PEACEKEEPERS TO DEPLOY WITH OR WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF WARLORDS.

[NASSIR]

Thanks Rahima. I cherish the day to see these houses and farms again.

 

 

The country is beset by extreme poverty and years of civil wars have destroyed its infrastructure. A humanitarian emergency in several regions has been compounded by the tsunami which hit the north-east coast in December. The transitional government and parliament plan to relocate from Kenya to Somalia as soon as security permits. When it does, one of the most pressing issues will be how to address and punish the crimes and crimes against humanity committed by warlords who are now part of the government, without jeopardizing the government's viability.

 

Press Release AMNESTY

[Rahima]

Xoogsade,

 

Yeah the process is going ahead as I write, thank god my father is buying it from a friend of his.

 

 

Its about the folks from Hobyo who live there essentially 'occupy' the city because they came there with their guns. They impose rules and have clan-based administration in different fiefdoms within the city, all with utter disregard for the local (native) population. The same is true in Marka and other cities in the South.

This is exactly what I was speaking of; I do believe that I was spot on with your point. Brother as I said:

 

No one is holding anyone hostage, every man in Mogadishu is working for himself.

Wind talker, if we choose to speak reality and not throw accusations of tribalism, the progression of the city is primarily being made by reer mudug/galduud (I am generalizing for many of the original inhabitants are also making a difference). As you know, the city is divided in two, one the original inhabitants the other reer/hobyo-galgadud, with most other tribes generally living on the latter of the two sides (with reer mudug/galgadud). This is the honest truth. All of the major institutions be they schools, hospitals, universities or businesses are generally run and owned by reer/Mudug-galgadud (of course once again there are others, but I speak on general terms). With all this being the case, the original inhabitants still live with reer mudug/galgadud with no animosity between the two based on tribe. Tribe is done with in Mogadishu; each man like I said is out for his own.

 

Whilst I do not support any of these warlords establishing any regional government, if they so happen to be successful, I shall accept and support them (just like I support CY, anything for stability and governorship). If also by chance that the leaders happen to be of reer mudug/galgadud then why not, any person who is a rightful respectful citizen of the city deserves to run for the position. You my brother are going under the assumed fact that there is some sort of rivalry or animosity between the average folks of these two tribes. These two tribes are to each other like the two tribes of Bosaasso and LA are, just like they why can they not come under the same banner? Comparing the situation in Mogadishu to that in LA is just ludicrous, the people of LA do not want SL, how is that you automatically assume the people of Mogadishu do not want to be ruled by a reer Mudug-galgadud man simply because of the region which he hails from?

 

If the people of Mogadishu refuse for any person to be a leader then I am with them, but to cry foul before any such sentiments have been shown by them is just plain wrong. You assume too much, Mogadishu (aside from those sickening warlords and supporters) is so done with tribalism and negative tribal efforts. I have complete confidence that the folks of Mogadishu would accept a reer mudug/galgadud man if they felt that he would serve their interests to the best of his capabilities, this is what matters.

 

All in all, no regional government especially in area inhabited by so many tribes like Mogadishu is would be made up of just one tribe. Obviously, such efforts would result in an equal representation.

 

Thanks Rahima. I cherish the day to see these houses and farms again.

Join the club

[wind.talker]

Originally posted by Rahima:

Whilst I do not support any of these warlords establishing any regional government, if they so happen to be successful, I shall accept and support them (just like I support CY, anything for stability and governorship). If also by chance that the leaders happen to be of reer mudug/galgadud then why not, any person who is a rightful respectful citizen of the city deserves to run for the position. You my brother are going under the assumed fact that there is some sort of rivalry or animosity between the average folks of these two tribes.

I don't understand why you're arguing here. You're saying your AGAINST the warlords establishing a regional gov't for Benadir (unless it happens to be a successful one - but, from history, we can rule out success because which warlord is willing to relinquish power to appease another one?). Of course any conscious Somali will support peace and unity in Muqdisho (or anywhere else in Somalia).

 

BUT, you're still managing your way around my real question. You're saying that its okay for a Mudug/Galguud original (or anywhere else for that matter) to rule Muqdisho. How's that okay? A truly meaningful gov't for Benadir would be mostly composed of Benadiris - which excludes Reer Mudug/Galgaduud or anyone else. It makes more sense if the city's leaders are natives. Besides, its contrary to your earlier statement about NOT SUPPORTING warlord-led (read: Hobyo folk) regional gov't.

 

Secondly, for you to say that there's no animosity between these two USC sub-clans just shows how naive you are to Somali politics. I'll leave it at that.

 

P.S. Its good to know that USC-Hobyo-inhabited Muqdisho is doing well for itself. What of the other side?

[Rahima]

I don't understand why you're arguing here.

Because you felt the need to roll up he good and the bad of “reer hobyo†into one bundle. We need to make a distinction for every tribe has the good and the bad.

 

You're saying that its okay for a Mudug/Galguud original (or anywhere else for that matter) to rule Muqdisho. How's that okay?

You’re right, that is exactly what I am saying. So long as this group are decent god-fearing individuals who are after the best interests of the people which they lead and have the support of those they lead, then yes why not? I would say this irrespective of which region they originally hailed from. I would say the same even if it were a "somalilander".

 

The problem with your reasoning is that you suggest that the folks of Mogadishu would automatically reject the possibility of a leader who has his roots in Hobyo simply because they will view it as an occupation. Like I said, you assume too much.

 

Secondly, for you to say that there's no animosity between these two USC sub-clans just shows how naive you are to Somali politics. I'll leave it at that.

You see, I’m not exactly judging by the views of those demented warlords and there just as demented supporters, rather like I said I was speaking of the average person. Trust me brother, in Somalia, the average person is busy working for their livelihood and will associate with anyone so long as they serve their best interests, qabiil is minor to most. Like I’ve said before, those who seem so engrossed in qabiil are not the ones back home, but rather those of us sitting comfortably in our homes in the west, sending back hundreds of thousands of dollars per year so that these same demented warlords can create more havoc which ultimately ends up killing those who don’t care for these qabiil issues anyway.

[General Duke]

I must agree with Wind on this one. If there was a vote in Banadir i belive the majority clan would win and thus form an administration.

 

Rahima does protest too much. If a free and fair elections took place, the clan from Hobyo would have representatives in banadir but the leadership of the state and city of Mogadishu would undoubtably go to the majority clan of banadir.

 

If this same phenomenon was to occur in the other lower region I doubt Yusuf Inda Cade would be voted to power in Marka and Barava.

[Rahima]

^No surprise there, it is Duke after all!

 

The difference between you and I is that I believe that the average person in Mogadishu is so done with tribe that they will ultimately go with whoever is after their best interests, region or tribe is meaningless.

 

Of course this is under the assumption that free and fair elections took place, but then again Somali are allergic to fairness.

[Emperor]

Rahima

The difference between you and I is that I believe that the average person in Mogadishu is so done with tribe that they will ultimately go with whoever is after their best interests

Are you sure, and what about other Somali regions? How did you measure this belief of yours? Based on what experiment have you done that ultimately gave you this result?

 

So done with tribe??? What do u mean please, I heard that Hawiyistan government is in form there with ten worlords controlling one City. Also, im a bit lost in the world of Mogadishowers interest.. Help me

 

Just an honest view

[NASSIR]

Originally posted by Rahima:

(with reer mudug/galgadud). This is the honest truth. All of the major institutions be they schools, hospitals, universities or businesses are generally run and owned by reer/Mudug-galgadud (of course once again there are others, but I speak on general terms).

rahima , how would you compensate the Mogadisho residents whose properties were inherited by Galgaduud people? This is a perplexing question that will forever resound in the minds of most Business owners in Mogadisho. It duly haunts them: People who fled Mogadisho will come back and reclaim their own assets if it is land, house, hotels, restaurants. And do you agree to the formation of Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Somalia?

[Rahima]

Are you sure, and what about other Somali regions? How did you measure this belief of yours? Based on what experiment have you done that ultimately gave you this result?

Aside from the fact that I expressed it as a belief and not necessarily factual, I came to this conclusion on my recent trip to Somalia. Before my trip I reasoned that the people in Somalia must be the evil ones for then how could it be that these warlords are in power, they must all be tribalistic, after the trip I now know that even for those who are by their side many (especially the young men) don’t believe that they have an alternative (which I believe is the responsibility of the government to restore hope in the younger generation). Anyway, as I mingled with the people (believe you me I did that, I wanted the most exposure to life at home) as far as politics and warlords were concerned, the people were tired. They wanted a functioning government that would work for their interests; the fact that CY (an ex-warlord) was leading it did not matter to them. Likewise, these warlords had almost next to no influence on the lives of the average person and hence did not contribute to the war effort (the dispute in Mudug)-most of the money actually comes from overseas. Even the businessmen were so against this evil effort that they refused to pay the qaaraan and were receiving threats if they did not pay up- the people have realized that these people do not care for them. This is how I came to this conclusion .

 

Nevertheless it is my opinion!

 

What do u mean please, I heard that Hawiyistan government is in form there with ten worlords controlling one City. Also, im a bit lost in the world of Mogadishowers interest.. Help me

You are asking the wrong person really. I don’t know anything about it. All I know is that they are scum and my stance is that if they do form a regional administration then I support it for that is better than nothing.

 

And do you agree to the formation of Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Somalia?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no! Whilst I believe that it would be fantastic to make things right, I believe it is too hard for Somalis. We are a people full of corruption and pathological liars (the leaders anyway). If it serves the best interest of Somalis and Somalia and if it will create harmony then yes I support, if however if will create greater rifts then no. This is why I disagree with Somalis in the diaspora trying to sue or penalize mps of the last government, it serves no real purpose. With this though, the problems are still impending and it may serve of purpose- it all depends on how the commission handles the situation. I have yet to make up my mind, but under ideal conditions, heck yeah!

 

rahima , how would you compensate the Mogadisho residents whose properties were inherited by Galgaduud people? This is a perplexing question that will forever resound in the minds of most Business owners in Mogadisho. It duly haunts them: People who fled Mogadisho will come back and reclaim their own assets if it is land, house, hotels, restaurants.

We all agree that occupying the lands/business of others is wrong- I want to establish this before I get accusations flying in my face. As a Muslim to say otherwise would be a sin.

 

With that being said, as you know many in Mogadishu have changed (as has the whole of the country). Religiously speaking there was a war declared by the religious community of Mogadishu on the illegal occupation of peoples lands and you will now see that either many ex-Mogadishuites have sold their land (like many SLs and PLs) or are having it looked after by family members or close friends. Once we have a functioning government all will get their lands back (those that are illegally occupied)- that I have faith in .

[Emperor]

Rahima

 

I must give it to you for you have the courage to reason, impressed i must say ....

 

Back to my question towards your "belief". Before I say anything, I care to remind us that we are in the Politics section. In this part of the world communities, countries and tribes do have rulers/leaders that represent them. It's only commonsense that sometimes these rules have no real back up from the people but not always this is the case, certainly not the case you posted(Based on My conscience). Forexample Im a SL/PL, we know many people live in that corner of the world, we knwo that they are represented by Riyale and others like Mr Waraabe and in Puntland Adde Muse or you may say A.yusuf(if this may help your case being a warlord as of your "belief") as their leaders. It's true that the avarage people on the streets of this areas are not in support of their leaders decision in one hundred parecent, nor do they agree in anything and to say there are some that even oppose their rule at all, but ultimately this people will come under the banner and become followers, considered together in what their leaders decide. A Somalilander can not dare say he/they never fough Puntland and claim it was Riyaale's decision, no can a Puntlander say that, even thou they might be against the fight in personal opinion. Same goes for the western world, Neither English nor American persons can claim that they never attacked or invaded iraq but it was single decision took by Bush and Blair.... No Walaalo in Politics it doens'nt work like this, Infact the average people in UK were opposed to the Iraq war but still are all together in this...British people, Government, Media etc are all considered to be as invaders of another country just a decision of one Man, and It's Tony Blair the only viw person that represents this country politically and conveys it's messages to world irrelevant of the avarage poeple on the street. The average people of any community do not count but what leaders of that community say do count, Politics it is...

 

Back to your reply, good points raised but to my avail, it was based on Holliday trip experience and the opinions or desire of the normal people on the street(Which by the way im not sure whether what you said was correct or not, but let me say so they are). Another big mistake, if the people there are Shariifyaal but with bad representation then what a contradiction this would be...

 

 

Likewise, these warlords had almost next to no influence on the lives of the average person and hence did not contribute to the war effort

but still they have them as leaders, or are you in denial to this.

 

As I said counts not what the people on the street in Bosaso think but what the Mayor of the city says. It does not matter to Somaliland what the average Puntlanders think of the disputed land, but what decisions will General Cadde take to solve the problem, either by war or negotiations.

 

You are asking the wrong person really. I don’t know anything about it.

I don't know whether you are dismissing my earlier comment here, or are you now admitting that you have no idea of what happening not to forget you had the good news for us from our capital.

 

All I know is that they are scum and my stance is that if they do form a regional administration then I support it for that is better than nothing.

Scum we know, do form? not sure about it, Surely at that point in no doubt that I will share the support and rejoice with you. But I guess is never too late to learn in this case form an administration, but how long will you wait?? Oh sorry to ask you personally, how long will the avarage poeple in Mogadishu based on your observation are they willing to wait for this administration to be formed??? As long as it takes I suppose

 

No im not trying to be harsh but honest, I know it was your own opion but will you just try to pass it to me...

 

Caamir, Sxb what are you on about... The place's got no real system, havoc everywhere and lost every hope to restore order, and you want Commisions... bal ukaadi horta meesha Systemkeeda iyo Administration haloo dhisee...Markaas wixi kale..

 

Just give a time when commonsense gets back then anything is possible..

[NASSIR]

Originally posted by Rahima

Religiously speaking there was a war declared by the religious community of Mogadishu on the illegal occupation of peoples lands and you will now see that either many ex-Mogadishuites have sold their land (like many SLs and PLs) or are having it looked after by family members or close friends. Once we have a functioning government all will get their lands back (those that are illegally occupied)- that I have faith in

It’s mandatory to the facts that history must repeat itself. The Kor’anic verse stating that we were created from the earth, you will go back to earth , and thus, you should be raised from the earth. Why are we linking the Qur’anic verse and the history repeating itself? Of course history is something that we have been thought and learned, and thus, mankind has repeated it again and again. We mean to say those who flee Mogadisho must be redeemed and it shall come to pass the redemption of Mogadisho.

[Rokko]

Originally posted by Xoogsade:

Rahima, You better buy [THE FARMLAND] now if you can find one before the whole corrupt system comes back where if you don't have someone in higher-ups, you aren't going to get land to cultivate. One of the reasons people are apprehensive about this government is the possibility of being thrown back into the crippling corrupt systems you had to go through to get anything done while someone who has got nothing is given the resources, money and the land to cultivate. That is how it used to be. Some are complaining now about others, but in the early days, the same thing had been done only under the cover of a government.

Listen to this brotha na'mean.

 

Is this brotha tellin sister Rahima to get corrupted and buy missing people's property while the USC militia is controlling the farmlands?

 

Rahima don't do it na'mean. Ya must do a good research before ya buy any because many dudes(different clans) were either forced to sell the land or they just abandoned fearing for their lives na'mean.

[wind.talker]

Too many folks on Rahima's case. I just wanna say one thing sxb: you've gotta know the distinction between the "average person" and the "leader" of Mogadishu/Benadir.

 

i.e. What are the chances of a former Senator from Texas (who's been a decent, God-fearing citizen of Chicago for the past 15 years) winning the Chicago mayoral race?

 

Let's subsitute words:

 

What are the chances of a politician from Hobyo (or Boorama, or Kismaayo, or Baardheere) - and who's been a decent, God-fearing citizen of Muqdisho for the past 15 years - winning a mayoral election in Muqdisho (provided it was free and fair)?

 

Remember, he'll be competing against a native (born and raised in Muqdisho, or Chicago in the above example). Provided both candidates are of the same education level, public service etc.

 

I'll bet my money on the native ANY DAY. And that's the point I was trying to deliver to you this entire time: the chances are slim-to-none of Reer Muqdisho voting in a man from another region of Somalia. Same can be said for all other cities in Somalia and in the world.

 

PS: Of course, things could go the other direction, depending on campaign strategy, message delivery, experience and popularity. HOWEVER, remember we're talking about Somalia here. Voting blocs don't go according to policy but mainly according to clan affiliation. This has been the case since colonial-era Somalia. You think things have changed and Somalis have somehow been "enlightened"? If I assume "too much" as you've mentioned, then you're a champion of "wishful thinking." But, hey, some people still believe 2Pac is alive and others will swear they've been abducted by aliens. To each his own.

[Sky]

lets not forget that muqdisho is the capital of somalia and therefore must be free of qabiil ladies and fellas. muqdisho will be the only city that is going to be its own city state, like washington, abuuja and addis ababa. so therefore muqdishos administration has to be a reflection of the whole nation from reer waamo to reer woqooyi. if especially the muqdisho based warlords are so eager to see a powerful muqdisho again, than they will have to accept the collective ownership of the city muqdisho that it used to have.

 

muqdisho is more complicated than you might think of who owns it and who has the most right to call it home. because there are so many different groups that each claim to be closest to the city with all of them different set of arguments namsaying. banaadiri founded muqdisho, local usc own the territory of muqdisho according to soomaali xeer, keenadiid and boqor cusmaan era puntlanders captured by italian troops were the first ethnic somali settlers within the walls of the 'italian' muqdisho, iskuraran etc became old enclaves of puntlanders. and you can go on and on if you include ajuuraan, the old rulers of muqdisho and even the reer baydhabo have their share of the pie.

 

i believe in democracy but muqdisho shouldnt be subject of majority rule, it doesnt have to and it shouldnt be if you look at its status. muqdisho is not beledweyn, gaalkacyo ama burco. muqdisho should be under direct supervision of the federal government, so that would be the prime minister. thats how most autonomous cities are handled. dire dawa marka soomaalida, oroomada and haraari aysku dilaayeen, the federal government of ethiopia didnt give the city to any of them and made it an autonomous city like addis ababa. the same thing applies for muqdisho.i think dire dawa should be somali territory dont get me wrong.

[Rahima]

Qorshel,

 

Whilst I disagree with the notion of taking the sins of others, as is the Christian doctrine where supposedly nabi ciise died for the sins of mankind. To take this in view of politics, to blame the decisions of a leader on the populace becomes flawed when in fact the people were unaware of the actions of their leader (for we all know most leaders are elected based on who can tell more lies and do it more fashionably). For example, the American people chose Bush Jr. based on his so-called abilities, he has made many grave errors- which could be argued that at first it was not their blame for he must serve his term and there isn’t much they can do to stop him, until of course elections came around again. What happened? They elected him once again knowing of his actions and now clear plans, with this they became bundled into the crime of their president. They knowingly elected a leader who they knew is a mass-murderer. Sure he might serve their purposes on other accounts, be they education, health or economics, but nonetheless he remains the same mass-murderer, which automatically outweighs any of his positives (which he has). Their guilt by association would of have also occurred had they supported their president in his efforts to kill innocent people (during his first term), but as we know (or so according to the polls), this was not the case.

 

Likewise, as in the Somali case, we may not of have had a central government, but there were regional administrations, PL and SL. The south has never had a functioning regional government (post the civil war) and they have never elected for themselves a leader- simply because unlike PL and SL, the south has too many tribes to reconcile under similar regional administrations. Similarly, PL although they had a regional administration fell into the same category but they had not willingly chosen their leader at the time (CY) and hence could not be blamed for his or the administrations wrongs. If however, the current leader of PL was to hypothetically commit some sort of grave crime and they supported him, then yes they fall in the same basket. In relation to the people of Mogadishu, they have never chosen for any of these warlords to be their leaders and do not as a whole support their efforts (pockets may, but the city of millions as a whole certainly does not). The current dilemma for the good people of Mogadishu is how do you get rid of these warlords without erupting a civil war? When one takes actions, you must consider the consequences and weigh out the possibilities. One must consider whether or not it’s worth it or are there other methods to achieve the ultimate goal (complete eradication of the warlords). We know what happened in PL, where the civil war erupted between the good and the evil, many died and it is this, which has to be avoided. Once again, the same dillema lies in Mudug, do you go after the men who murdered and risk the eruption of even greater problems, or do you try and reconcile the warring groups?

 

Just to give you an example, whilst I was there I attended a boarding school (where children from all over the country attended- Burco and Boosaaso when I was there) begun by one man and his wife. We spent the day with this man and his family, and over our meal he informed us of his other side-efforts. One that amazed me more than anything was his effort to reform the mooryan. I, to be honest had absolutely no compassion for them, now at least my rhetoric has toned down some for I realize I cannot paint every one of them with the same stroke. Many are young men with no families who have resorted to this lifestyle for there is no way out (as one young man said to a man who tried to advice him, adeer I do it because of gaajo, give me food and a living and I will stop). Anyway, this man provides after-school education to these young men, he teaches them how to read, write and provides for them teachers who can provide training to various trades so that they can escape the evil cycle. People like him are making a difference and whilst they are not waging an open war with firearms on the warlords, they are slowly enticing their supporters. This is just one example, but there were so many other such quiet wars and inshallah they will be successful and soon these warlords will loose the little support base they currently have.

 

but still they have them as leaders, or are you in denial to this.

You can call them leaders if you wish, sure it can be so (Saddam was a leader, dictator but nonetheless a leader), but they are not accepted leaders for the general public, for small minorities yes, but not the majority. That is the point which I struggle to accept. How can you blame me for the actions of one who does not even have my support?

 

I don't know whether you are dismissing my earlier comment here, or are you now admitting that you have no idea of what happening not to forget you had the good news for us from our capital.

I had a very good time in the capital and it restored my hope in Somalia, it certainly is not like many portray it to be. Having said that, my observation was that the warlords do not have the power that many of us seem to think, secondly each man is working for his own and not for tribalistic ideals, but how does that all link to this so-called arrangement to form a regional administration? Simply because I have not heard of it does not contradict my experience. Furthermore, we are all going by our own beliefs, you judge by what you read and i judged by what i saw and experienced. Just two sets of beliefs.

 

As long as it takes I suppose

They say Rome was not built in a day. But how would you have it? How is it do you think that the good people of Mogadishu (which is the majority as with any other area of the country) deal with the warlords? Confrontation, civil war? Or rather be patient and educate the people so that no longer will they need to rely on them? How would you handle it? I mean if the matter is truly so easy (as i get the feeling you believe-although i could be wrong), how could it be solved without bloodshed?