.

As the old hawk opined: "Ninkii dabinka meegaartay ee geri malaynaayey, sagaaradii majaha sudhatay baad maandhow ii tahaye"

[Samafal]

Waa yaab!! Ninkii amxaarada kala saftay Somalia uniikinayay oo xataa aan dhihin waa khaldanyahay baa dad labo wajiile ku sheegaya. Aduunyooy xaalkaa ba'a. Kaaga darane reer dhan iyo dad dhan buu marwalba isku qaadayaa. Anagu reer Koonfur Galbeed caynmayno laakiin midkaan cuqdadu dishay Allaha caafiyo.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

16 hours ago, Illyria said:

Aaaah I see Urur Samaale coming out of the woodwork singing from the same hymn.

        If you can not contribute intellectually, as I know neither of you could, do yourselves a favour not to make complete arse of yourselves, and just stay away, as this is a discussion for the intellectually curious mature souls. This discussion requires erudite minds, so shuuush.

As the old hawk opined: "Ninkii dabinka meegaartay ee geri malaynaayey, sagaaradii majaha sudhatay baad maandhow ii tahaye"

so if we allow puntland to be a confederal what will stop  jubbaland to ask for the same and  galmdudug and hiiraan south west  , before you know it you dont have a country with any sort of power . you just want to have somalia just to exist in name only and not function ur loyalty is with ur enclave first  you choose that above anything else just be honest with ur self

 

[Illyria]

That is the whole point. Let me take you back to the 90s. Do you recall bottom-up building block approach to nation building to which you had all been opposed then, yet are all enamoured with now. If so, in hindsight, proponents of the Federalist model rushed in overestimating dangers of anti-governance forces by sidestepping its predecessor model: Confederacy, intended to give way to Federalism, but unfortunately, the Federalist model has been hijacked, and the best  way to rescue it is to return it back to its predecessor. I would suggest you consult Articles of Confederacy, and its its successor models.

Postscript:

To better understand, just imagine had Xasan, or Farmajo, or any other leader at the Federal level, had enough army and power to destabilise JL, as both attempted re: Ras Kamboni, Bu'aale, and Garbahaarey. The same applies to other FMSs. How does that differ from Siyad Barre?

If he had enough power, he would have shut down Hargeysa and Garowe air space, as he has done in Kismayo. Do you still think this is a working model?

You people are not serious thinkers.

[galbeedi]

54 minutes ago, Illyria said:

The same applies to other FMSs. How does that differ from Siyad Barre?

I don't appreciate Jaalle Siyaad being compared to these guys managing one big city and few villages. Authoritarian rule could be tolerated if it is keeping the real peace, honoring the dignity of the nation with incremental economic progress. Siyaad barre went out of his way to liberate Somali Galbeed, but these morons could not travel to Jawhar or Baydhabo, yet go one thousand kilometers to Raaskaambooni to have their mischievous political reasons.

Few years back, I used to debate some reer Jubbland during the Farmaajo regime. Waxa ay dhi jireen, " Waar Farmaajow ama kaalay oo xoog nagu qabso, ama xeelad la imow, laakiin adigoo tabcaan ah ha noo hanjabin".

My own concept is that the Somali nomad was born free and must be allowed to room the land, talk and have the natural free will. Yet, no one could ignore  the natural anarchist tendencies of the Somali people. Somalis could develop and grow in a society of law and order. Personally, I would prefer a benevolent dictator who creates equal opportunity for the whole nation than corrupt elected oligarchy with no honor or national pride.

The dysfunction isn't only at the national level.  Somali regions including PUntland couldn't be taken seriously in terms of their goals of achieving confederacy or any other system before they  implementing basic credible governance and working institutions. There is no transparent tax collections, functioning justice system or reliable government services. 

Yet, looking the greedy nature of the Somali clans, the devaluation of power to the local people level is a must. Paying millions to the oligarchs and getting back nothing is very painful. As you mentioned when Puntland leadership was talking about building blocks from bottom up in in the late nineties to early 2000, we thought it was a political gimmick by late leader C/laahi Yusuf to challenge Mogadishu political monopoly , yet as times went by,  the federal thing seems to be the foundation now.  Xaaji and company will probably oppose any reforms and changes to keep the status quo. YEsterday it was " Xadka ha la soo Xidho, today it is " Ceerigaabo lama qaybin karo', iyo Awdal waa Somaliland., At least these Puntlanders are shuffling the decks ( Turbkay baandhaynayaan) and who knows they might inspire others who are tired of the Mogadishu quagmire. 

I am watching the next moves from Puntland to gage what is coming. If HSM stuffs' boxes from Hiiraan, Mogadishu  and Baydhabo, and then moves the capital to Caliyaale, many things are possible.

Anyway, the worst thing to happen for all of us is " Soomaali la kala gooyey". there is nothing bigger than to fight the dismemberment Somalia. If one want to fight for something , that is probably the most noble after your faith in Islam.

[Dhagax-Tuur]

Bluh bluh bluh, 

 

Waar Somali kala tagtey. Nin walbow tuuladaada.  

 

 

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

4 hours ago, galbeedi said:

I don't appreciate Jaalle Siyaad being compared to these guys managing one big city and few villages. Authoritarian rule could be tolerated if it is keeping the real peace, honoring the dignity of the nation with incremental economic progress. Siyaad barre went out of his way to liberate Somali Galbeed, but these morons could not travel to Jawhar or Baydhabo, yet go one thousand kilometers to Raaskaambooni to have their mischievous political reasons.

Few years back, I used to debate some reer Jubbland during the Farmaajo regime. Waxa ay dhi jireen, " Waar Farmaajow ama kaalay oo xoog nagu qabso, ama xeelad la imow, laakiin adigoo tabcaan ah ha noo hanjabin".

My own concept is that the Somali nomad was born free and must be allowed to room the land, talk and have the natural free will. Yet, no one could ignore  the natural anarchist tendencies of the Somali people. Somalis could develop and grow in a society of law and order. Personally, I would prefer a benevolent dictator who creates equal opportunity for the whole nation than corrupt elected oligarchy with no honor or national pride.

The dysfunction isn't only at the national level.  Somali regions including PUntland couldn't be taken seriously in terms of their goals of achieving confederacy or any other system before they  implementing basic credible governance and working institutions. There is no transparent tax collections, functioning justice system or reliable government services. 

Yet, looking the greedy nature of the Somali clans, the devaluation of power to the local people level is a must. Paying millions to the oligarchs and getting back nothing is very painful. As you mentioned when Puntland leadership was talking about building blocks from bottom up in in the late nineties to early 2000, we thought it was a political gimmick by late leader C/laahi Yusuf to challenge Mogadishu political monopoly , yet as times went by,  the federal thing seems to be the foundation now.  Xaaji and company will probably oppose any reforms and changes to keep the status quo. YEsterday it was " Xadka ha la soo Xidho, today it is " Ceerigaabo lama qaybin karo', iyo Awdal waa Somaliland., At least these Puntlanders are shuffling the decks ( Turbkay baandhaynayaan) and who knows they might inspire others who are tired of the Mogadishu quagmire. 

I am watching the next moves from Puntland to gage what is coming. If HSM stuffs' boxes from Hiiraan, Mogadishu  and Baydhabo, and then moves the capital to Caliyaale, many things are possible.

Anyway, the worst thing to happen for all of us is " Soomaali la kala gooyey". there is nothing bigger than to fight the dismemberment Somalia. If one want to fight for something , that is probably the most noble after your faith in Islam.

Who are they going aspire  they can’t aspire any one they can’t even aspire their own clan the gedo community let alone any one else

[Illyria]

10 hours ago, galbeedi said:

I don't appreciate Jaalle Siyaad being compared to these guys managing one big city and few villages. Authoritarian rule could be tolerated if it is keeping the real peace, honoring the dignity of the nation with incremental economic progress.

Valid point, but if given a chance Xasan's legacy in death and destruction would be unimaginable. Be careful though, like many, you might be suffering from Stockholm syndrome fondly reminiscing about the good old shackles of tyranny.

10 hours ago, galbeedi said:

My own concept is that the Somali nomad was born free and must be allowed to room the land, talk and have the natural free will. Yet, no one could ignore  the natural anarchist tendencies of the Somali people. Somalis could develop and grow in a society of law and order. Personally, I would prefer a benevolent dictator who creates equal opportunity for the whole nation than corrupt elected oligarchy with no honor or national pride.

On the free will of nomads, and freedom of peoples, best lessons could be learnt from the history of the Germanic people whom the Roman empire tried to tame, and never succeeded. What you are advocating for is someone like Bismarck (Prussia) or Tito (Yugoslav) to rise to unite the tribes / peoples, and if you think about it, that was what Federalism was intended to do for the Somalis, alas now that it has been hijacked, the page has to be turned to resuscitate it. Let the groups grow at own pace.

10 hours ago, galbeedi said:

The dysfunction isn't only at the national level.  Somali regions including PUntland couldn't be taken seriously in terms of their goals of achieving confederacy or any other system before they  implementing basic credible governance and working institutions. There is no transparent tax collections, functioning justice system or reliable government services.

Again, valid point. It takes far more to build, and lot less to destroy. Let me remind you though: had PL done in the 2000s what it is doing today, do you think there would have been light burning in Jawhar, Baydhaba, Dhusamareeb, Kismayo, let alone Xamar? The cost of those lights in said cities, more than any, has been borne by PL, which is what you might be forgetting.

           Why has not PL done a, b, c and so forth.  It had done more elsewhere, and the benefits are visible for all to reap in said cities. The biggest beneficiaries are reer SW ( A gentleman I know was a Sr army officer, who helped Shaatigaduud train and arm the RRA to liberate Bay & Bakool through Shaatigaduud's links with A Yusuf. He discusses the state of Baydhaba then, and now. Day and night. He lost an arm in those battles, and says it was all worth it).

         By the way, another credit to PL is to help SSCK dismantle the secessionist project. Now is the right time to award Makhir Sultanate the mantel of Garaad Dhidhin. Next, for reer Awdal.

Now, PL desires to refocus. Is Deni the right leader? I have reservations.

10 hours ago, galbeedi said:

I am watching the next moves from Puntland to gage what is coming. If HSM stuffs' boxes from Hiiraan, Mogadishu  and Baydhabo, and then moves the capital to Caliyaale, many things are possible

If you get a chance, read the story of Bangabandhu of Bangladesh, the man who popularised the phrase: "Friendship to all, and malice to none".

That is whence Xasan plagiarised the phrase "Somali heshiis ah, dunida la heshiis ah". He is a gimmick with dictatorial aspirations, and if given a chance, he'll wreak havoc far greater than ever.

          XX, MMA & Co are just kids, who grew up in households where no original idea has ever been debated let alone incubated, in other words, ciyaal edeg xaaraan lagu anqariyey! U malayn maayo in ay abid uriyeen habeed geel.