Treachery Repeated

[Yusufaddie]

Ngonge let me give you all a little education. IT only takes one person to become Khilafah and as long as he fulfills those requirements to be khalif he will be considered legitimate even if he took office by force. We have already archestrated a constitution for such an islamic state. The Policies for society, education, finance all the tenents of running a state is already there. All what is needed is a few dedicated muslims to accept a leader or a leader takes the poition by force,. Now you talk about education. Even if you go to Medina Munawarra you will not learn from the books of Sh. Mawardi or Tabihani, becuase if you learn about these islamic systems you will see such a grave contrast to the way muslims live now and would want to change it. Basically what i am saying is the possibility of the khilfah emerging is very much possible but what is needed is ordinary muslims coming together to accept it once the khilafah is made known. So let me ask you a personal question, wwould you give baya'ah if a khalifah emerges?

[NGONGE]

Yusufaddie,

 

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying there. What’s the point of having the Khilafa if it has no substance? I find your rhetoric very scary. You want to take Khilafa by force? Who are you to force people into following you? What makes you different to King Fahad and all the other tyrants? Oh wait; you’re wearing your magical “Khilafa†hat!

 

I’m shocked and totally astonished at your inability to see how convoluted and twisted your views are, saaxib. Khilafa is a great concept, a concept that every Muslim longs for. However, none of this is about the Khilafa itself, it’s about the benefits associated with having a ruling Khalifa. When we think about this concept, we start getting nostalgic and dream of having a Khalifa that will rule the Muslim world in the manner that Abu Baker Al Sadeeq and Omer Bin Al Khatab did. Nostalgia is great, don’t you think?

 

Now, lets disembark from our time machine and face reality. You say it only takes one person to become a Khalifa! Well of course. But, that person has to be “elected†into such a post. That person has to be someone of sound Islamic knowledge and understanding. That person has to be a tolerant, benevolent and wise individual. I have a feeling that you’ll agree with all of this (but I have some doubts). Anyway, lets assume that you agree with my characterisation of our future Khalifa, can you please tell me how are we going to get such a Khalifa if everyone agreed to follow your argument about the unimportance of Islamic “education� Or are you saying that you and those who support you know best and that the rest of the Muslims will just have to give you their full trust?

 

Do you see how contradictory you arguments are? Anger is good, pride is good, and hope is even better. But, if in your pride-driven anger you start misleading your fellow Muslims with some ill-thought ideas about Khilafa and tell them not to bother with educating themselves about their deen, your anger, pride and hope become of no benefit to anyone.

 

 

Again, as with others, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your above statements were written in haste and that you actually do have a better way of explaining your ideas.

[Truth Seeker]

I think we maybe missing a number of points here.

 

First of all to have a Khaleef is an obligation from Islam (that is the reason for working towards it) yes it has benefits but that is not why we work towards it. It is a hukm of Allah (swt) and we do not have a choice in it, just as prayer, zakat, obedience to parents etc...

 

The other side of it is the Khilafah will not be a utopian society - in theory it would be - but becuase it would be applied by man on man then there will be problems, hence we have the various checks and balances from Islam to counter these.

 

So as in the past we may have a good khaleef or bad ones but as long as they rule entirely by Islam and the authority is in the hands of the Muslims then it is Khilafah - applying these two conditions to the Muslim world it is clear that they are not khilafah and Fahd is not khaleef.

[NGONGE]

You need to explain the Khilafa to me one more time now. Since as you say it’s “FARD†I really need to know everything that needs to be known about it. When seeking the Khilafa, do I seek an individual that will lead me or do I seek the concept itself? How would I know that a Khalifa is the rightful person? Lets assume that King Fahad declared himself a Khalifa tomorrow, why should I not agree with him and give him a bay’ah? He already says that he “rules by Islamâ€. I see some the things done in Saudi Arabia and all those religious people, religious courts and Muftis and it makes me think that, YES, Saudi Arabia does rule by Islam. You need to educate me and “teach†me the right way to “view†Islam so that I can happily follow your message. If you do it by any other way, I’ll only assume that you’re another General Musharaf, Hosni Mubarak or Saddam Hussien!

[Salafi_Online]

Truth seeker, Yusef and Ngonge, if a ruler does not rule by the Laws of Allah he is not Khalif, if he rules by the laws of Allah he is considered a khalif, according to Truth seeker, so in relation to those who don’t rule by the laws of Allah as we observer today, should we comply to them laws or simply overthrow them? The theory of Khalifah is wonderful however the current rulers are not just going to step aside! How shall we dismiss of them? We need tangible solutions. When King Fahd expires, he’ll forward the throw to his Son, when the ruler in Egypt dies, he’ll pass the throw to someone who has the same train thought, so before we get a head of ourselves, a question needs to be addressed, what must we do with the Current Rulers! This is one of the essentials questions you and party needs to address truth seeker, if we agree upon this then we have an unassailable relationship in bringing about the Khalifah!

 

 

Hudhaifah (ra) reports that the Messenger of Allaah (saw) said " There will come leaders who will not follow my guidance and will not follow my sunnah. There will be amongst them men who will have the hearts of devil and bodies of humans. " He (Hudhaifah asked) "What shall I do, o Messenger of Allaah if I reach that?" He replied, " you should hear and obey the ruler even if he flogs your backs and takes your wealth, then still hear and obey ." Reported by Muslim (Eng. trans Vol 3/1029/34554)

 

According to the Messenger of Allah(saw) grassroots revolution is out of the Question!

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Salafi_Online:

Hudhaifah (ra) reports that the Messenger of Allaah (saw) said " There will come leaders who will not follow my guidance and will not follow my sunnah. There will be amongst them men who will have the hearts of devil and bodies of humans. " He (Hudhaifah asked) "What shall I do, o Messenger of Allaah if I reach that?" He replied, " you should hear and obey the ruler even if he flogs your backs and takes your wealth, then still hear and obey ." Reported by Muslim (Eng. trans Vol 3/1029/34554)

 

According to the Messenger of Allah(saw) grassroots revolution is out of the Question!

Salaamz,

correction walaal cause if that was the case then Corruption/Fasaad is allowable and Imam Hussein died for no reason is in fact going to hell cause he opposed a ruler that was doing what the above hadith did. (No I'm not shia, so don't negate this argument!)

 

You are selling to us the view of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah and one which the tyrannical leaders love b/c according to this we can have any leader (muslim/nonmuslim/mushrik/kafir) leading muslims

so long as he doesn't prevent them from performing their SALAT (basic min'm).

 

Anyhow, I'm just presenting another side of the coin and I'm not for 'Grassroots' if you don't have a Viable, Alternative that can WORK.

 

P.S. When you say Khalifah, you make it sound like only ONE PERSON can lead 1.5billion muslims.

Thats UNREALISTICCCCCC!

Start on a small scale and stop thinking

'MESSIAH LIKE' aka THE ONE KHALIF.

 

Fi Amanillah

[Baashi]

Well well! What we have here? Let’s see...

 

Truthseeker is insisting on that Khalifah is attainable goal and while the methods of achieving it are not quite clear, he thinks, its inauguration is long overdue. All the nomads agreed this premise but Ngonge seems to demand (at least that is how he comes off the screen) the “howâ€s and ways of getting there to be spelled out. He wants to hear from Truthseeker the practical solutions that he himself doesn’t have. So far Truthseeker has not delivered nor has he admitted his failures instead he referred the doubters to his party’s website. We all went there with no avail.

 

Viking thinks that perhaps overthrowing some of the Middle Eastern puppets is one baby step closer to that goal. Who is going to replace them and how are we going to ensure they are the right people for the job he didn’t say. Rahima doesn’t buy the Viking’s point and she laid the blame at our doorstep. She seems to say that there is something missing inside us that is delaying the wonders of the Khalifa.

 

Yusufaddie is lecturing Ngonge about the need of having one strong leader. He informed all of us that indeed the “constitution†is in place for such Khalifa and he seems to be saying that “few†Muslims are needed to accept the Khalifa. Salafi_Online dismisses the need of grass root “revolutionâ€. Salafi has some “daleel†at his disposal.

 

Opinions vary as they always do! What this ongoing discussion is testament to is the difficulty as well as the enormity of the challenges that those who wish to see the Khalifa in their lifetime have to face in order to realize their dreams. I for one think it is couple of generations away and all we can do is to lay the ground work for others after us to build on and go forward from there. We have few problems to attend to first and addressing these problems is part of the work needed to realize the “dreamâ€. I have posted an article while ago called “Hudeibiah Approach†The article addresses this dilemma head on and one of its recommendations is the need of technological and “know how†skills we Muslims need to acquire before going forward attending other important business.

 

Carry on. It is very interesting discussion.

[Salafi_Online]

Salaamz,

correction walaal cause if that was the case then Corruption/Fasaad is allowable and Imam Hussein died for no reason is in fact going to hell cause he opposed a ruler that was doing what the above hadith did. (No I'm not shia, so don't negate this argument!)

 

You are selling to us the view of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah and one which the tyrannical leaders love b/c according to this we can have any leader (muslim/nonmuslim/mushrik/kafir) leading muslims

so long as he doesn't prevent them from performing their SALAT (basic min'm).

Brother Khayr Please read the following carefully!

 

 

The Shaykh and Imaam, ’Abdul-Lateef Ibn ’Abdur-Rahmaan Ibn Hasan aalush-Shaykh - may Allaah have mercy upon them all - said,

 

in powerful words that uncover the confusing doubts in this topic and that refute the one who spreads them from amongst the ignoramuses: "… And those people - those who are under trial - do not know that with the exception of ’Umar Ibn ’Abdul-’Azeez and whoever Allaah willed from among the Banee Umayyah - great mishaps, insolence, taking up arms [against the people] and corruption occurred from most of those in charge [wullaat] of the people of Islaam from the time of Yazeed Ibn Mu’aawiyah [till the present]. But along with that, the manner and behaviour of the notable scholars and mighty leaders with the rulers is well-known and renowned - they do not raise a hand against giving obedience in that which Allaah and His Messenger have commanded from among the legislated actions and obligatory duties of Islaam.

 

And I will give you an example - that of al-Hajjaaj Ibn Yoosuf ath-Thaqafee, and his affair is well known in the ummah - that of oppression, repression, excessiveness in spilling the blood [of the Muslims], desecration of the Sanctities of Allaah, the killing of whomever he killed amongst the notables of the ummah such as Sa’eed bin Jubair, the besieging of Ibn az-Zubair even though he had sought refuge in the Haram, and making lawful the sacred and sanctified, the killing of Ibn az-Zubair - even though Ibn az-Zubair had given obedience to him and the people of Makkah, Madeenah, Yemen, and most of 'Iraaq had given the pledge of allegiance to him [ibn az-Zubair] and al-Hajjaaj was only a deputy of Marwaan, and then of his son 'Abdul-Maalik and none of the khulafaa’ (successors) had given Marwaan a pledge and none of the influential people, those with power had given the pledge of allegiance to him. And along with all of this none of the People of Knowledge hesitated in obeying him and complying with him in that in which obedience is permissible from amongst the pillars of Islaam and its obligations.

 

And Ibn ‘Umar and whoever met al-Hajjaaj were from amongst the Companions of Allaah’s Messenger , and they never contested with him and nor did they prevent obedience to him in that by which Islaam is established and by which eemaan (faith) is perfected. And it is likewise for those who were also in the era of al-Hajjaaj from among the taab’ieen such as Ibn al-Musayyib, al-Hasan al-Basree, Ibn Seereen, Ibraaheem at-Taymee and those like them from among the leaders of the ummah.

And the affair continued like this between the leading scholars of the ummah - they would enjoin obedience to Allaah and His Messenger and making jihaad in His path along with every leader [imaam] whether righteous or sinful, as is well known in the books of the fundamental principles and beliefs of the religion.

 

And similarly, Banoo al-‘Abbaas, they conquered the lands of the Muslims forcefully, with the sword - and not one of the People of Knowledge and Religion aided them in that - and they killed hordes of people and many of the creation from among the Banoo 'Umayyah, their leaders and their deputies. And they killed Ibn Hubayrah, the ameer of 'Iraaq and they also killed Marwaan, the khaleefah - and it was reported that the murderers killed around eighty people from the Banoo 'Umayyah in a single day - and then they placed their blankets above the corpses, sat upon them and then called for food and drink.

 

So along with all of that the conduct of the leading scholars - such as al-‘Awzaa’ee, Maalik, al-Layth ibn Sa’d, ‘Ataa Ibn Abee Rabaah - with those kings is not hidden from the one who has a share in knowledge and realization. And then next generation of the People of Knowledge such as Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Muhammad Ibn Ismaa’eel, Muhammad Ibn Idrees, Ahmad Ibn Nooh, Ishaaq Ibn Rahawayh and their brothers … their occurred in their time what occurred from the kings of the great innovations and the denial of the Sifaat (Attributes of Allaah) and they were called to [affirm] these things and were put to trial by them] and whoever was killed, was killed such as Ahmad Ibn Nasr. But along with all of this it is not known that a single one of them raised his hand against obedience [to those kings] and that he saw fit to attack them…"

 

Therefore, in light of the above it is necessary to give obedience to whomever is appointed over the Muslims!, whether this occurs by their agreement or otherwise, in all the various lands. However this obedience is conditional in that it should be upon the ma’roof, (good) since there is no obedience to the creation in disobedience to the creation. This is the companions of the earliest times!

 

 

Kheyr are we to contradict the Companions, and the righteous Scholars, like Imam Malik, and Imam Ahmed, could it be that we understand the religion better then them?

 

Truth Seek and Yusef i still like to hear your you methods in removing the current rulers!

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Salafi_Online:

Kheyr are we to contradict the Companions, and the righteous Scholars, like Imam Malik, and Imam Ahmed, could it be that we understand the religion better then them?

Salaamz,

There is Hikmah/Wisdom in what some of those Ulama say and you know I will agree too on a certain level.

However, those are not the only views and if we follow you logic then, when Kamal At-Turk came into power, then any muslim who opposed him

would have been committing a SIN.

 

Are al the Ikwaanis then committing a SIN?

 

Again, the ULAMA/Mujtahids do error and differ in opinion and the line of Ijtihad is deep (15 centurys deep and not limited to just 3 generations of muslims!)

 

Anyway, I can see some wisdom behind what some of the ulama you mentioned are saying but can you see the other side of the coin?

 

 

Fi Amanillah

[Viking]

Viking thinks that perhaps overthrowing some of the Middle Eastern puppets is one baby step closer to that goal. Who is going to replace them and how are we going to ensure they are the right people for the job he didn’t say.

Look at what hapenned in Iran (has nothing to with Shi'ism). Pahlavi Shah was as immoral as they come; he privatised Iranian oil, tried to westernise his people and plant secularism in their hearts etc. Alcohol, pork, prostitution and every sort of vice was practiced openly with the blessings of USA and GB. Then came a pious old man who brought about a bloodless revolution. The people of Iran refused to be led by Pahlavi, an immoral leader, they deposed his regime and replaced it with an Islamic govt. So, today there's the Governing Gouncil of pious men who make sure that the politicians who run the country do so in accordance with the law of Allah SWT. A theocracy was born!

 

 

What I would like to see in other Muslim countries is a revolution similar to the one in Iran. It would be going against their marionette leaders and their masters, but it would be in the interest of the people. The spirit of the iranian revolution was feared by Arabs and thewesterners so much that Saddam staretd the Iran-Iraq war. The Saudi govt was also afraid of the effects the revolution it had that they passed some new laws that would limit the influence it might have on its people.

 

 

Salafi,

Saying that we shouldn't depose immoral leaders is absurd. What is wrong with deposing a cruel, immoral secular govt and replacing him with an Islamic one?

[NGONGE]

Truthseeker is insisting on that Khalifah is attainable goal and while the methods of achieving it are not quite clear, he thinks, its inauguration is long overdue. All the nomads agreed this premise but Ngonge seems to demand (at least that is how he comes off the screen) the “howâ€s and ways of getting there to be spelled out. He wants to hear from Truthseeker the practical solutions that he himself doesn’t have. So far Truthseeker has not delivered nor has he admitted his failures instead he referred the doubters to his party’s website. We all went there with no avail.

Baashi, Truth Seeker’s rhetoric really got me into the idea of Khilafa. I checked his party’s website and many other Hezb Et Tahrir affiliates. In my research, I also came across many other sites that are set up purely to criticise and dismantle the Hezb’s claim for Khilafah. Neither side says how the Khilafah should be established nor what they expect the Islamic world to look like once a Khalifa is in place.

 

I don’t have my own solution to this problem. However, in some of the replies here and some of the websites I looked at to further understand the Hezb’s cause, the argument seemed to be that people have to change and get back in the correct path for Allah to change their circumstances. Now, to me, this does make more sense than all the rhetoric about the Khilafa and how by fighting for it and establishing it we’re going to change the world. They’re great but empty words. They don’t do anything for the dying Muslims all over the world.

 

Incidentally, since we’re talking about Iran and the Islamic revolution there, did you hear that the Hezb allegedly asked Khomeini to become the next Khalifa?

 

If this is true – there are websites that provide “proof†of this – can you imagine how the Muslim world would look like? Millions of Nurs and Mutakalim’s will forever be at each other’s throats. This is why I’m wary of the Hezb’s idea of starting from the top and working their way down.

[Truth Seeker]

A number of issues have been raised and i am very busy at the moment but inshallah i am working on a comprehensive response. Jazakahllah khair for your patience.

[Yusufaddie]

Salaam, Ngonge again it does not suprise me that you don not understand as the only salafs that i have met that understands me were the ones with knowledge and they are the ones that our debates always ends with agreeing even if it is to disagree. I have seen too many youths taken up with salafiism, go to madrasa and learn the basic usools and imediately claim understanding. I think you need to be educated on the topic of khilafah as i said before the salaf school does not have a comprehensive view of the khilafah in fact sh. Mawardi believes that the khilafah is a duty on eveyone. meaning that the individual each should live the lives of a khilafah in terms of the attributes of Allah. The saud regime has changed the aqaaid of the salaf to keep themself in position. When his eminence Sh. Abdul Wahaab tried and stopped them he was kicked out, he became a dissident osama, i believe he was the first dissident. please go to http://www-personal.umich.edu/~luqman/

 

And by the way there are only 4 arkaan for the khilafah and also force is a legitimate way of capturing the khilafah example Salahudeen Raheemullah.

[Yusufaddie]

Salaam Khayr

 

Imam Hussein's struggle was because he had claim to the khilafah and he went on Journey to baghdad to position himself for that claim. you all really need to go further indept to the history of islam to fully understand. The ikhwaan fought as Allah says in the quran as peacemakers but all they do is create mischief. The ikhwaan fought for nationalism which NAbi said was rotten. They fought saying that they were cleansing islam from the bida'ah and to acheive this they sided with the kuffar against muslims. I believe personally all this happened because muslims at that time started to disembark from the system that nabi fought for and started to accept kuffar beliefs.

[Yusufaddie]

Sorry for posting consecutively however Ngonge i must agree with you there in the point that the words of the hizb or somewhat vague in the actual establishment of the khilafah, however i look at them as a block in the wall. I also look at the brothers of Murabitun as another block and the reason is that many organizations have perfected various sciences in islam. I am working on meeting the elders of the Hizb to incourage them to move to the next step of implementation and i think Somalia is the best place for the emergence of the khilafah in this time. Just think of it... if Somalia is united under the khilafah system just imagine the ummah.