Treachery Repeated

[Saxardiid]

And they killed Ibn Hubayrah, the ameer of 'Iraaq and they also killed Marwaan, the khaleefah - and it was reported that the murderers killed around eighty people from the Banoo 'Umayyah in a single day - and then they placed their blankets above the corpses, sat upon them and then called for food and drink.

I can't figure out obeying these savages make me a good Muslim. What happened in those days was just tribal wars and nothing to do with Islam. I don't know the difference between Sadam and those you called khalifas? They both tyrannical and blood thrusts dictators who made our din mockery.

 

 

About the khilafa, When HT massage couldn't get through to Muslim Ummah they trying now to force them to accept it. Muslims are working very hard to get rid of their tyrannical leaders and establish a system that allows them to choose who they want to lead or what system of government they want to use. Call democracy if you like but they are not interested changing one tyrant to another whatever label they carry be khalifa or Iyatulahi or Amir.

[NGONGE]

^^^ This was my argument too, saaxib. But HT don’t seem to place enough importance on the righteousness of the Khalifa to lead the Ummah. Their “holy grail†seems to be the idea of Khilafa itself.

 

They blame Mustafa Kamal for ending the Khilafa when, really, there was no Khilafa to speak of back then. It was only Khilafa by name.

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Yusufaddie:

Salaam Khayr

 

Imam Hussein's struggle was because he had claim to the khilafah and he went on Journey to baghdad to position himself for that claim. you all really need to go further indept to the history of islam to fully understand. The ikhwaan fought as Allah says in the quran as peacemakers but all they do is create mischief. The ikhwaan fought for nationalism which NAbi said was rotten. They fought saying that they were cleansing islam from the bida'ah and to acheive this they sided with the kuffar against muslims. I believe personally all this happened because muslims at that time started to disembark from the system that nabi fought for and started to accept kuffar beliefs.

Salaamz, good observation about the ikhwaan and I am in agreement with you on that.

 

You know this 'Khalifah' business is very 'MESSIAH LIKE' and DREAMY.

HT or whatever group that just TALKS and DEMOLTIONS IDEAS/SPIRITS and doesn't BUILD anything SUBSTANTIAL, are plain and simple

A JOKKKKKKKKKKKE!!!

 

Who you kidding?

 

When you have your kids going to the public school, money going to the nonmuslims, hajj the last thing on your family's mind (yet summer vacations are ok!), your wife wears a hijab but your daughters don't, etc. don't be yelling out for 'KHALIFAH'. You're not providing an

A RELIABLE, CONCRETE ALTERNATIVE

TO THE MUSLIMS. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM:mad:

 

It takes a long time to build a HOUSE by HAND but

less than an hr. to DESTROY IT.

 

You know when we say UMMAH, we often take OURSELVES out of the PICTURE especially when it comes to taking responsibilites for our actions.

 

Anyhow, thats my 4 shillings!

 

Fi Amanillah

[Yusufaddie]

salaam khayr i agree with you that the HT offers baseless alternative only if you believe that they are an organization who is pushing for the establishment of the khilafah, which is not exactly true. the HT is an organization that is dedicated in the EDUCATION of muslims baout the khilafah. When it comes to the actual establishment there are no organizations out there at present that is why i have tried to start such an organization where we have already put together step by step process of establishing an islamic state ruled by the khilafah system. All we need now is cash which is estimated at 55 Million USD which is easy to get if lets say over the next year if 110,000 muslims donate 500.00 each over the year the funds can be allocated. So you see it is not a Messiah like dream it is just that you are not up to date with the developments.

[Salafi_Online]

Salafi,

Saying that we shouldn't depose immoral leaders is absurd. What is wrong with deposing a cruel, immoral secular govt and replacing him with an Islamic one?

How excellent are the words of Al-Hasan Al-Basri®, who said,â€Verly Hajaj is a punishment of Allah, so do not repel the punishment of Allah with your hands, but repel it with Humulity and Submissionâ€

[Salafi_Online]

that is why i have tried to start such an organization where we have already put together step by step process of establishing an islamic state ruled by the khilafah system.

Brother Yusef

how is it that you call it a khalifah system, you should say a ruler who rules by the laws of islam, where only those who live under his authority are subjected to his rule, whereas those outside his realm ar not. A Men who rules all the muslim populace can be then defined as a Khalifah and such honour belongs only to the Quraysh! as seen below!

 

Khilaafah will remain within Quraish until ‘Eesaa ibn Maryam (alaihis salaam) descends(Sharh As-SUnnah)

 

Mu’aawiyah reports that Allah’s Messenger said, “This affair (Khilaafah) will remain with the Quraish. None will rebel against them except that Allah will throw him down upon his face, as long as they establish the religion.†Reported by al-Bukhaaree (Eng. trans. 9/190/253).

 

WalilHamd!

[Truth Seeker]

I apologise for the delay in responding, my time at the moment is very restricted so have not had the opportunity I would have liked to respond however as a number of questions have been raised by a number of people I will inshallah attempt to address them – I try to keep my posts as short as possible – however if a specific point needs clarifying you can ask but can you make it specific as possible so it saves me from ranting on and missing the question.

 

What is classed as Khilafah

 

A condition for a state being classed as Khilafah is that it rules by the Quran and Sunnah in every aspect, this means that the Penal, Social, Foreign, Education, Economic, Creedal, aspects are from Islam. So as an example Iraqs new constitution states that Islam is one of its sources of law so straight away it is clear that it also takes rules from other than Islam so cannot be. Pakistan states in its constitution that Quran and Sunnah are the law, yet we see the penal system neglected, the secular creed adopted (see Qadi Azams inaugral speech). This you can see throughout the Muslim world and no one claims to be khaleef anyway.

 

So how will you recognise the new Khaleef, the Khaleef announce himself as such and will publish immediately the laws of Islam (mere announcement is not enough, needs to show what is going to be implemented) and in the case of Hizb ut Tahrir they have a constituion ready to be adopted (see the book Nidham al Islam for the 180 point contitution, available at www.1924.org). As well as the social, penal, economic, etc… (some of these are available in english others are in arabic only and available at www.Hizb-ut-Tahrir.org) So immedialty the laws of Islam will be implemented, however naturally the actual application of these laws will take time as the administration is bought into place – but Islam will be implemented. So with Saudi an example would be that they are working towards a democratic system, which is haram and is definitely not from Islam.

 

No Muslim country has this and nor does it claim to do so.

 

Who can be Khaleef

 

Anyone can be khaleef as long as they meet these conditions (there are other recommended conditions):

 

1.Muslim, 2.Male, 3.Mature, 4.Sane, 5.Free, i.e. not a slave 6.Adl, 7.Capable.

 

Structure of the State

 

The details of the structure of the state are to show how the structure would deal with 1.6 billion muslims and beyond:

 

a) A Khalifah or imam for all Muslims to establish the laws of Islam.

 

b) A delegated assistant (muawin tafweed) selected by the Khalifah to be responsible for ruling and carrying out the affairs of the state.

 

c) An executive assistant (muawin tanfeeth) to carry out the decisions made by the Khalifah for the internal and external affairs of the state. He also reports back to the Khalifah and feed back from these areas.

 

d) Amir al Jihad to be responsible for the external affairs, the military, the national security, and the industry and The military forces i.e. the army.

 

e) The justice department (al quadaa) to supervise the litigations on commercial (dealt by Qadi muhtaseb), civil and personal matters, (dealt by the Qadi Aam) as well as looking at the disputes regarding the people and the State Appartatus (dealt by the Makatamat al Mazalim).

 

f) The wulats or Amils, who are governors of the various parts of the Islamic state. Hence you could give each country its own governor as was the case in the time of the prophet (saw).

 

g) The administrative body to carry out, and manage the affairs of the ummah and the needs of the people. Based on 3 aspects, it’s simplicity, it’s effieciency, and those working having capability.

 

h) The consultative assembly Majlis al-Ummah to give opinions on various matters, to account for the performance of the state, to nominate the individuals for the position of the Khalifah and to discuss various laws.

 

Baashi

 

What question was not answered on the websites, method? Theres a whole book on it, Economics, theres a whole book on it etc… – you need to say what it did not answer.

 

As to your method, technological advancement only comes when a state adopts a creed and moves forward on that because they have a basis for existence. The West adopted their creed secularism from the struggle with the church and then using this basis advanced, the principle they used was benefit and acted accordingly. However because it was an incorrect creed they have many problems in their society. Therefore your solution is again a symptom of the absence of khilafah.

 

The Khilafah would progress technologically because its duty is to protect and promote and would need technology to achieve this. The current rulers in the Muslim world havent a clue – why do they need to strive to develop its not as though they wish for the citizens what they wish for themselves? Even if they wanted the west has placed many obstacles in the way to prevent this e.g. World Trade Organisation, IMF and world bank etc….

 

Salafi_online

 

This last point would normally done by the Party seeking to access the Military in order to take authority after establishing the public opinion for the implementation for Islam through the political struggle so that the nation sees this has her political aim and the means of her salvation. After which the military would be capable of establishing the authority of Islam. Hence a coup de tat would be the manifestation of the political change that the Islamic Political Party had inspired in the people and the practical support in order to actually carry Islam through Dawa and Jihad to the rest of the World.

 

I would like to know your process of getting this Khilafah?

 

All

 

It seems that this discussion is going all over the place and none have really read the literature of Hizb ut Tahrir to make a detailed critique of it. The party goes through the clear practical aspects of the state in terms of Method, Economics, Social, Ruling etc… these are all widely available from the websites I have mentioned.

 

What we have to establish is a basis, Islam is a complete way of life so therefore it must have a ruling system and because this ruling system would apply Islam it is an obligation to have. Having established this we do not refer to our minds as to how we will achieve this but Islam once again. So again we do not go ourselves to the text to derive a method because we are not qualified, a mujtahid goes to the text and derives the method through the process of Ijtihad.

 

So in the case of Hizb ut Tahrir, Sheikh Taqiuddin an Nabhani looked at the Islamic evidences and derived a detailed methodology that would enable the resumption of the Islamic Way of Life. To support this he looked at many issues to the extent that even the process of thinking was explained and how this added to the decline of the muslims and a correct manner of thinking would revive the Muslims once the state establish such thought. Then we found that successive leaders of the party went into further detail such as the Funds in The Khilafah State, How the Khilafah was Destroyed, Usul ul Fiqh etc…

 

An example being the brother who says technology is going to bring revival, did he refer to Islam for this solution or did he take it from his view of reality. Islam is has the Idea but it also has the method so lets refer to that. So all those that propose alternatives give me the ijtihad you follow, show me the books that have your method for establishing the Khilafah, lets see your consititution, lets see your economic policy etc….

 

What I am getting at is that fundamentally unless you the members of this forum do not look into this issue and the literature of the party with an open mind then it doesn’t matter how much I try to explain things. Read the literature, scrutinies it and then lets discuss issues that arise.

 

End of the day we are all striving for sincerity in following the truth and unless we look into the literature of the hizb and find out for ourselves then were not going get anywhere. The websites are available to all (although at the moment the 1924 site is undergoing a revamp, but www.khilafah.com still has many of the books.

 

One more point for every aspect the hizb discusses it has the relevant evidences to back it up as inshallah you will see from its many books.

[Salafi_Online]

Truth Seeker you said :

"(1) A Khalifah or imam for all Muslims to establish the laws of Islam.

(2) Anyone can be khaleef as long as they meet these conditions (there are other recommended conditions): "

 

Well brother,

Are these conditions viable whenThey negate the narrations.

 

Mu’aawiyah reports that Allah’s Messenger said, “This affair (Khilaafah) will remain with the Quraish. None will rebel against them except that Allah will throw him down upon his face, as long as they establish the religion.†Reported by al-Bukhaaree (Eng. trans. 9/190/253).

 

 

Hence a coup de tat would be the manifestation of the political change that the Islamic Political Party had inspired in the people!

these remark also contradicts the map laid down by the Messenger of Allah(saw),

 

 

The Prophet said: ‘‘The person must obey in whatever he loves, and in whatever he hates, in ease and in hardship, in willingness and un-willingness; except if he is commanded to disobey Allaah. So if he is commanded to disobey Allaah, then he should not listen, not should he obey.’’ Related by al-Bukhaaree (4/203)

 

The Prophet said, “Listen and obey, even if the ruler seizes you and beats your back.†Related by Muslim (6/19)

 

 

Brother Truth Seeker, our actions should solely be for the sake of Allah, Our lives, our death, every action we perform should only be to seek the face of Allah! Our deeds are only entertained when they are in harmony with the Kitab and the sunnah! the Noble Texts abjures your system of resuscitating the khalifah, so it only leads to more corruption on earth.

[Truth Seeker]

Salafi_online:

 

1) What Qarain (indication) in the text do you bring forward that being Quraish must (Fard) be a condition of a Khaleef?

 

2) Im sorry I may have not made myself clear, the Khaleef will have been given the bayah (of the people in authority) and then they will remove whoever is the established authority (coup). This is what happened at the time of the Prophet (saw) the ansaar gave the pledge and then prevented the King of Madinah being apointed and the Prophet (saw) entered Madinah to become its ruler.

 

Maybe i miss the obvious but how do the evidences you bring defy this method?

 

3) I would prefer if we would ask one question at a time, then we can discuss and then move on, other wise it gets complicated.

 

4) I have asked this question of you a number of times and have yet to have it addressed, how do you propose that you will establish the authority i.e. get the Khilafah (after you have perfected the people). Ive stated seeking the support of those of influence, what is yours?

[Salafi_Online]

(1) believe i gave u a hadith, scroll up, that the Khalifah must be Quraysh

 

(2) u use the seerah to justify ur actions, the king/ruler of madinah was kafir, thus a bla'ah can not be given to a kafir

 

(3) i told u this already, we purify the people and the khalifah will come automatically/why because thats part of the decree of Allah/ do u deny the Qadar of Allah? when the people change their heart Allah changes their conditions for them/ again brother Seeker, when the people purify their souls, Allah changes their conditions form them/ so if its a khalifah is what they seek, then Allah will establish it when the people are ready, i thought we cover this already!

[Truth Seeker]

(1) believe i gave u a hadith, scroll up, that the Khalifah must be Quraysh

 

What is the indication to make this an obligation, why cannot it not be a mandoub?

 

 

(2) u use the seerah to justify ur actions, the king/ruler of madinah was kafir, thus a bla'ah can not be given to a kafir

 

They will be stopping the implementation of Islam, the principles will extend out by greater reason to Muslims.

 

(3) i told u this already, we purify the people and the khalifah will come automatically/why because thats part of the decree of Allah/ do u deny the Qadar of Allah? when the people change their heart Allah changes their conditions for them/ again brother Seeker, when the people purify their souls, Allah changes their conditions form them/ so if its a khalifah is what they seek, then Allah will establish it when the people are ready, i thought we cover this already!

 

How do you get it automaitcally, did the prophet (saw) automatically get the state in madinah or as he (saw) did the neccessary actions to achieve this i.e. go to many tribes to get the authority. What are the neccessary steps that you are going to do. Dont tell me your going to sit at home and wait until the khilafah appears.

[Salafi_Online]

What is the indication to make this an obligation, why cannot it not be a mandoub?

Brother Truth Seeker by Allah it would have been better for you if you directed your energy on studying the Quran and sunnah and leaving these affairs your heart is attached to, in that case you would have known that the Khalifah MUST be a Quraysh, and Allah guides who he wills!

 

inshallah here are the adilla(proves)

 

 

The messenger of Allah said:

(1) “There will be twelve commanders all from the Quraysh"(Sahih al-Bukhari 9:329)

 

(2) The matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs" ... "All of them will be from Quraish

 

Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaarah, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1452, Tradition #5 Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1009, Tradition #4477.

 

(3) "The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraish." [5] Sahih Muslim p1010, Tradition 4483

[Mutakalim]

I wonder who those twelve "caliphs" or imams (there is more than one riwaayah that uses the word "imam" as opposed to "khaleef") are? Do they have names? Enlighten me.

[Truth Seeker]

Salafi_online:

 

In order for a matter to be a condition of contract, its daleel (evidence) should include a decisive demand that indicates of its obligation. So if the evidence does not include a decisive demand, then the condition is one of preference and not of contracting. No evidence including a decisive demand was reported other than these seven conditions, so they are alone the conditions of contract. Other conditions included in sound evidences are conditions of preference only.

 

It is not a contracting condition to the Khilafah that the Khaleefah must be of Quraish. As for what was reported from Mu‘awiya was he said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (saw) saying: “This matter is in Quraish. None will dispute with them while they establish the deen except that Allah will drag him on his face†(Al-Bukhari). It was also narrated from ibn ‘Umar that he said: The Prophet (saw) said: “This matter will remain in Quraish as long as there are even two of them existing.†These ahadith and others, which were soundly ascribed to the Prophet (saw) about making the Khilafah to Quraish, came in an informative form, and not a single one of them came in the command form. The informative form, although it indicates a request, is not considered a decisive request unless it was associated with a connotation which indicates the confirmation; and these informative forms were not associated with any connotation which indicates confirmation in any sound narration. So these ahadith indicate that this matter is a recommendation and not an obligation, thus it is a condition of preference not a contracting condition. As for his saying in the hadith “None will dispute with them except that Allah will drag him on his face†this is another meaning that prohibits their enmity and not a confirmation to his saying “this matter is in the Quraish.†The hadith states that the matter is in the Quraish, and that their enmity is prohibited.

 

Moreover, the word “Quraish†is a name and not an adjective, and in the terminology of usul (principles of fiqh) it is called a title (laqb). The meaning of the name i.e. the meaning of the title is not acted on at all, because the name i.e. the title carries no perception. Therefore the statement about Quraish does not mean that it cannot be in other than Quraish. So the saying of the Prophet (saw) “this matter is in Quraish†and “this matter will remain in Quraish†does not mean that it is illegal for the Khaleefah to be from other than Quraish. Nor that the leadership remains in Quraish means that it invalid for it to be in other than them. Rather it is in them and it is valid to be in other than them. Thus the statement about them does not prevent the Khilafah to be in other than them. Accordingly, this is a condition of preference and not a condition of contract.

 

Additionally, the Messenger of Allah (saw) did appoint as leaders ‘Abdullah bin Ruwaha, Zaid bin Haritha, and Usama bin Zaid, and all of them were not from Quraish. Thus the Messenger gave leadership to people other than Quraish. The word “this matter†means the authority i.e. the ruling and it is not restricted to the Khilafah alone. We can conclude therefore that since the Messenger (saw) appointed other than Quraish in the ruling then this is an evidence that ruling is not restricted to them and not prevented from people other than them. So these ahadith stated some of the people who are eligible for the Khilafah to indicate their preference, not to restrict the Khilafah to them and to prevent its contracting to people other than them. Also, Al-Bukhari narrated that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: “Listen and obey even if an Ethiopian slave whose head is like a raisn was appointed over you.†Muslim also narrated from Abu Dharr who said: “My beloved (SAW) advised me to hear and obey even if he were a slave whose limbs are mutilatedâ€. Another narration says: “Even if a mutilated black slave led you by the Book of Allah was appointed over you, listen to him and obey.†These ahadith are explicit texts in allowing a black slave to take charge of leadership of the Muslims. This indicates explicitly that the Khilafah or leadership (wilayah al-amr) is permitted to be held by people who are not from Quraysh, rather not even Arabs. So the ahadith have stated upon the preference of some of those who are of the people of the Khilafah, not the restriction of the Khilafah to them nor the invalidity of contracting it to other than them.

 

The topic I would like to discuss is how you intend to get the Khilafah, How do you get it automatically, did the prophet (saw) automatically get the state in madinah or as he (saw) did the neccessary actions to achieve this i.e. go to many tribes to get the authority. What are the neccessary steps that you are going to do. Dont tell me your going to sit at home and wait until the khilafah appears. Yes the victory is from Allah (swt) but you still have to work towards it, just as Allah (swt) provides the Rizk we also work for it. Can you please clarify, with the neccesarry evidences this point. I have shown that the Prophet (saw) went to all these tribes to seek the authority and that is the work Hizb ut Tahrir undertakes, please explain yours….

[Salafi_Online]

I think you missed my point....there is a difference between a khalifah and Ruler(wali Amr) As the Messenger of Allah(saw) said the prophethood woul remain with you as long as Allah wills, then Khalifah Rashidun, then Kingship and then Oppressive Kingship, Then Khalifah On the path of the Prophet....therefore Khalifah and a muslim ruler such as a king, sultan or whatever title they may Carry, hearing and obeying belongs to them! It strange how you try to explain away the hadith, like i have never seen it explained in such a way! MAy Allah help us.... from it will....to ....it does have to be!

 

anyways.... thats i have to say about this topic! You may continue with ur affairs, as you wish!

 

Mutakalim, if you think the 12 khulafa are the 12 imams the shia's believe in, then you must remember the shias dont consider ABu Bakr, Umar and Uthman part of the 12 imams, Yet they were Quraysh and all carried the khalifah title during their live time.