Women 'get blame for being raped'

[Castro]

^ TJ, raping even a board certified and licenced slut is a crime. Unless he/she is on the clock and specifically asks "do you wanna have a good time?" and then proceeds to show you his/her office (or other work area), and after having agreed on the price and a payment method can you even see him/her naked. Sluts are business people. Don't forget that.

[Faarax-Brawn]

Please explain how it would contribute to rape?

An explanation is normally required when someone makes an assertion. I merely asked a question from a statistical point. I therefore dont see the need to expound on this matter.

 

I have catagorically agreed with you on who is at fault on this issue. No woman has to get blamed for the acts of a perverted individual.

 

However;In my opinion i beleive that if prooven,Even by the smallest margin,that the way a woman dresses triggers off the mind of a rapist, then indeed every woman should pay attention.

 

By merely saying that a perveted psychotic man should control his desires at the risk of getting raped,is indeed a devil-may-care attitude.

[Tuujiye]

good point Faarax...

 

wareer Badanaa!!!

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Tuujiyee:

By DA...

quote:I really despise the "women should cover up so as to NOT turn on men and therefore get raped by them"...

WHY?.......why don't you explain why you despise that?..... Like it or not they are sick horny men out there.

Because it is a weak argument. It takes part of the blame that's supposed to go to the HORNY CRIMINAL and places it on the women. By the way, those sick horny men will still exist even if you put ALL women under the niqaab.

 

Sorry, it is a weak and SEXIST argument to make. Sorry!

[Tuujiye]

lol.. you are right wiligood wee jirayaan.. take a look a sucuudiga.. abkee quranka aduunka ayaa joogaan.. even men dressed like woman ayaa jiraan. My momther seen hookers neer the kacba the KACBA!!! in Hajj time.. so men are naturaly born with what we call "Kacsi" 24fr.. sorry for my saqajanimo people... so therefore women make it worse by dressing in a way that attracts them..

 

By the way DA.. you didn't answer my question you just repeated your self twise or my 3times.. Waz your point??????

 

Wareer Badanaa!!!

[Viking]

Originally posted by x_quizit:

Viking-I see where you are going with the hijab and how that can act as a deterrent, but sadly that's not always the case, so what now? How will u console those women who were fully dressed, what will u tell them caused the rape? U see, its never the victim's fault, its always the rapists, the sooner we get that, the sooner we may help to prevent those men from raping in the future by coming up with feasable solutions and dealing with their control issues rather than pointing the finger at the woman.

 

Putting the blame on the woman victimizes her all over again, not only is she raped by the offender, but by the justice system/society as well. And we wonder why most rape cases aren't reported. :rolleyes:

X,

With criminals, the most important factor is opportunity! It is easier for the rapist to take advantage of a drunk woman wearing a mini-skirt walking down a dark street at 3 am. This is a common sight in the west. Now, to blame this woman after she was raped is wrong because she didn't ask to be raped, but she has to take some responsibility and precautions in order not to make herself an 'easy target'.

 

As for the woman wearing a hijab who is raped, the circumstances can hardly be the same as the non-Muslim who is making her way home after a night out drinking. As I've heard, a lot of Asian (esp. Philipino and Malay) women are raped in the Middle Eastern countries. The perpetrators are usually *******s living in the household (or employers who have access to their living quarters) who take advantage of these women because they are well aware that the laws in their region doesn't protect them.

 

According to the Bible, a man who rapes a woman is forced to marry her. Who is being punished here you wonder?? The traumatised woman is sentenced to live with the man who raped her for the rest of her life. Islam is clear on this, women should dress modestly and men should lower their gaze. In an ideal Muslim society, a man can not argue that the woman is somehow to be blamed simply because she was not wearing full hijab. The woman can not be held accountable for the rapist's actions, but for hers' only. It is common sense that a woman (westerner - since Muslims are not supposed to do it at all) should not wear provocative clothes and stagger home late by herself after a night out drinking; just as you wouldn't wear visible bling bling in a neighbourhood where you know you can be robbed or even killed for it.

 

The stats used in the survey convey the thoughts of westerners but people here are reacting as if Muslims decided this.

 

Originally posted by Callypso:

For those who still give some credence to the idea that the woman is partly to blame, answer the question I asked Seeker: Serbian soldiers gang-raped Muslim women who presumably were far more conservatively dressed than their own women. How much blame would you ascribe to the women? I mean only

some

of the Muslim women got raped, so the ones that did must have been doing

something

wrong that the others avoided, right?

Callypso,

This is a ridiculous example, take a moment and you'll see why. You are comparing times of war when there is no govt, no police or army to protect the people and no justice system to see to your rights. During times like these, people are killed, maimed, robbed, their properties taken by force etc. Plus, Serbs were raping Muslims because an ethnic cleansing was taking place. Muslims were also the ones massacred and buried in mass graves. These crimes were committed against them because they were simply Muslims! In this anarchic instance, it is soldiers and not your average sickos that were the rapists.

 

Originally posted by Devil's Advocate:

I really despise the "women should cover up so as to NOT turn on men and therefore get raped by them"...

Devil's Advocate,

The Qur'an says that women should cover up so that they be known and not molested. This is not something that people on SOL made up and doesn't mean that any woman who covers up is guaranteed safety from sick individuals who have no respect for Allah SWT and other human beings.

 

 

The question remains, can women take any precautions at all? For example...(we are talking western women)...

 

-not flirt with strangers

-dress less provocatively

-drink less

-not to walk in dark alleys (esp late in the nights) and preferebly not alone if they can be walked or driven home

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by Castro:

^ Absolutely not. Not under any circumstance. If the ultimate goal is to procreate, I've enough charm, good looks and wit to entice any (ok, some) woman to have kids with me (though I'm now done having kids). I would not resort to rape for any reason.

Heh. I’ve got to admit to my naivety and inexperience in these matters but I could have sworn that SEX, of any kind, normally, has no reason. It is after all, or so I thought, a basic urge. Intellectually or morally one might argue for the case of SEX being purely a means to an end (i.e. having children, preserving the family name, etc). However, one would imagine that your average men and women do not engage in sex to procreate but rather, for the simple pleasure of it (note how I’m deliberately avoiding the Halaal & Haraam issue and the rape angle for now).

 

Now, I return to my view that rape is something most of us are capable of doing and if put in the right environment, many of us would easily succumb to it. It’s an issue of values and morals. Many of us don’t rob, steal or loot because we fear the law rather than believing that such acts are immoral. Ever watch a riot, earthquake or disaster? Are all the people engaging in immoral acts really the criminal and corrupted or are there many of us ‘good citizens’ right there amongst them? What prompts all these people to appear the minute law and order break down? (Loaded and very rhetorical question, I know).

 

You might think I’m going off on a tangent here, however, I believe it’s a lot more useful to expand this topic than harp on about fashion and dress sense. Besides, the dress sense argument seems to centre round the premise that prevention is better than the cure. Which, it is I suppose. However, does it also mean that those that take no heed of ‘prevention’ have nobody but themselves to blame when they meekly cry for a cure? Surely that’s the only subtext of such an argument!

 

Still, like I said, better expand on this debate. Those that have no values or morals will always rape, steal and pillage. Many of us believe that we have it all under control but what guarantee do you have for this? Surely one can’t comment on an action without having contemplated it and covered all the options! Have you actually sat down and thought of reasons why you should not indulge yourself and go on a raping spree?

 

You see, most of our values and beliefs are influenced by other people’s opinions. An example of this is all the statistics that have been thrown about earlier in the thread. 99% of people think this! 85% of respondents think that! 5% of rape victims think the other!

 

All are mere opinions on the subject and none deal with any elements of morality. How many of the respondents to these questions have done so without passion? Does unanimity imply correctness?

 

We need laws, codes and simple rules for the lazy, ignorant and obtuse to blindly follow. However, he that seeks to understand life better, should never be satisfied with replies such as ‘because this is the way it has always been or because such and such said so’.

 

 

Of course, in an ideal Islamic society, the women would cover up and the men would lower their gaze while all along everyone would know why even if the females didn’t cover up and males didn’t lower their gaze, rape would not take place. It, simply, is not just. And, in a faith where we all strive for justice and fairness (the cornerstones of piety) it would be absurd if we transgressed so much as to rape a semi clad woman. Her naked body might stir your urges but her naked morals should, under normal circumstances, disgust you. Having said that, and from personal experience, half-naked women only seemed attractive to me when I lived in a land where most women are (almost) fully covered. Nowadays, it’s the fully covered woman that usually catches my eye (particularly if she’s sitting under a tree in a beach somewhere). Still, my wretched values prevent me from ever approaching her.

[Viking]

Two minutes apart...

 

Originally posted by Viking:

Islam is clear on this, women should dress modestly and men should lower their gaze. In an ideal Muslim society...

Originally posted by NGONGE:

Of course, in an ideal Islamic society, the women would cover up and the men would lower their gaze

:eek: :eek:

[Cara.]

Viking,

 

Callypso,

This is a ridiculous example, take a moment and you'll see why. You are comparing times of war when there is no govt, no police or army to protect the people and no justice system to see to your rights. During times like these, people are killed, maimed, robbed, their properties taken by force etc. Plus, Serbs were raping Muslims because an ethnic cleansing was taking place. Muslims were also the ones massacred and buried in mass graves. These crimes were committed against them because they were simply Muslims! In this anarchic instance, it is soldiers and not your average sickos that were the rapists.

No, Viking. You missed the point. It has nothing to do with laws or government or even average sickos. The subtext from a few posters is that rapists are men who could not control their sexual urges at the sight of a scantily-clad female. My point is that rape is a method to humiliate a woman or to exercise control. Those Serbs are essentially doing the same thing when they massacre those Muslims and when they raped their women. Both were elements of violence against people they wanted to destroy. Line up the men and shoot them, rape the women. If rape was about being brought to a fever pitch by women dressing provocatively, the women of Bosnia would not be targetted because the soldiers had nothing to excite them. They would just have been shot dead like the men.

 

And that image you drew of a Western victim as a slutty drunk in a dark alley by herself...I wonder, could a hijab covered sober girl walk in a dark alley safely? Aren't you confounding factors here?

 

You mentioned Asian maids getting raped and/or molested by their Saudi employers. You obviously understand that the reason these employers are doing so is because they know they can get away with it. The vulnerability here comes from the lack of legal protection, not the scarcity of clothing. A man fearing reprisals will not rape a naked woman dancing in front of him. But a man confident that society will turn the other way will target any woman, no matter how she comports herself.

[bilan]

are you guys suggesting that men can not control their desire? so we need to protect those sick men and find excuses for them,instead of locking them up or executing them. both men and women should be able to control their desire,if they fail to do that,the only solution is: have them isolated from the society.also those men who are trying to find excuses for rapists,what are your execuses for men who rape women are covered from head to toe in muslim countries?

[Cara.]

Ngonge,

 

Now, I return to my view that rape is something most of us are capable of doing and if put in the right environment, many of us would easily succumb to it.

I wouldn't. Anymore than I would break into someone's home during civil unrest. Because it's wrong. Perhaps some people do follow laws out of fear of punishment, but some of us have finely tuned moral engines that stop us from succumbing to most temptations. Unfortunately.

 

Baashi,

 

Even if she is so inviting so provacative and showers u with kisses going all over u half-naked in the privacy of her room making u all worked up and aroused ...but last minute when going gets lovely and Castro reaches the point of no return she makes a u-turn and says NO PLZ STOP! In this situation, r u claiming that u would not be a human?

Okay, let's carry on the scenario. She's crying and struggling, maybe lashing out and kicking, so you slap her just to stun her, and you maybe have to punch her in the belly to stop the struggling, and then you remove the rest of her clothing, she stirs a little, maybe feebly pulls her legs together. Hmmm, maybe you have to hit her a couple of times more, now she's crying even harder and ARE YOU STILL AROUSED?

[Castro]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

Nowadays, it’s the fully covered woman that usually catches my eye (particularly if she’s sitting under a tree in a beach somewhere). Still, my wretched values prevent me from ever approaching her.

 

Ilaahay afar cisho hayskakaa daayo, atheer.

[- Femme -]

It's really sad the way a woman is made to feel ashamed of being raped. That single act would effect the rest of her life---her confidence, self esteem, sense of security, her health (stds?) relationshiops, intimacy with future spouse. It's not something to be taken lightly and most people would rather be silent than be treated as if they pulled up their skirts and directed the rapist to their crotch. Unfortunately thats how many woman are viewed when she confesses ....what were you doing? where were you? what were you wearing? did you do anything to provoke him? did you seek his attention? When the most important question should be....can you direct him to me? & how much torture should I apply before I kill him?

 

Personally if I was raped (God forbid) I wouldn't tell anyone. I'd rather keep my 'shame' inside and go on with my life. Because more often than not, the rapist isnt convicted or gets out of jail in less than 5 years while the stigma stick you the woman's for the rest of her life.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Callypso:

No, Viking. You missed the point. It has nothing to do with laws or government or even average sickos. The subtext from a few posters is that rapists are men who could not control their sexual urges at the sight of a scantily-clad female. My point is that rape is a method to humiliate a woman or to exercise control. Those Serbs are essentially doing the same thing when they massacre those Muslims and when they raped their women. Both were elements of violence against people they wanted to destroy. Line up the men and shoot them, rape the women. If rape was about being brought to a fever pitch by women dressing provocatively, the women of Bosnia would not be targetted because the soldiers had nothing to excite them. They would just have been shot dead like the men.

Callypso,

I stand by my point, you can not compare what goes on during war-time to the "normal" peaceful society one finds him/herself in. The reasons for rapes during wartime is probably more similar to the house-keepers...they know they can get away with it! The humiliation is probably a bonus for these animals.

 

Originally posted by Callypso:

And that image you drew of a Western victim as a slutty drunk in a dark alley by herself...I wonder, could a hijab covered sober girl walk in a dark alley safely? Aren't you confounding factors here?

I listed various precautions that could be undertaken in order to minimise the risk as much as possible. Avoid flirting, dark alleys, dressing provocatively and drinking alcohol. Every weekend, millions of females in the west combine these "risk-factors" which puts them at great risk. You somehow sidelined three factors and put a hijabed woman in the dark alley...which if you think logically, would put her at risk.

 

Originally posted by Callypso:

You mentioned Asian maids getting raped and/or molested ...The vulnerability here comes from the lack of legal protection, not the scarcity of clothing.

Wasn't I saying the same thing? :confused:

[Baashi]

Callypso,

 

That was a hypothetical question. I do not excuse rapists in any way, shape, or form. I shall repeat that statement lest it does not get through ur skull. I don't excuse them period. Rape is a crime just like murder is. However, as any criminal act, intentions matter. So is the victims actions prior the commison of the crime. Just so you know, in the law, generally speaking aiding and abeting a criminal act is in itself a crime.

 

In that hypothetical scenario, the victim induced the agressor to commit the crime. Still he is guilty of the crime. However, the victiom has a hand in the commission of the crime. Noh? That was not the point I was trying to convey though. Castro made a very strong statement. I was trying to remind him that he is human and there are instances where sexual urge might cloud one's judgment.

 

Gotta go...