Self hating dabdhlf

[Che -Guevara]

^No, we have enough wars and enough dead maryooley!!

[Abtigiis]

Ibti

 

You are right. But you know if you also keep on telling someone who just apologised 'don't do it again, this is your third time,Ok for now' you are not doing justice to the forgiveness and pardon values!

 

Just trying to be argumentative, dear. I fully agree with you. Period.

 

But you should know sometimes I land myself in trouble on purpose. For the lure of being harrassed.

[Ibtisam]

^^^Quunyaar socodee qoodaxi maa muudo, you won't need to rely on values of forgiveness and pardon

 

Che, good man

[Abtigiis]

Now, I have nothing to say to that one. You are right.

 

But, on a different note, is it possible the real-life Ibti sometimes relaxes and indulges in 'senseless' humour, or is my caprice of an Iron lady with no-nonesense forehead validated? Just curious about your seriousness!

[Che -Guevara]

Ibti-Now we just need more disgruntled secessionists preferably from Hargaysa

 

P.S. Ibti, Let's not pull Red's I support Al-Shabaab but I'm pro seccesion next time marka.

[Ibtisam]

^^^I think Brother Red has a good heart, also I think he makes perfect sense, but ya'll fail to understand him. From what I understood of his stance:

1) He supports all Somali’s regardless of where they are

 

2) He supports the largely peaceful north ability to remain so, and does not support anyone trying to extend the conflict into those regions.

 

3) He supports Al-Shabaab effort in trying to liberate Somalia from Ethiopian and warlord influence.

 

At this point he arrives at a conflict, because al-Shabaab has members from south and north and inevitable will want an Islamic greater Somalia. Red have no problem with this, as long as it is practical, fair and does justice to all. However he is not willing to lay down the secessionist card for a non existent union of conflict, nor is he willing to take unfavourable terms. Negotiations can only take place when there is someone or something to negotiate with in the south. Red thinks Al shabaab can deliver this something that will sustain southern Somalia and facilitate any negotiations.

 

What you and Xiin keep forget is that the north is peaceful, therefore there is no need to entertain ideas of war between the north and Al-shabaab, because if al-shabaab take over and stabilise the south, there will be no need to go back to warfare, they will just come to the table. I understand the SL admin will not entertain this, but the Admin cannot defend what no one is SL regions wants. If there was a better alternative than SL (i.e. a better union with fairness and justice) I can see many people jumping ship. However people who support SL do not have to make that decision at this moment because there is no better alternative.

 

I don’t see what is so hard or conflicting about having this view. Also there are lots of “if’s”, If Al shabaab take over, if the north refuses to come peacefully, if they get fair and just terms for a union. These decisions he will make when the events arrive depending on the circumstances on the ground.

[Che -Guevara]

Ibti-I can't speak for Xiin, but I never supported extending the Somali conflict into north.If anything it's Hargeysa's admin drive into the east that's risking war and I have opposed that too,and those regions that oppose secession have the right to defend themselves. But I gotta admit Hargeysa has played its cards right and used the locals to farther secessionist agenda.

 

If Red is for sitting down with the south when it's stabilized, I'm actually for that.But he's gotta realise the Somali institutions broke down to primal level. Any reconcialation has to be comprehensive and between all Somali communities(Qabiils). I don't see Somaliland admin as entity that could speak on behalf of the northern citizens. Each region of Somalia including all Somaliland regions have to make their own case, address their interests, and air their greivances. I appluad Somaliland as entity that ensured peaceful coexistence of the northern Somali, but I very much oppose this political entity to speak on behalf of the north. I'm spefically talking about the Hargeysa admin. It shouldn't be matter of two countries talking, but it should be chance for all Somalis to sit and iron out diffirences and make every Somali citizen get their fair share in the context of one Somalia reconciling with itself.

 

As for him supporting Al-Shabaab, I welcome his support and I'm very appreciative of the fact that he realises Al-Shabaab is for one Somalia. If he's willing to support them with fact in mind, then great.

[Ibtisam]

^^^I agree with most of what you said but for this:

for all Somalis to sit and iron out differences and make every Somali citizen get their fair share in the context of one Somalia reconciling with itself.

Somalis in the North have longed ironed out this differences, hence their ability to live together in peace.

 

In all important matters Somaliland is represented by the oodyaal which cover all the clans and they will be coming as an entity, to iron out their collective grievances with the south. Somaliland as a region has already done a lot in settling disputes and old wrong doings, they don't need to go back to square one.

 

Lastly they will be present as a country and they will be weighing up their options. Ideal the south could iron out all its difference, grievances and problems first and foremost, then come with their compromise agreement. SL role is to listen and then collectively decide if greater union is indeed better for them than their current state. If they decide collectively that they wish to continue alone, then so be it, at least most things would’ve been ironed out. If this day arrives and the people of Somaliland rightly or wrongly decided that they will like to continue being Somaliland, and the strong newly formed south decides to fight them into submission, then we’ll be back in the 1980’s and it will be the start of another miserable bitter conflict. If however the south says well “p*iss off then, we are going to be bigger and better and then you are going to be sorry you did not join us” then who knows future generations may have better conditions on both sides.

 

All I know is you cannot beat someone into submission, and this goes for SL actions in LA.

[NGONGE]

^^ But LA was NOT beaten into submission, my dear. Don't get carried away with your niceness to Che by forfeiting that vital part of the argument.

[Ibtisam]

^^^Maybe not, [i was not there] but Che and few others on this forum think this, so I am just telling him that if it is the case, it won't work and time will tell.

 

P.s. Niceness?? :eek: lol I don't go out of my way to offend [most of the time] But you cannot accuse me of bending my views to suit others.

[Che -Guevara]

Ibti-What collective grievances do the communities in Awdal, Sool and Sanaag have against south. No member in these communities has ever pick arms against the former Somali government. They share the same grievances any other Somali has. They want good governance, better development,and justice for all. They were never collectively punished or particularly targeted. And they fully participated in all aspects of the Somali government. To put them in the same boat as communities from Hargeysa, Burco and Berbera who strongly feel the entire south and not just the government had in it for them would be mistake. These communities have diverse interests and unique grievances which can't be channelled and adequately addressed through the Somaliland admin. I say let every Somali tribe speak for themselves rather than sitting together on the false pretense.

 

This is civil war and not war between coutries.

[Ibtisam]

^^^Come on be practical will ya, do you know how many clans there are!

 

In any case what you pointed out is the common grounds not grievances, which I sure those from Burco, Hargisa and Berber will be concerned about too. And if the proposals or the conditions of the south are conducive to those concerns, I’m sure any sane person will stay in their cave, just like they are doing now and rightly so.

 

Secondly if people from SOol & Sanaag and Awaal have no grievances against the south, then what does it matter if they send one oodey with SL crew or come alone as a clan?? I can understand if they had different grievances.

 

In any case we are arguing about lots of “if’s” again and in the process going in circles, back to what we already agreed ya che.

[Castro]

^^^^ Somaliland is not a domestic issue to Northerners or even Somalis. You may comment on Iraq, Afghanistan and even Palau and not have to answer to anyone.

 

Just wanted to bring that to your attention. Furthermore, the Northwest (a.k.a. Somaliland) suffers from many of the same ills as the South. Clan divisions, external interferences, competition for resources, etc...

 

It may be an "oasis of stability" at the moment but the tensions and their potential for explosion always lies beneath the surface. I hope nothing of the sort ever materializes but don't delude yourself into thinking that Somaliland is immune to the insanity in the South. That is not only shortsighted but quite dangerous.

 

As for Riyaale, he's the sleeping pill for the people of Awdal and his effects are now beginning to wear off. So, as Xidiggo is trying to convey, what will the political elites of Hargeisa do now? Who will they appoint as the president to make other (more volatile) regions docile as Awdal has been.

 

My bet is it'll be an SSC guy. But what do I know? This is a domestic Somaliland issue. lol.

 

As for him supporting Al-Shabaab, I welcome his support and I'm very appreciative of the fact that he realises Al-Shabaab is for one Somalia. If he's willing to support them with fact in mind, then great.

I don't think he realized that last fact just yet.

[Paragon]

Just today, I've heard of someone who posits the hypothesis that if Somalia-South get's back on its feet, Somaliland may implode! This is because, he asserts, the glue that hold Somalilanders together today, is the fear their leaders instil in their hearts, which entails pointing the finger at the South's problem and saying 'look over there; if you don't behave and let non-Majority leaders at the helm, that's what's gonna happen!'

 

Does that hypothesis hold any water? :confused:

[xiinfaniin]

War dadkani may xishoodaan. Grievance bay ku leeyihiin. Who does not have grievances?

The land between Merca and Gedo lost close to a quarter million of its people due Aydid’s systematic siege in early days of the Somali civil war. Just last year and half, Ethiopian tanks with America’s logistical support transformed entire neighborhoods in Xamar into rubbles! Yet you don’t hear those communities use these legitimate injustices to tear their country apart. Secessionism is nothing but a political tool for some northern groupings elites to attain power in the future Somali arrangement. Pity those who with all their education buy into this crap and think it can be realized…