The Dawkins Delusion: A response to Richard Dawkins

[N.O.R.F]

Warning. Reason. Logic and Intellect used (athiest buzz words).

 

Draft 0.2 By Hamza Tzortzis

 

When I picked up “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins, I was expecting to encounter new reasons put forward to form a positive case for the Atheist worldview, but I have to say that I was disappointed. What I read were rehashed, incoherent arguments that made me realize that Richard Dawkins is not very well read in philosophy. In light of this I thought it would be useful to respond to his main arguments in the following way:

 

1. Respond to what Dawkins considers his central argument;

2. Respond to what Philosophers consider his best argument.

 

Responding to what Dawkins considers his central argument

 

On pages 157-158 of “The God Delusion,” Dawkins summarises what he calls “the central argument of my book”:

 

1. One of the greatest challenges to the human intellect has been to explain how the complex, improbable appearance of design in the universe arises.

2. The natural temptation is to attribute the appearance of design to actual design itself.

3. The temptation is a false one because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer.

4. The most ingenious and powerful explanation is Darwinism evolution by natural selection and we don’t have an equivalent explanation for physics.

5. We should not give up the hope of a better explanation arising in physics, something as powerful as Darwinism is for biology.

 

God almost certainly does not exist.

 

Preliminary Note

 

Before I go into Dawkins’ main points, I would like to address his conclusion “God almost certainly does not exist.” My main issue is – how does he conclude that God doesn’t exist from the above statements? It seems to me that his conclusion just jumps out of thin air, to infer that God does not exist just shows how invalid his argument is. It seems to me that the only delusion is Dawkins’ conviction that his argument is “a very serious argument against God’s existence.”

 

If we could conclude anything from Dawkins’ argument it would be that we should not infer that God exists based on the design of the universe. However, even if that is true, it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist; we can believe in God’s existence from other arguments, which include:

 

• The argument from morality;

• The miracle of the Qur’an;

• The cosmological argument;

• The argument from personal experience;

• The argument from consciousness.

 

If we were to accept all of Dawkins’ statements, it would not be enough to reject the idea that God exists, and it certainly does not provide a case for Atheism. However, many of his statements are false. Let us take his statements and respond accordingly.

 

Statement #1: One of the greatest challenges to the human intellect has been to explain how the complex, improbable appearance of design in the universe arises.

 

I believe that it is only a challenge if you wish to take God out of the picture. It is indeed a challenge if you presume atheism to be true. However for someone who is reflective and thinks deeply about things, I think the simplest and the best explanation - with the greatest explanatory power - is that there is a supernatural designer. The next point will address why God makes sense of the design in the universe.

 

Statement #2: The natural temptation is to attribute the appearance of design to actual design itself.

This is not only a natural temptation but a rational conclusion brought to light based upon the fine-tuning of the initial conditions of the universe. Let me start off by presenting the premises of this argument:

 

1. The fine-tuning of the universe to permit life is due to physical necessity, chance, or design.

2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.

3. Therefore, it is due to design.

 

Explaining Premise One

 

The existence of a life permitting universe is due to conditions that must have been fined-tuned to a degree that is literally incalculable. Take the following examples:

 

• The Strength of Gravity & the Atomic Weak Force: Physicist P. C. W. Davies has calculated that a change in the strength of gravity or of the atomic weak force by only one part in 10100 would have prevented a life permitting universe.

• Big Bang’s Low Entropy Condition: Roger Penrose of Oxford University has calculated that the odds of the Big Bang's low entropy condition existing by chance are on the order of one out of 1010 (123). Penrose comments, "I cannot even recall seeing anything else in physics whose accuracy is known to approach, even remotely, a figure like one part in 1010 (123)."

• Volume of the phase space of possible universes: Roger Penrose of Oxford University states “In order to produce a universe resembling the one in which we live, the Creator would have to aim for an absurdly tiny volume of the phase space of possible universes” Now, how tiny is this volume? According to Penrose the volume of the phase space would be 1/10 to the power of X which is 10123. This is smaller than the ratio of a Proton! This precision is much, much greater than the precision that would be required to hit an individual proton if the entire universe were a dartboard!There are only three possible explanations for the presence of the above fine tuning of the universe:

 

1. Physical necessity;

2. Chance;

3. Design.

 

Why it cannot be Physical Necessity

 

The first alternative seems extraordinarily implausible. There is just no physical reason why these constants and quantities should have the values they do. As P. C. W. Davies states:“Even if the laws of physics were unique, it doesn't follow that the physical universe itself is unique…the laws of physics must be augmented by cosmic initial conditions…there is nothing in present ideas about 'laws of initial conditions' remotely to suggest that their consistency with the laws of physics would imply uniqueness. Far from it…it seems, then, that the physical universe does not have to be the way it is: it could have been otherwise.”

 

Additionally if anyone was to take the view that the fine-tuning of the universe to permit life is due to physical necessity that would mean that it would be impossible to have a universe not fit for life! However as can be seen by the examples above, a slight change of any of the values or constants would mean the universe could not permit life.

 

Why it cannot be ChanceSome people who do not understand the impossibility of the universe coming into being by chance exclaim, "It could have happened by chance!" However would they say chance explains how an elephant was sleeping in their garage overnight? Or how a 747 ended up parked in their garden?

 

Even after their irrational perspective is highlighted, they still hold on to the theory that the universe can exist due to chance. In response to this I would argue that it is not just about chance but something the theorists call “specified probability.” Specified probability is a probability that also conforms to an independent pattern. To illustrate this, imagine you have a monkey in a room for twenty-four hours, typing a way on your laptop. In the morning you enter the room and you see, “O Romeo, O Romeo, where art thou O Romeo? Deny thy father and deny thy name…” The monkey has miraculously written out a Shakespearian sonnet! What you may have expected is random words such as “house,” “car,” and “apple.” However, in this case not only have you seen the improbability of typing intelligible English words – but they also conform to the independent pattern of English grammar! This is the same case with accepting that the fine-tuning of the universe to permit life was just by chance.

 

It must be Design

 

Since premises one and two are true, it follows that supernatural design is the most reasonable explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe to permit life.

 

Statement #3: The temptation is a false one because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer.

 

The above statement, which is a contention to the design argument is flawed for two main reasons. First, anyone with a basic understanding of the philosophy of science will conclude that in the inference to the best explanation, the best explanation does not require an explanation! The following example illustrates this point.Imagine 500 years from now, a group of archaeologists start digging in London’s Hyde Park only to find parts of a car and a bus. They would be completely justified in inferring that these finds were not the result of sedimentation and metamorphosis but products of an unknown civilization. However if some skeptics were to argue that we cannot make such inferences because we do not know anything about this civilization, how they lived and who created them, would that make the archaeologists conclusions untrue? Of course not!

 

Second, if we take this contention seriously it could undermine the very foundations of science and philosophy themselves. If we require an explanation for the basic assumptions of science, for example that the external world exists, where do you think our level of scientific progress would be?

 

Additionally if we were to apply this type of question to every attempt at explaining the explanation, we would end up with an infinite regression of explanations. And an infinite regression of explanations would defeat the whole purpose of science in the first place – which is to provide an explanation!

 

A Note on Rejecting the SupernaturalDawkins’ also rejects a supernatural designer because he thinks, as an explanation, it lack explanatory power; in other words, no advance is made. He raises this objection because he feels that a supernatural designer is just as complex as design. However Dawkins’ objection is problematic as he assumes that a supernatural designer is as complex as the universe. But a supernatural designer, in other words God, is one of the simplest concepts understood by all. This opinion is expressed by many Philosophers including the famous atheist turned theist Professor Anthony Flew.

 

Dawkins’ other assumption is that God is made of many parts; however, God is immaterial, transcendent and one. Just because God can do complex things does not make him complex, it seems to me that Dawkins confuses ability with nature. In other words, just because God can do complex things (such as creating the universe) it does not make His nature complex.

 

So it stands to reason that God is the simplest, and therefore the best, explanation.

 

Statement #4: The most ingenious and powerful explanation is Darwinism evolution by natural selection and and we don’t have an equivalent explanation for physics.

 

This statement is irrelevant due to the following reasons:

 

1. Evolution does not have its foot in the door;

2. Evolution is based upon incalculable probabilities;

3. Evolution is impossible because we have not spent enough time on Earth yet.

 

Let me expand upon these points.

 

1. Evolution does not have its foot in the door

 

With regards to the existence of God, evolution does not even have its foot in the door; it’s about nine billion years away if we use the fine-tuning argument mentioned above. Simply put, evolution has no say.

 

2. Evolution is based upon incalculable probabilities

 

The odds against assembling the human genome spontaneously are incalculable. The probability of assembling the genome is between 4-180 to 4-110,000 and 4-360 to 4-110,000. These numbers give some feel for the unlikelihood of the species Homo sapiens. And if anyone were to accept evolution by chance, they would have to believe in a miracle as these numbers are so high! Therefore evolution itself would prove the existence of God!

 

3. Evolution is impossible because we have not had enough time on Earth yet

According to John D. Barrow and Frank J. Tipler, the calculated odds of assembling a single gene are between and 4-180 to 4-360. The implications of this are that there simply has not been sufficient time since the formation of the earth to try a number of nucleotide base combinations that can even remotely compare to these numbers!

 

Statement #5: We should not give up the hope of a better explanation arising in physics, something as powerful as Darwinism is for biology.

 

Dawkins basically says that since there is a naturalistic explanation for the apparent design in species and we do not have a similar explanation for physics, we should just wait. Does this not sound like blind faith to you? The statement presumes scientific naturalism to be the only way of establishing facts or sound conclusions. Why else would he want to wait for a naturalistic explanation?Dawkins’ presumption that scientific naturalism is the only way to establish facts is not true because scientific naturalism cannot prove:

 

1. Logical truths such as mathematics - in actuality, logical truths are required to prove scientific naturalism. To argue the other way round would be tantamount to arguing in a circle.

2. Aesthetic truths such as beauty.

3. Moral truths such as right and wrong.

 

Finally, scientific naturalism is self-defeating as the statement “scientific naturalism is the only method to use to establish facts” cannot be proven using scientific naturalism!

 

It can be seen from the above that Dawkins’ central argument fails and is an embarrassment to the scientific community, as atheist Philosopher Michael Ruse explains, “…unlike the new atheists, I take scholarship seriously. I have written that The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist and I meant it. Trying to understand how God could need no cause, Christians claim that God exists necessarily. I have taken the effort to try to understand what that means. Dawkins and company are ignorant of such claims and positively contemptuous of those who even try to understand them, let alone believe them. Thus, like a first-year undergraduate, he can happily go around asking loudly, "What caused God?" as though he had made some momentous philosophical discovery.”

 

Responding to what Philosophers consider his best argument

 

According to Philosopher and lecturer at Yale University, Gregory E. Granssle, Dawkins’ strongest argument can be found on page 55: “A universe with a creative superintendent would be a very different kind of universe from one without.”

 

Dawkins’ argument can be summarised in the following way:

 

1. A universe created by God would be different than the one created by nature;

2. The universe we live in fits better to a universe created by nature;

3. Therefore the universe we live in is most likely to have been created by nature.

 

I would argue that Dawkins’ argument couldn’t be any further away from the truth; this is because the universe that we live in actually makes more sense being created by God for the following reasons.

 

1. The universe is ordered and open to rational anaylsis

 

If God did not exist, the universe would not display the order it does, and it would not be finely-tuned to permit our existence. Professor Roger Penrose states, "There is a certain sense in which I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance...I don't think that's a very fruitful or helpful way of looking at the universe.”

 

Additionally, the very fact that we can observe and perform rational analysis on the patterns we perceive in the universe makes more sense if God did exist, because in a naturalistic universe things would be expected to be more chaotic. This does not mean a universe without a God could not be ordered; however it is more likely that God would create an ordered universe, and since the universe we live in is ordered it makes sense that God’s existence fits well with our universe

 

2. The universe contains conscious and aware beings

A universe that contains consciousness and awareness makes sense with the existence of God. A universe without a God would be very different to the one we are living in.

 

Explanation

 

Human beings experience things all the time. This article you are reading is an experience; even talking about your experience is an experience. However the ultimate reality that we know from any experience is the one who experiences it – in other words ourselves. When we realise that there is a first-person, an “I”, “me” or “mine,” we come to face a profound mystery. The Philosopher Roy Abraham Varghese puts it nicely when he wrote, “To reverse Descartes, ‘I am, therefore I think...’ Who is this ‘I’? ‘Where’ is it? How did it come to be? Your self is not just something physical.”

 

The self is not a physical thing; it is not contained in any cell or biological structure. The most unchallenged and intuitive reality is that we are all aware, but we cannot describe or explain what this awareness is. One thing that we can be sure of is that the self cannot be explained biologically or chemically. The main reason for this is that science does not discover the self; it is actually the other way round. For science to try and explain the truth of the self would be tantamount to arguing in a circle! Even scientists recognise this; the physicist Gerald Schroeder points out that there is no real difference between a heap of sand and the brain of an Einstein. The advocates of a physical explanation for the self end up in a muddle as they require answers to even bigger questions, such as “How can certain bits of matter suddenly create a new reality that has no resemblance to matter?”

 

So if the self cannot be explained physically then the next question must be asked: “How did it come to be?” The history of the universe indicates that consciousness spontaneously arose, and language emerged without any evolutionary forerunner. So where did it come from? Even the neo-atheists have failed to come to terms with the nature of the self and its source, because no physical explanation is coherent enough to be convincing. Even Richard Dawkins almost admits defeat concerning the self and consciousness; he states, “We don’t know. We don’t understand it.”

 

The best explanation for the nature and source of the self is that it came from a source that is thinking, aware and conscious. How else can the self, which is an entity with a capacity to reflect and experience, manifest itself? It cannot have come from unconscious matter incapable to experience and ponder. Simply put, matter cannot produce concepts and perceptions, therefore we can conclude that the self cannot have a material basis but must have come from a living source that transcends the material world; and this is best explained by God. No other answer provides an adequate explanation for this phenomenon.

 

3. The universe contains objective morality

We all believe that killing 6 million Jews during World War II was morally wrong, however not only do we believe it was morally wrong we believe it was objectively morally wrong. What I mean by objective is that if the Nazis had successfully taken over Europe and brainwashed us to believe that it was ok to commit genocide, it would still be objectively morally wrong regardless of human experience. However since our universe contains objective morality then it can only make sense with God’s existence, because God is required as rational basis for objective morality. Without God morality is subjective, because God is the only conceptual anchor that transcends human subjectivity. So the universe with objective morality makes no sense without God. In this light the Muslim or theist may argue:

 

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist;

2. The universe with objective moral values does exist;

3. Therefore, God exists.

 

Explaining the key premise

 

The question about objective good or bad, in other words objective morality, has been discussed by many theists and non-theists alike. Many have concluded that there is no objective morality without God. Humanist philosopher Paul Kurtz aptly puts it as,“The central question about moral and ethical principles concerns this ontological foundation. If they are neither derived from God nor anchored in some transcendent ground, are they purely ephemeral?”

 

Paul Kurtz is right; God is the only conceptual anchor that transcends human subjectivity, so without God there is no rational basis for objective morality. To explain this further let us discuss alternative conceptual foundations for morality.

 

In God’s absence, there are only two alternative conceptual foundations

1. Social pressure

2. Evolution

 

Both social pressures and evolution provide no objective basis for morality as they both claim that our morality is contingent on changes: biological and social. Therefore morality cannot be binding – true regardless of who believes in them. Therefore without God, there is no objective basis for morality. God as a concept is not subjective, therefore having God as the basis for morality makes them binding and objective, because God transcends human subjectivity. The following statement by Richard Taylor, an eminent ethicist, correctly concludes,

 

“Contemporary writers in ethics, who blithely discourse upon moral right and wrong and moral obligation without any reference to religion, are really just weaving intellectual webs from thin air; which amounts to saying that they discourse without meaning.”

 

Since the universe contains objective morality, and Gods existence is necessary as a conceptual foundation for objective morals, then the universe we live in makes sense with the existence of God.

A Quick Note on Religious “Evils”

 

Before I conclude I would like to highlight that a response to Dawkins’ other contentions with the concept of God and religious life. Dawkins seems to attribute all the negative and evil things to religion. However there is a strong argument that these things are not unique to religion itself, but the common conceptual dominator is humanity. This is summarised well by Keith Ward, the former Regius Professor of Divinity at the University of Oxford, he writes, ‘“It is very difficult to think of any organised human activity that could not be corrupted…The lesson is that anti-religious corruptions and religious corruptions are both possible. There is no magic system or belief, not even belief in liberal democracy, which can be guaranteed to prevent it.”

 

To illustrate this let me use the outdated cliché of “religions are the cause war and conflict” and show how war and conflict are not unique to religions. In the relatively short history of secularism the following massacres have committed in the name of non-religious ideologies such a communism and social-Darwinism:

 

• 70,000,000 under chairman Mao

• 20,000,000 under Stalin

• 2,000,000 no longer exist because of Pol Pot

• 700,000 innocent Iraqi’s in the current occupation

• 500,000 Iraqi children in the 10 year sanctions

 

So it can be clearly seen above that war and conflict are not religious monopolies, rather they are human phenomena and not unique to religion.

 

Conclusion

This article attempted to respond to Richard Dawkins’ best-seller “The God Delusion” by responding to his central argument and the argument that Philosophers consider to be his best. However, intellectual gymnastics - no matter how truthful - seldom convinces others, so I thought it would best to allow the expression of God – the Qur’an – to have the final say. In the wonderful eloquence and sublime style God says,

 

In the creation of the heavens and Earth, and the alternation of the night and day, and the ships which sail the seas to people's benefit, and the water which God sends down from the sky – by which He brings the Earth to life when it was dead and scatters about in it creatures of every kind – and the varying direction of the winds, and the clouds subservient between heaven and Earth, there are signs for people who use their intellect. Qur'an, 2:164

Hamza's Blog

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

Look Norfsky, someone who arrived at atheism mostly arrived at it through three paths:

 

1: Dogmatic contradiction: the holy scripture are full of contradictions (biblical time lines)or just contain appalling directives to our modern sensibilities (Stoning, decapitation, hand choppings...)

 

2:Basic scientific knowledge contradicts religious dogma, there's just no room for dinosaurs and common descent of primates in a world that was made in seven days and contains advanced species that are only four thousand years old.

 

3:a philosophical or logical conundrum: How can evil, both moral and natural coexist with an omniscient,omnibenevolent and omnipotent God?

 

Forget Richard and address these mr. norfsky

[N.O.R.F]

I would appreciate you first read the article and comment on it. The questions you're asking can be found in numerous other threads or you could start another one with all the questions you might have.

 

At the moment this is a thread intended for the gallery and members to see the shortfalls of Dawkins' argument and the credibility of there being A Creator.

[Ibtisam]

Dawkins book is really badly written and his argument is not well made (or made at all). I think the blind watchmaker was better written; at least he followed his argument/model. This one was just to make money when he saw he was short of change.

[Johnny B]

Hamza's blubber diden't succeed in wakening an intrest to comment on his blogg ,worse is , he recusts already debunked moral arguments, but his travesty is adequate for entertaining someone who is already swaying with un-questioned Faith.

 

What i however found amazing was Ibtisam's rather resentful judgement, namely, Dawkins hardly making an argument in the "God Delusion" .

 

Did she read the book , if so how did she conclude so?

 

If we for a moment disregard her wishful reasoning ( if any ), Dawkins in "The God Delusion" focused directly on wider range of arguments that are used for and against belief in the existence of God (or gods), and as of November 2007, the English version of The God Delusion had sold over 1.5 million copies.

 

"Warning. Reason. Logic and Intellect used (athiest buzz words). "

 

Amen

[N.O.R.F]

Another defeatist post Johnny. I expected nothing less . Maybe our more adept nomads might have a go.

[Johnny B]

^As if there is anything worth having a go at, except your "I wish Dawkins is wrong" MODE, that is, and we said already Amen to that.

[N.O.R.F]

As opposed to the 'oh, I can't counter that so I will brush it aside and still claim the higher ground'?

 

There is plenty for you to have a go at. You just can't and I'm not surprised

[Johnny B]

Ideally, It's sad that you've yet to theologically mature to the day when you can present your own conviction's rationale, as Hamza and his reprehensible arguments were debunked long before he penned them down.

"

• The argument from morality;" debunked

• The miracle of the Qur’an;" This requires one to be already a believer, hence doesen't qualify as an argument.

• The cosmological argument;" Debundked before i was born.

• The argument from personal experience;" This shows the calibre of Mr Hamza, the Human mind is capable of experiencing beyond reality.

• The argument from consciousness. Ehem ehem, ever heard of The Argument from Ignorance?

 

As you can see the gallary remains disappointed, lest you or Ibti add something that could gain approval for being theologically interesting.

[N.O.R.F]

Oh, 'rationale' I forgot about that one Johnny

 

You're using a blog that, in your opinion, debunks the argument for morality yet on the same blog someone with a differing view debunks that argument

 

We're not in the business of just posting anything Johnny. Anyone with an ounce of intellect can see Hamsa's argument clearly trumps the one you've just presented (unless you're prepared to walk us through it from your peculiar view point).

 

Have another go

[Johnny B]

We're not in the business of just posting anything Johnny.

We're yet to be convinced that you're doing otherwise.

 

Untill you collect some intellectual courage and dare pinpoint for the gallery where in Hamza's blubber it honestly cut for you, we're only left with Hamza's debunked,fallacious and non-sequiturs, that serve nobody but a fanatic who is already swaying with un-questioned Faith and is more than willing to host any conclusion that boosts his un-questioned Faith,regarless.

 

from a nuteral point of view, we can assure you that Richard Dawkins' "The God delusion" got better and more challenging reactions than this source of the wee caliber, some books have been written in an attempt to counter Richard's non-compromissing arguments in "the God delusion".

 

Tills then .

 

Amen.

[N.O.R.F]

So there we have it. Johnny’s response is “he is lying!” The usual response when he encounters an argument peppered with what an atheist considers the ‘holy grail’ ie reason, rationale, intellect (insert what I have missed Johnny).

 

As you were saxib.

[Ibtisam]

1) Johnny just because a book sold many copies or it caused a reaction; it does not necessarily make it a good book,

2) I have read it, from cover to cover and concluded that he makes no worthy argument as such. As I said I found that he at least followed through his argument in the blind watchmaker (even though even in that book, he kept repeating himself 500 times). In any case what is you point? I also read the Satanic Verses, which was also badly written, ridiculous attempt by a man. It also sold however many copies and he won an award for it. It still does not make it a good book. If selling so many copies makes something good, then I have a few examples you would not agree with; such as his book leading to a 120% increase in the sales of the Bible and religious related material in its first few weeks according to Amazon.

 

3) In case, he talks about God as representing or being a metaphor for nature or the world. This definition of God is not really compatible with Islam. I wonder why he did not take an overview whole approach instead of breaking it down.

 

4) Johnny IF you read the book, you would also realise that he DOES NOT claim to disprove God with absolute certainty as you are trying to push, he just thinks that there maybe simpler alternatives. Maybe you need to read the damn book- it is after all your bible.

 

5) He only deals with the issue of God in few chapters, half through the book he has already moved on to discussing how a world without God will still be this or that or moral.

A few chapters and he expects readers to conclude that he has dealt with the whole complex issue of an alternative to God. Really Johnny?? Who but an athesit would find this acceptable? :rolleyes: He aimed to show that atheism is the only tenable position, but it really was hit and miss and he forgot to aim well to start with!. His closing argument was based on the Burka as a metaphor for our lack of knowledge of the universe; an admission on its own don't you think?

 

He shot himself in the foot by addressing his opponents as religious apologist, feeble-minded or corrupt, which basically is id*iotic since he is supposedly the enlighten one and they are the deluded bunch. It also means that his book is aimed at those who have already decided that they don’t believe. A cult of atheist as it were, and therefore adds nothing of substance to the regular believer or undecided/ neutral individual.

 

Lastly there are many atheist who don’t necessarily follow science or any of his arguments, which shows that the replacement of religion does not need to be science.

 

So if he missed the non-science atheist, and the religious followers of all faith, what exactly is this book, aside from a littler celebration of atheist feel good book? His key message, atheist should be publicly proud; fine be proud, but please do tell us of what? :confused:

What is interesting is that he obsesses about who created “God”, but he fails to understand that for religious people this is where FAITH comes in.

 

I can pick this book apart if I wanted to chapter by chapter, but it would be pointless. In any case this guy seems to think that higher education= increase of atheism. Just in case he was correct I dropped out of uni :rolleyes:

 

Strangely enough I agree with some of his analysis of the Bible and its contradictory nature, I wonder why he did not select other religious text books from the world religions? He picked an easy target. I for one would have liked to see his attempt on the Quran.

 

So agree with me that this is nothing more than a handbook for atheist and adds nothing to anyone else understanding of the world will ya.

 

P.s. North you are going to give yourself a headache at this rate.

[Cara.]

Ibti you made some good points. LOL @ "Just in case he was correct I dropped out of uni"

 

Anything is better than being a smug know-it-all miyaa? I don't know why but I can't stand Dawkins. I also agree that he said all he needed to say in The Selfish Gene and The Blind Watchmaker, every thing since seems like preaching to the choir.

 

Strangely enough I agree with some of his analysis of the Bible and its contradictory nature, I wonder why he did not select other religious text books from the world religions? He picked an easy target. I for one would have liked to see his attempt on the Quran.

I suspect he did not want to live the rest of his life in a safe house.

[Johnny B]

Norf,

No, he is not laying, Mr hamza,Your source, just happens to be wrong in believing that one could start believing in a God or Gods from the arguments he listed, which some of them unluckily Dawkins hollows them out of any rationality substance, specially, "The argument from personal experience;" in the very book in question, namely, "The God delusion".

 

Next time , present as many articles as you wish , but atleast study the arguments ( hopefully read the book in question ) and wrap Norf's taste on it.

 

Ibti,

I must admit just like Cara, that you did raise some funny points indeed, not only did i brust into titter in this office of mine but i'd to close the door incase i interrupted others.

 

Firstly, you did the moon-walk on the point i was engaging you at, namely,

"Dawkins book is really badly written and his argument is not well made (or made at all).".

 

Despite my challenge on your resentful judgement regarding Dawkins hardly making an argument in "The God Delusion", i fell in love with your straw-man, where you did show no mecry beating the never-made statement of "The God delusion" sold many copies, therefore, is a good book.

 

 

And despite my unconvincedness of you having read the book,(some of your comments gave away ) i give you the benifit of the doubt,so absolute certainity is but a strange concept in our circles.

 

It's the Theists that dedicate a whole life on following a specefic doctorine because they claim to be absolutely certain that it is God's,'Allah's path.

 

I must admit that your claim of Dawkins choosing the weaker Faith in "The God Delusion" was what triggered my titter, as that highlights the unforgivable assumption of Xtian theology being weaker than Islamic Theology, an assumption you'd have difficulties shoring it up.

 

 

Yes, and to your disappointment, it's reasonably argueable that more education means more reasonable and tolerant lifeview , not necessarily Atheistic but with education people tend to both respect other human being's lifeviews and go to greater lengths with being reasonable in their beliefs,but for that you don't have to be a droop.