With Difficulty Comes Ease...

[Meiji]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

Nassir, spare me the nonsense replies and give me some real talk.

 

LX,

 

First and before I go into anything you wrote there I would like to make it clear that I am no fan of Sh. Sharif. I oppose all that the man stands for as much as Al Shabab do. I say this so that you bear it in mind when replying to me rather than making prejudgments or tailoring your replies for a Sh. Sharif supporter.

 

Now I come to your proofs. If I take them in isolation I will have no choice but to agree that Sh. Sharif has gone against what Allah has ordered and allied himself with non-Muslims. However, in Somali affairs, one cannot look at things in isolation. We have to look at the whole picture. Bear with me, saaxib. I am not here to convince you of anything; I am merely sharing my doubts and trying to find out the source of your unshakable certainty (the verses you supplied not withstanding of course).

 

I see you referring to Murtads, Apostates and Kafirs. I see you using as your proof some noble verses from the Holy book. But when I follow the Somali news, I

hear that your side (or the side that you sympathise with at least) have sought the help of Eritrea and its despot! Do you see why I am amazed at your certainty?

 

Again, my argument with you here is not about the rightness or wrongness of Al Shabab's fight. When cornered, I would probably choose them too over Sh. Sharif and his non-governing government. But that is only if I were cornered and even then it will come with a gigantic amount of doubt. It is only your certainty that concerns me here, saaxib. I personally do not believe such a certainty is healthy. I think doubt IS.

 

The Quran is very clear yet the scholars keep interpreting it in all manner of ways. How can one be immovably sure that one scholar is more correct than the other? An example here is the First Gulf War and how the Saudi scholars interpreted the collusion with America to liberate Kuwait. They simply regarded Saddam as an apostate and communist, and therefore sanctioned the alliance with America to defeat him. In reaching this decision, they quoted various instances from the Sunna (the battles of Bader, Khayber and Xuniin) to show that the prophet accepted the assistance of some Mushrikeen to defeat his enemies. Many scholars also argued that if Muslims feel threatened by a force of Kufur, they could indeed seek the help of Jews/Christians or whomever.

 

The above, sadly, is a charge that can easily be at the door of both Sh. Sharif and Al Shabab. Call it a play on words if you like. Call it

jadal

and rhetoric. Call it sophistry. But all those begin with a grain of truth that (maybe) is later distorted. It is that grain of truth that brings out the

Wiswas Khanas

in me and makes me wonder at your

utter certainty

, saaxib. You see, to my mind, both sides sought the help of outsiders. Both sides accuse the other of being apostates (in the case of Sh. Sharif, he calls Al Shabab Khwaraj and, according to many scholars the Khwaraj are considered kufar!).

 

You mentioned someone with a rational mind in your last reply. I believe I have a rational mind and my rational mind is as lost

as a Mullah in a whorehouse

, saaxib. Why should I take Al Shabab's word (in that Sh. Sharif is a murtad) over his word (in that Al Shabab are Khawaraj/Kufaar), when I can clearly see that things are not as straightforward as each side is saying?

Why do you

? How do you explain it?

 

I hope you don't duck these questions.

[Laba-X]

NG, sxb, take not this as an attempt to shape or force my opinions on you, rather as a healthy discussion based upon proofs and tangible evidence and I do apologize for my prejudgmental tones.

 

Now, instead of being amazed at my certainty, it would be judicious to test the reliability of the source of your news. The case you are referring to of Al-Shabaab seeking help from Eritrea is slightly misconstrued. As you are aware, Al-Shabaab was part of the ICU, although not officially declared 'Al-Shabaab' at the time. And it is true that Eritrea did supply arms as well as finances to the Islamic Courts. But the Shabaab, a small guerilla group at the time, did not hold any senior offices in the ICU makeup. They were clustered together; a militarily wing and often the internal strife of ICU was a result of the difference of objectives between the two parties.

 

After the infamous 9-day war had occurred and the relatively stable governance of the ICU had come to pass, things began clearing up and the bifurcation process began. Solidarity among groups was strengthened and the Shabaab members went farther South, thereby declaring independence from all groups. The crumbling ICU, was still receiving support from Eritrea and upon hearing that their toughest fighting wing had departed, they decided to sever all relations with them. The Shabaab were stranded. They were still in their infancy. No perfect organization and no stream of income! So they decided to start things from scratch, budding to what it is now, without extending their hands to Eritrea or any other entity. This is what I know of them, but if you have anything else to suggest that they did indeed seek help from Eritrea, I welcome it.

 

Now come to Sharif's apostasy. So you do agree that in isolation he is an apostate. Good. We are reaching somewhere. Now enlighten me on the bigger picture that somehow disapproves of his apostasy?

 

As for certainty, contrary to your belief, I hold the notion that to be certain and convinced of your conviction ought to be healthier and far more fulfilling than to be lurking in doubts. Of course if these convictions are justifiably held. A Muslim cannot have doubts in his belief. Having a doubt negates the condition of 'La Ilaaha illa-llaah'

 

The Gulf War had raised many issues. During the Soviet war in Afhagnistan, Saudi Arabia was preparing her youth, offering them incentives to participate in the Jihad in Afghanistan. At the airports, there were special offices to assist the youth who wanted to travel to Afghanistan. And all went smooth and well. But then America came and then the Saudi Jihad became illegal and came to be known as 'terrorism.' What is the difference between the Soviet and America that scholars should allowed Jihad in one and forbade in the other?

 

The Muslim scholars at the time differed. Most of the Scholars of the Sultan of course gave the fatwa that it was perfectly legal to keep an alliance with America in her war against Saddam. Heck, they even participated in the war let alone sanction it? Does this mean that they were right? Or were they protecting their interests and the advantages the alliance brought? The other scholars, of course denied this alliance. Scholars are not of the same caliber, saaxiib, and neither are they infallible. Their work will be taken only if it coincides with the texts of the Qur'an and Sunnah. Otherwise it will be rejected, just as the works of the khawaarij, Murji'ah, Jahmiya, Qadiriya, and so forth have been refuted and rejected.

 

See, my friend, this is a matter of Aqeedah. And Alwalaa wal baraa is the epitome of Aqeedah!

 

Many scholars also argued that if Muslims feel threatened by a force of Kufur, they could indeed seek the help of Jews/Christians or whomever.

substantiate your claims with evidence sxb!

[Fabregas]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

This is the epitome of ignorance.

Still much better than the muss of

this prisoner

Listen up Mate, chill out, relax:It's only words on a screen, words on a screen!

 

Ngonge, check this in your spare time: http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=ToRrqKahZ LM

[NGONGE]

LX,

Bin Jibreen and Bin Baz both spoke of alliance with kufar along the lines I mentioned above. I can post links an Arabic if you like (but don't want to waste my time and yours if you don't read Arabic).

 

 

ICU/Shabab different sides of the same coin, no?

 

Still, never mind that. What happened in the past can be blamed on the ICU. But was not the leader of Hizbuel Islam also one of the leaders of the ICU? Does not that (according to your logic) make him an apostate (for accepting the support of Eritrea)! Is he not today a partner of Al Shabab? Does that then mean Al Shabab are working with murtads?

 

Do you see why I question your certainty? The whole thing is a spider's web of confusion and fitna that I can not, for the life of me, understand how you keep your sanity and total certainty.

 

Doubt is good, walaal. It reminds you that you are human and eats away at you so that you always try to do the right thing. Without doubt there wont be any need for the Shaytaan (no need for acoodo bi allah...no point in qol acoodo bi rabi el naas, etc). Doubt is natural, saaxib.

 

Having doubt does NOT negate the condition of LA ILLAHA ILA ALLAH. One could have weak Iman and need to boost it up by reading the quran and hearing ALLAH reminding him of his (the almighty's) existance. I am sure you can recall countless verses that do just that. Only SHIRK negates the condition of LA ILLAHA ILA ALLAH, saaxib (and that's obvious in the words themselves).

 

The issue of the scholars of the sultan is one of speculation just as the issue of Asmara's support for Al Shabab is. One can not read what is in their hearts and therefore one can not be hasty with certain condemnation. But, nontheless, that they and others (including some in Somalia)turned a blind eye to the positions you hold or issued fatwas opposing them is a fact. What next? How do I get rid of my doubt and know that I am follwing the right people when/if I follow Al Shabab?

 

(Your angry declarations of kufir and ridda only increase my doubt).

 

Bal wax sheeg..

[Laba-X]

NG, the take of the above mentioned scholars on Operation Desert Storm was well founded. It was ijtihad on their part, so they get rightfully recompensed whether right or wrong. In this case they were wrong and they have been criticized for it too. Al-Albani rejected to sign the Fatwa when called as you recall. Scholars are not infallible.

 

You compare Hizb taking money from Eritrea to Sharif’s case. The latter is involved in a war against Islam and stood siding with the war on Islam. And you very well know that his legislations, despite his cries of ‘I rule by shari’ah,’ are not from the Qur’an. You heard the PM on VOA stating that they don’t have to rule by the shariah that permits cutting hands etc…

 

As for doubt, I was referring to doubt in the kufr of a kafir. It is a matter of aqeeda, like I said. Removing doubt and arriving at certainty is a condition of La ilaha illa-laah.

 

I am certain that you do not question Ibn Taymiyyah’s status in the annals of knowledge. Read up his work, for he was one scholar who never comprised the truth nor bargained his religion cheaply. And he did pay a hefty price for this truth to be propagated. His stance on the apostates was perhaps the firmest. He made it obligatory to fight them, even though they were building mosques and praying in them, stating that they were worse than the Romans and fighting them was even more virtuous. No peace agreements can be accorded to them nor covenants he maintained, they must be fought. When the Murji’ah came out in the battle of Shaqhab, loudly exclaiming, as they usually do, that the Tartar were Muslims and fighting them was Fitna and against Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah’s response was clear: "If you find me in the ranks hand of the Tatars, holding the Qur’an in my right then kill me!” The situation of the Muslims today is the same as it was then. And just as it was at that time, the scholar, too, differ!

 

One can not read what is in their hearts and therefore one can not be hasty with certain condemnation.

…This is a big statement from you yaa NG.A really big one. Do not become ensnared into this deadly trap, sxb! This is the erroneous reasoning of the Murji’ah and Jahmiyya who reduce the entire concepts of belief and disbelief to the mere acceptance and denial of the heart alone! We do not make any judgments in life except with that which is apparent. Let a man swear a hundred oaths to testify that his heart is overflowing with Eeman, if his outward actions are actions of Kufr and clear evidence is in light against him, there is not a shred of doubt about his Kufr. We judge by the apparent, just as the Prophet (s.a.w) expressed that he was not sent to rip open people’s hearts! Sxb, if it walks like kufr, acts like kufr and smells like kufr – it must be Kufr!

 

And unlike the Khawarij, who believe that people of corrupt religion are doomed into hell fire for the major sins they committed, everyone is a Muslim as long as he does not commit that which is a nullifier of Islam. And the nullifiers of Islam are many and include supporting the polytheists against the Muslims. And one cannot be expelled from Islam or be called a Murtad simply because of doubt or suspicion unless certainty is established. Are we not certain that by supporting Americas proxy war on Islam and Muslims worldwide and by aiding the occupying African troops in Mogadishu who continue to indiscriminately bombard the civilian population the man has committed a nullifier of great magnitude?

 

Qadi Iyad said:

 

“Declaring the blood of those who pray, who are upon Tawxiid to be permissible is a serious danger”, but is Sharif a man on Tawxiid? If you insist that he is a man of Tawxiid, then the law of contradiction applies: two states cannot coexist in a man! He cannot be a Mu’min and a Mushrik at the same time. So which one is it? And just as it is erroneous and grave to declare a man of Tawxiid Kaafir, it is equally grave to call Muslim someone who has left the fold of Islam.

 

(Your angry declarations of kufir and ridda only increase my doubt).

…Akhi, my statements should not hinder you from seeking the truth. They are inconsequential of course, so if you are serious about the subject, try doing a little more research into the matter and be not swayed by sentiment.

 

And how do you get rid of your doubt you ask? The only way to get rid of your inherent doubts is to honestly study the subject in the light of the Qur’an and Sunnah following the exegeses and understanding of the text by the pious predecessors and those who followed them in righteousness.

 

There is nothing left out in the Qur’an…

 

 

Wa-salaam…

[NGONGE]

Thanks for the civil reply, saaxib. Despite your well-intentioned efforts, my doubt remains. And despite my feeble efforts, your certainty is immovable. I probably can't see the woods for the trees or you're probably mistaking a flashlight for the Sun. Bal give me time to think it over. I'll either reach the solid ground you're standing on or may just manage to make your flashlight flicker.

[Laba-X]

Most Welcome Sxb! The feelings is mutual. Indeed one of us has grabbed the wrong end of the stick. Me I am certain. You, you remain dubious. Either way, I welcome your efforts to flicker this flashlight.

 

Time you have plenty, walaal, but be sure to reach a conclusion after your quest for the truth has come to an end. Man cannot afford to be dwelling in the labyrinthine chasms of doubt. After investigation he either becomes enlighted by the truth he'd discovered or remains perplexed in his benighted state. I sincerely wish for you the former and eagerly await your findings.

 

on a lighter note, though I admire your analytical tones, neutrality can sometimes be damagine yaa NG!

 

May Allah guide us all to the right path. in search of it, many have become disoriented and lost in the maze of other paths. I pray that Allah guides us to it, for it leads to salvation from the ever-raging fire.

 

until then...

[UZTAAD]

hollow , laboxinooyood and Ngong, having read both of your post I am the third empire if you know some thing about cricket. Mr Ngong you're 100% right , mr laba xiniinyood it is wicket {out} ka bax ciyaarta waa lagaa raayey where is the next batsman.

[Haatu]

I don't understand how they can claim suicide bombing is allowed when clearly it is HARAM!!!

[kyz]

they know it Haraam but they dont care about it they want money and power though any means posible whether it is halaal or haraam that is not their bussines .Alshabaab is not islamic movement it is aterror business it same as any other illegal bussines like drug bussiness or piracy.

[Dhagax-Tuur]

as a Mullah in a whorehouse!

Bal Faruur maxaa Berbera geeyey isaga?.