Can a Mixed Islamist-Secularist Be Successful ?

[Jacaylbaro]

I'm just wondering about those who recently gathered in Asmara, Eritrea.

 

To libarate Somalia is a principle.

To fight against Ethiopia is a principle.

To Unite Somalia is a principle.

To create a government is a principle.

 

But there is only one question ?

 

 

HOW PEOPLE CAN BE REALLY SUCCESSFUL TO ACHIEVE THIS ?

 

 

Look at Asmara conference now, There are extreme Islamista like Sh. Aweys, there are Moderate (less extreme) Islamists like Sh. Sharif, there are extreme Secularists like H Aiydeed, there are less extreme secularists like Sharif (aka parliament speaker).

 

In general we can say they are mix of Islamists and Secularists. To libarate a country or people means you have a clear goals and a agreed ideology to start with.

 

It seems the war will start among this group even before they start fighting against xabashis and their alikes.

 

Al-Shabab boycotted the meeting long time ago so they are not part of it. Sh. Aways and H Aydeed have different ideologies that can never meet. Others have other solutions that might be either based on Islam or Secularism.

 

I don't think this new coallation will not be successful unless ay dhinac isu raacaan and bring something clear on the table.

 

 

ILAAHAY SIDII KHAYR LEH HA KA DHIGO

[Emperor]

dp

[Emperor]

^I agree this group will never get to anywhere unless they correct their foundations... it's prety tough thou... very unseemingly, Any sane person sees this like you do, I hope for the best.

 

Aamin Ilaahay Amuuraha hasahlo

[Fabregas]

Here is what the Alshabab have to say for themselves.According to them the secularists are disbelievers.

 

http://www.hiiraan.com/op2/2007/sept/boycotting_the_mixed_islamist_secularist_conference_asmara.aspx

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

every reason one can think of to dislike the government, they are also guilty of.

 

Habeshas there, habeshas here

warlords there, warlords here

seculerist there, seculerist here

jihadis there, not so much here

tfg members there, TFG here

forming outside the country, was formed out of the country

[NGONGE]

^^ Have you given up on the TFG, saaxib?

[Fabregas]

Originally posted by Naxar Nugaaleed:

every reason one can think of to dislike the government, they are also guilty of.

 

Habeshas there, habeshas here

warlords there, warlords here

seculerist there, seculerist here

jihadis there, not so much here

tfg members there, TFG here

forming outside the country, was formed out of the country

You forgot General Gabre and his Ethiopian Tanks!

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Secular?

 

Manoo fasiri kartaa micnaha 'secular' horta, markaas aan ka hadalkee who ostentatiously is and not.

 

Koley erey Soomaali u dhigma afkeena kuma jiree [which alone tells us that it is alien concept to us], still noo fasir the closest meaning you can get.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

Ngonge , no i have not because i have always been aware that for Somalia to get out of the mess that it has been in for the better part of two decades would require not moral absolutism but pragmatism and compromise. I was and still am not blind to the shortcomings of the Somali government yet i know that our options are between this government, the first government in my opinion that has a chance of restoring our country or choas and perpetual statelessness and all that come with it. am also not blind to the fact that most criticism against the government are not the true reasons as to why some have chosen to advocate for anarchy and was trying to show some here that the same criticism they have used against the government can be applied to groups they advocate for here.

 

So for you Geel Jire the difference which compels you to support some and bad mouth others is "You forgot General Gabre and his Ethiopian Tanks!"? Do you not think that if this option was really open to them, they would come to the same conclusion, as the al-shabab have illuded to in their fatwa against the Asmara group as to why they would not be part of the Asmara meeting. was not Aydiid the very man who was fired for saying that ethiopia and somalia wa leysku daraya?

 

Secular?

 

Manoo fasiri kartaa micnaha 'secular' horta, markaas aan ka hadalkee who ostentatiously is and not.

 

Koley erey Soomaali u dhigma afkeena kuma jiree [which alone tells us that it is alien concept to us], still noo fasir the closest meaning you can get.

MMA. the word may not exist in Somali as far as we know but what we do know is that the concept has existed in the politics of The Somali much further then we know it to be in "Western" society.

Somalis used to separate their men into "Wadaad ama waranle".

 

Oodweyne

and say to you that for one to give up something of political nature in which hitherto one hold it, requires certain kind of Conscious decision, from one in the first place.

I must agree for i know of no one that has ever come to a political decision or gave it up unconsciously.

Secondly, it also follows that conscious decision, in turn requires a certain sense of Rational Discourse whereby one can easily put through all of the available facts and countervailing facts; in which such a finely-balance systematic methodological approach, can in turn allow one to come to a Rational choice, which is equal to the enormity of the task that is to be decided.

Here i must disagree with you. no it does not follow that in order to make a conscious decision one must ingage in "rational discourse" or have a sense of it as you put it but only that you are mindful or aware of the decision you are making for unless i am mistaken that is exactly what it means to be "conscious": mindful or awareness. what ever the connection between conscious desicion making and rational discourse, i arrive at my desicion in no less a strict rational thinking process as the one you have described above, that is unless you have some insight that i am not conscious of about my Consciousness.

Thirdly furthermore, it also the case, that such a Rational discourse, would as of it's own demand, in my view, that of discriminating intellect in turn, which can tell the fundamental difference between each given consequences in which each choice or political road is likely to be pregnant with.

in other wards rational thinking requires that the thinker is reasonable or logical or as you have put it have "discriminating intellect". again I agree but who shall be the judge of our logic or reason? because you think your self both judge and jury, clearly not you for you have proven again and again, logic and reaosn aside, that you consider those who come to different conclusion then yours to be illogical or unreasonable or of having a host of unsavory traits or shortcomings.

All in all, in my view - and I could be wrong in here - these grasping-with-the-wind cheerleading supporters of this discredited TFG are yet to present an inconvertible evidence of those so bespoken line of detail thought process that I have listed in here, to us at the gallery of SOL.

Am glad that you acknowledge the fact that you could be wrong because in this instance you are wrong about those "grasping-with-the-wind cheerleading supporters" and are guilty of self induced blindness.

At least that is the case of the view that one will come to if one were to start judging their political reasoning - as piss-poor as it is - that is in here, against that exacting criteria...

i really wish you would apply that "exacting criteria" to what you write. as a self-confessed secesionist who has a benefit in seeing all attempts of restoring the state, your true intentions for trying to discredit this or any other Somali government is so evident that as much as you try, no amount empty rhetoric about conscious desicions, rationan discourse or exacting criteria can ever cover it up.

running out of time but will repond to the rest of your nonesense later.

[AYOUB]

^^ La jiifiya banaan, la toosiya banaan.

 

MMA

I've seen some describe Secular State as "Qaran-Cilmaaniya". It's a mix of Arabic and Soomaali. The same way one would describe Religion based State as Diiniya. I don't think we have these terms in af-soomaali. Maybe we should Somalise Cilmaaniya to Cilmaaneed the same way Diiniya became Diimeed/Diineed.

[Peacenow]

I'm glad people are having these kind of discussions, it is about time.

[Fabregas]

Wadaad and Waranle is not akin to secularism. It was the rule of spiritual religous slash clan leaders who swayed power by controlling large numbers of Waranles. If the Wadaad would call a Jihad or war against others the Waranles would obey him. This system was used very well by the Imam Ahmad Gurey when he embarked on his war with the Abysnians during the middle Ages. Each clan brought their thousands of Waranles to join the Jihad of Imam Ahmad Gurey. Thus I fail to see the comparisons between this system and the western secular system. Secondly, the notion that political Islam and Shariah was alien to Somalis is a myth created by Western colonialist and their allies. Somalis have always had a spirit of armed struggle or pshycial Jihad and normally settled their disputes using a combination of Somali and Islamic laws.

 

 

quote:So for you Geel Jire the difference which compels you to support some and bad mouth others is "You forgot General Gabre and his Ethiopian Tanks!"?

 

 

Yes it is as simple as that Ethiopian or more precisely Abysnia which has always been intent on occupying and controlling the territories of Eritrea, Somalia and other groups in the Horn of Africa. The same troops that already occupied the Somali region known as the ****** brought their tanks to the historic Somali Capital. I have never heard of Eritrea killing thousands of Somalis nor have I heard of her claiming Somali territories as part of theirs. We did not have the 1977 war with Eritrea. Infact Eritrea and Somalia have a common heritage of defending themselves against the expansionist Ethiopians. By of these states were claimed by historical Ethiopian leaders as belonging to greater Ethiopia. Thus history tells me which side to root for, not individuals or clan struggles.

 

 

quote:Haile Sellassie, the ageless personification of imperial

dignity, triumphantly returned to Ethiopia from exile. However,

events in the ****** took on another dimensions. Haile Sellassie

began a relentless campaign for the consolidation of personal

power and expansion of the Ethiopian State. He proclaimed, "I

have come to restore the independence of my country including

Eritrea and Southern Somalia whose people will henceforth dwell

under the shade of the Ethiopian flag."5 In a later memorandum

to the United Nations, his government proclaimed that prior to

the race of the European powers to divide up the Continent of

Africa, Ethiopia included an extensive coast line along the Red

Sea and Indian Ocean.6

[Baashi]

Inna Barro has asked an interesting question. The answer is resounding yes. For Islamists to get where they need to be, they will face countless roadblocks. Having allainces who they share with the common ground objectives namely Somalia that's peace with its neighbors, can fend for itself from outside interferences, and open to face its internal deamons is a win-win situation.

 

Now I don't know about you guys but I see clearly that Islam in Somalia succeeds only when three things happen: 1) Stable Somalia 2) Free Somalia where Islamists have no obstacles in their way to sell their noble message and have the chance to stand for an election. If the argument that Somalis are Muslims who see the sweetness of Islam has any legs they have nothing to fear.

 

To get there they need to come to terms with the reality on the ground. TFG is in Mogadishu and the whole world is behind them sort of. Their leaders are hunted like a treasure. Their friends are contained and isolated. Now they have proved that their cooperation is necessary for Bendir to stablize I think it is high opportune to seize the moment and strike a workable and paractical deal.

 

Secularists they made up with in Asmara are Muslims in their heart and can be persuaded to support the political platform they are suppodsely running on. Don't write them off.

 

Today the goal is just and negotiated settlement where ALL can particpate. Gimme that and I give you free Somalia.

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Baashi:

[QB] Inna Barro has asked an interesting question. The answer is resounding yes. For Islamists to get where they need to be, they will face countless roadblocks. Having allainces who they share with the common ground objectives namely Somalia that's peace with its neighbors, can fend for itself from outside interferences, and open to face its internal deamons is a win-win situation.

I dislike to use the term “islamists” and you and others should refrain from it, the Quran calls us Muslims and we should stick to that title. However just to make a quick comment, the answer to JB’s question is a resounding no, this is not about securing alliances, but power sharing/mixing what in theory would be the islamic shariah with secularism, and this can not be done and should be rejected. Its either Islam or jahilya u can not mix islam with jahiliya, even if u are weak la tahzan innalahi macna. With that said, I think we are getting way ahead of ourselves. There is somthin called world politics, everyone knows or at least should know how it works.....somalia will not be “free” as in the sense it will be governed by Islam or the will of its ppl, even during Saids time, ie communism/capitalism.....and due to the status quo of world politics Somalia’s affaris like all other nations, will be dictated by external powers/pressures and for long time to come.......what somalia needs most is stability and peace, education of its populace, urbanization ect...... In my opinion this is all a show, I mean these conferences marka lets not get ahead of ourselves....... change takes decades if not centuries, and real change, positive change happens with a social movement anchored collectively by the populace of the nation, this is not the case in our situation...... this topic or JBs inquires is at the stage of calculus, well we all know before one can master calculus or get to calculus level they first must have learned Geometry, algebra ect..... at the stage somalia or these so called leaders are on at this moment is 2+2, marka waxaba yaan la is waliin. Alle ba og.

 

Ramadan kareem.

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Somalis used to separate their men into "Wadaad ama waranle".

Haa, waa laguu kasay. Soomaalis did indeed differentiate -- and they still have this mental culture -- to distinguish the people, mainly men, to waranle and wadaad. They also had a third label, nabadood, a one who is neither a warrior ['waranle'] and pacifist ['wadaad']. Nabadoon was -- and is -- a man who reconciled the two.

 

However, the waranle warriors were not necessarily anti-religion [as the basic definition of secular is], nor were the then wadaads like anything resembling the current so-called 'shabaabs.'

 

Wadaadadda in those eras were basically pacifists and did not participate clan wars, hence the numerous Soomaali poems ridiculing their stance and being good for nothing, from every clan.

 

The waranles, besides being warriors, were also unlearned laymen, who sometimes rose to fight for Islaam. Sometimes the fight for Islaam and Soomaalinimo were interchangeable, since they fought against the 'alien' gaalo, the term which itself derives from the many wars against Oromos, who were called gaala and then being the only foreigner group Soomaalis had contacted in those days. Soomaalis fought Oromos in Jubbooyinka, in NFD, in Soomaali Galbeed and other places. The fighters were of course waranle warriors.

 

So, actually, waranle warriors of then -- and not wadaad, the pacifists -- today closely seems to have had 'shabaabs' war-like mentality.

---------

 

I've seen some describe Secular State as "Qaran-Cilmaaniya". It's a mix of Arabic and Soomaali. The same way one would describe Religion based State as Diiniya. I don't think we have these terms in af-soomaali. Maybe we should Somalise Cilmaaniya to Cilmaaneed the same way Diiniya became Diimeed/Diineed.

What I want to know then is who participated in Shirka Asmara can then be labelled a 'secular?'

 

Is it Sh. Shariif Sh. Axmed? Of course not.

 

Shariif Xasan Sh. Aaden? Me guesses not.

 

Jaamac Max'ed Qaalib? Oh, don't make me laugh.

 

The three xildhibaans Cumar Xaashi Aaden, Jaamac Cali Jaamac and Max'ed Cabdi Yuusuf?

 

Xuseen Max'ed Faarax Caydiid? This guy comes closest to it, but I am not sure he is for completely shareeca-free Soomaaliya. Most, if not all, Soomaalis believe in shareeca, but they only differ how and when to apply it. Some -- the dhalinyaradda 'shabaabs' and their ilk -- want a strict, Taliban-like version, whereas others, most prominent among them being C/qaasin Salaad Xasan and the Islaax, would like to opt the Malaysian model. These are the two extremes.