Self hating dabdhlf

[Paragon]

NGONGE, it's just a layer, a layer to be peeled off. Nothing to it .

[xiinfaniin]

^^Ii dhaafaa duq NGONGE aniga...siriq buu ku jiraaye..

 

NG ,

 

Ok. Let me admit that what elites of SL in the end want or think they can get with this scanty merchandise of theirs is a moot point. But I am bit surprised at your rate of speed in diving this myth of secession. You already called SL a country. A lot people who believe SL’s cause feel that way. But I tried to make a distinction between am emotional feeling and FACTS. So lets first agree what the facts on the ground are!

 

Fact1—SL is a political entity that ASPIRES to secede from the rest of Somalia

Fact2---Majority of SL masses as it stands today want to secede also (there are sizable clans that oppose it).

Fact3---No country in the world has so far recognized SL.

Fact4—Contrary to your assertion, SL is not treated as a sovereign state (name one country…and please don’t hazard to cite Ethiopia’s envoy in Hargeysa for Ethiopia’s relationship with SL in particular and with Somalia in general is known).

 

Political sentiments and emotions that are associated with secessionism are admittedly difficulty to overcome. But when you engage people make sure you understand what those things are. They are feelings. Red Sea, for instance, feels SL is similar to Jabbuuti. But facts point to a different thing. And you of all people should not labor making that difference adeer.

 

What about LA? If you doubt that SOOL and SANAAG folks oppose SL plans, and then tell me what you are smoking saaxiib! These things happened before. Yesterday when it happened it favored PL’s political fortunes. For the uninitiated, the H collection seemed unstoppable. But the dynamics in the south have changed, and the tables are turned now in favor of PL’s political opponents. Yet the changes that happened in LA are superficial in the big scheme of things, all they amount to is a slight shift of loyalty in some localities. I really don’t know the political pulse of Awdal folks, but the question of SOOL and SANAAG is far from settled saaxiib.

 

Tell me, good NG, what are the major differences between SL and PL. Don’t include what SL feels she is. Include only what SL is today, and what PL is today. Two regions of a failed state that survived the Somali civil, are they not? Two regions that get direct aid from UN agencies, are they not? Two regions that have more a less commercial ties with gulf countries, are they not?

 

Adeer the world hears a lot from Somalis. But they know what Somalis are; a needy people of a failed state. The world as we know it today has not yet bought the notion of breaking up Somalia. It’s not an option now. And if it ever materializes, I am not sure if it will benefit SL. Chew that one yaa NGONGE!

[LANDER]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

NG,

 

I am not sure if you confuse the reality of SL entity as a functioning region with that of a state or country! The fact of the matter is that Somaliland is NOT a country! Depicting it as a country does not make it so! The difference (forget about feelings and emotions) between SL & PL in the eyes of the observers of the region borders zero!

 

Human Trafficking, Piracy, extortion, racketeering, printing ridiculous amounts of fake currency that virtually made the shilling useless etc...So you mean to tell me 'regional observers' are not aware of these facts? perhaps making baseless statements has become the norm on SOL. How often have you seen reports of the above crimes in Somaliland? Personally, I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen a single report of Piracy or an organized Human trafficking business flourishing in any sea-town in Somaliland. Meanwhile, there are countless reports documented by somali and western journalists alike about these extremely lucrative crimes committed in Puntland. The typical reply you hear from people of said region is that the 'administration' doesn't condone these actions or do not have enough power to stop these actions. That is besides the point really, since we are highlighting the 'difference' that regional observers should be aware of between the two areas. The average person in Puntland probably doesn't see a penny of that money and it would be unfair if not inaccurate to characterize the people of Puntland as profiting from such activities. However, it would not be far fetched to assume (admittedly with no factual basis what so ever) that it is indeed Puntland that has a 'political elite' as you would like to call it. This group would be singularly profiting from the misery that is unfolding on the shores of Puntland and in the streets of Southern Somalia. I can assume that much and it would make a hell of a lot more sense than the fabrications that are often repeated in these forums.

[xiinfaniin]

Come again adeer.

[Jamster]

Somaliland = Contrarian; as in "it has every characteristics that an State does not have"; thusly it is indeed real and living in the midst of emotions of those who indeed are blided by its sheer prowess to beguile".

[Abtigiis]

I think how the international media characterises Somaliland is telling. Xukuumadda ISKU-magacaday Somaliland. That said, I reject Xinn's factsheet on the will of the majority of the Somaliland popluation. You cannot talk about of what they favour in the absence of choices. Kolka wax lakala doorto yimaado ayaa la garan karaa! Both camps (pro and against secession ay campaign gareeyaan).

 

Ngonge's political commentary is very basic and I wouldn't waste more time by refuting his elementary assertions.

[NGONGE]

You just want me to repeat myself over and over again, don’t you?

You just listed the similarities between SL and PL. The difference as you already KNOW is that one wants to secede and the other does not. On it’s own, that fact should really tell you all you need to know. But, no, you want it spelled out word for word!

 

Now I am not in the business of rehashing old arguments or plucking old news out of my sleeve. Yes, both states have relations with Ethiopia and yes they have commercial ties with the Gulf States. That is a given and, for the sake of argument, will be ignored for now. However, PL, owing to the fact it does not seek secession is not badgering the African Union, EU, UN or US. It does not have relations with all these entities where the explicit aim is to pressure (or lobby) them into recognising her. PL, is not received in Washington with full state honours neither does it receive US dignitaries visiting its shores. I could go on but I know how quick-witted you are and trust that you get my drift by now. Let us not have a showing off competition, saaxib. We both know where and how the two entities differ.

 

 

Now the issue of LA is a different kettle of fish altogether. Indeed the question of Sool and Sanag is far from settled but the SL virus has been introduced to the H body and it is starting to eat away at it. The triumph, dear Xiin (and please do not mistake this for bravado or posturing) is in the fact that this has taken place. When PL had control, it was not a big shock. After all, it is expected of kin and kith to stick together. However, for SL to convince some ‘localities’ to switch sides and drop their cousins it is a testament to the belief these people have in the viability of SL and the better chances it offers. Or, maybe as I suspect you think, they are just fond of shooting themselves in the foot? The point is, SL showed them a bit of flesh and turned their heads. Now PL has to offer them something more substantial than the H collective’s war cry to get them back. The way things look, it wont be just some ‘locality’ that will be batting for SL. Soon, it will be all localities. What will your argument be then?

 

 

(Got to go home). Might continue in a couple of hours......

[xiinfaniin]

A & T, Habruhu account more than 50 % of SL population. And I assume most of the that lot will go along with a separate state and the percieved power that comes with it...

 

NG, come on now! What full dignitary?

 

You are arguing for the sake of argument saaxiib. What SL wants or desires which is to secede does not change the reality on that ground that SL is a part of Somalia. In fact, it will not take much from PL part to draw SL into Somali civil war. Actually one can argue that SL is potentially knee deep in a tribal conflict. What is taming the conflict now is the other H collection is not ready to fight yet. For Allahs sake the casualties of LA turnover was ironically low (not that I wish a war but to point to fact for this skirmish what it really was). More people died in Kismayo than in LA. Think about it for a second saaxiib.

 

SL has no presence in any regional entity unless you blv what good JB posts around here. And when I talk about the deference between the two, I mean substantial difference in the big scheme of things. I expect you to talk it along those lines. It’s really lame to come back and say they are different because one wants to move away and other wants to stay in house. That’s a political emotion. Feelings. Sentiments. Realities on the ground override those feelings. It’s quite elementary that the constituencies of both entities are different in the clannish matrix. But that is just periphery to the larger argument here. The world sees one Somalia. Some regions are admittedly more stable than others. But by and large Somalia is failed state in the eyes of the world. The notion that SL is different than the rest of Somalia and has a reached a milestone in her march to independence is a myth for the all the reasons I cited above. The premise of her case is broken. It’s collection of clans and with varying interests, and you know it.

 

For SOL’s secessionist children; we are all happy that SL is stable and secure. Lest you mistaken our beef with secessionism with something else; something that’s more sinister.

[Abtigiis]

Some Habro (save for the elites) are not so keen on secession in the presence of a workable alternative. It is noit difficult qiiro Somalinimo if the right circumstances come. I was in Hargeisa during CARTA conference. You must have seen the debates that were raging in majlis's and Muqaaxiyo those days.

 

NG analyis is largely acdemic, adna dhulka waa hore ayaa kuugu danbaysay, and you judge thinks by what you hear from the misguided diaspora waving tribe flags.

[Ace of Spadez]

NGONGE, I think you're being too generous for assuming the likes of XiinFiniin can see the obviousness of the situation at hand. Maybe its because you are an arab, but for the rest of us Somalis, Nin ay meeli u caddahay meeli ka madow. You only come across as an insane person trying to fill up a vessel that has a hole at the bottom.

 

For starters XiinFiniin can't tell reality from his preceptions on how things ought to be. Case in point "What SL wants or desires which is to secede does not change the reality on that ground that SL is a part of Somalia." He fails to understand, the real reality on the ground is Somaliland a) is not a secessionist state, and b) it is in fact a defacto sovereign state. On the ground that's the reality. The fact that Republic of Somaliland is still part of the failed state of Somalia on paper as it were, since there is no dejure recognition does not negate the fact Somaliland behaves and functions as a sovereign state in its six regional capitals. That is the reality on the ground, the physical, tangible, substantive reality that XiinFiniin cannot grasp for whatever reason.

 

Second, only XiinFiniin and people who cannot see beyond what they want to see, cannot fathom the grand canyon size difference from Somaliland and the substates of Somalia Proper, be it Hiiraanland or Puntland. The very premise these political entities exist, are TEMPORARY. In their inherent design, they are to be "KU MEEL GAADH" ie, transitionary. If as we would all like, as Somalis and good neighbours, and Somalia Proper was to reconstitute its soveriegnty and wrestle it away from Ethiopia's clutches, all of these substates will dissapear. It is not because the people of these substates are incapable, its because of the nature of the states. They were to be a form of organization while the "Qaran" is put back together. Once the said "Qaran" is reconstituted, they have served their purpose and are no longer relavent. Somaliland's sovereignty on the other hand is permanent, whether dejure recognition is granted or not, but the premise is a permanent solution. That is why, we the citizens of Somaliland are more concerned with the SYSTEM, rather than the PERSON leading the massess. This is what NGONGE is talking about when he says, Somaliland albeit slowly, is going from strength to strenght, as it builds up its institutions and continues on its NATION BUILDING. There is no nation building going on in Somalia Proper, whether you call it puntland or gedoland or bayland. If you took the blinkers off XiinFiniin, maybe it is the idea that Somaliland is a VIABLE PERMANENT SOLUTION that is bringing in those in the eastern regions that like any calculated human being want a way out of this mess and this failed status, failed union, failed hopes and dreams. Just maybe, people are evolving to be less clanish in nature, and more about their interests, but I wont expect you to understand. You always see things from a tribal prism. Even the news of the defection of soldeirs who hail from Garowe, to Somaliland wont change your views. You only see things as they are, and there is no other alternative answer. Puntland crumbling under its own weight because its very nature was temporary and everything is about the immediate future, and who is going to lead, and who is going to profit while it still exists, doesn't even register with you.

 

NGONGE, be weary those that like to change the debate when the original debate has been quashed. The issue was about Awdal, and I'm sure you put that issue to rest. Now we have, another argument all together, and how Somaliland will not, shall not, ought not dare look after its interest...

[Castro]

Originally posted by Ace of Spadez:

He fails to understand, the real reality on the ground is Somaliland a) is not a secessionist state, and b) it is in fact a defacto sovereign state.

What is a "defacto sovereign state"? Is it like being de facto pregnant?

 

And how does a "real reality" compare to an unreal one?

[NGONGE]

Fahaye

What is that in everyday English? Oh, you have nothing to say? It's ok.

 

A&T, adeer wax la kaalay. All you have done so far is come up with rumours, old women's gossip and, shock horror, stuff you heard in a coffee shop in Hargeisa! Basic and elementary you say?

 

 

Xiin,

 

You keep on asking me to list differences but for the life of me; I have no idea why. Will they make a difference to our argument here? Fine.

 

Of course, the most observable difference is that PL is a one-clan entity whilst, obviously, SL is most definitely not (as this whole thread testifies).

 

Somaliland is the original breakaway entity (just so you're happy) whilst PL is a knee-jerk reaction to that.

 

Somaliland has a clear goal and aim whilst PL has no idea what it wants (allow me to speculate now; maybe it wants to position itself in the middle and demand recognition if SL gets one, or, hurry back to Somalia if that country sorts itself out, whichever comes first).

 

I will do more with this list but I would like first to know where is it all leading to?

 

On the point of how the world views the former republic of Somalia, I do agree with you, they regard it as a failed state. In this view however, they also look upon Somaliland as something different that presents them with a dilemma. Take the recent US statements for example. They did not say that they refuse to recognise Somaliland, they said that they don't want to get ahead of the AU in making that recognition. It was said in plain, straightforward and understandable ENGLISH. Dissect it, turn it over in your head, read it again and then read it some more, you will still end up with the same conclusion. The US (and others in their various statements) has NO objection to the recognition of Somaliland.

 

Now, before you close your eyes and try to break your own neck with all that shaking of the head, let me remind you that this is not an argument for recognition (we can have that one later if you like), this is one to show you the difference in the way SL is viewed. Come on, put your hand on your heart, try to regulate your breathing and then just spit out the words that have been stuck in your throat for months. Say it, saaxib, say: waa ruunta.

 

Ps

PL dragging SL into a war is beside the point and changes nothing about SL seceding or driving for recognition. Some might even argue this may benefit Somaliland.

 

Pps

I did not deal with some parts there because I think Spadez there did a sterling job already. He left Castro clutching at straws and playing the semantics game.

[Castro]

^^^^ I couldn't get past the first few sentences of the "sterling" job. You mistook my ridicule for playing semantics.

 

That you are exerting all this effort in this "coming out" thread of yours is telling saaxib. You're convincing yourself of Somaliland and dragging us all with you.

 

Be strong. Don't waver. Don't let me dig up a thread you wrote some time ago when you were squarely on the other side. You were either confused then (which is ok) or you are confused now (which is also ok).

 

P.S. There are no goal posts in this "debate".

[Castro]

deploying all manner of insinuation and diatribe to any debate that he finds himself in neck deep.

Mr. Oodweyne, which part tickled your fancy most? My favorite was the de facto pregnancy. It was an awesome analogy. Perfectly timed as well. lol

 

I wanted to get NGONGE to stay up late tonight but he wouldn't bite.

 

I'll heed your advice and take a break. This debate is getting on my last nerve. Also, I can't be chasing minyaros and fighting secessionists all at once. I've got to prioritize.

[ElPunto]

Balderdash and Bunkum!