A Secular Somali State?

[burahadeer]

First,I was not defending the Shah.I agree

exactly the way you said.Anyone who reads the

article will see I was talking how various

movements fought againest the Shah,and how

Islamists stole from under the rug.Did I say

Shah was good.No I did not say.I see your

English is good & I don't know why you twist words.Ha you don't like the truth.

You can check the book I mentioned above &

Wekepedia & many other sources I'm sure you

will find it.

What it has to do with this article?Didn't

we talking about secular state.

Check back your posts.

We are talking about how sharia & non sharia

laws can or can not co-exist.

 

Don't put words I didn't say into my mouth.

I like clean & truthful discussion.

If we disagree.Fine.But don't misquote me,

and don't say "what it has to do with this ,

when you damn well know it is exactly what we

talking about."

And if you want to install an Islamic gov't,

tell the people what you want in advance;not

by deception.Saying what the people want and

then come up with a whole new agenda once you

come to power is a disservice to the masses &

sinister at worst.And tell these Wadaads

running with guns to lay down their arms &

save people from further agony.If you just

talk about two words every day-is that

applicable to Sharia or not?that is just a lot

talk.And if you go back home,and find out the

reality on the ground,I'm sure you will come

up with a whole new begining.The only areas

people are really suffering is betwee

Beletweyn & Kismayo.These are the areas the

fundamentalists are either controlling or

fighting.Between DusaMareeb & Zeila,people

are really living o.k.You wont see beggars,few

indeed.But there is a lot of displaced people from below Beletweyn,mostly women & children in

this area.Last year less than 20 people get

killed above Galkacyo to Zeila.Believe or not.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

notable secularist reformist of the Muslim world: Ataturk, Shah Riza, Muhammed Ali Baasha, Siad Barre and Saddam Hussein. If it wasn't for these leaders, we would be even further behind then we today. King Hassan of Morocco gets an honorable mention.

Emperor Mohammed Riza Pahlavi

 

Viceroy of Egypt, Muhammed Ali Pasha

 

KING HASSAN II

 

Ataturk

 

Said Barre

[Naden]

^ I can't believe you put that illiterate thug in the same category as Ataturk and Mohamed Ali Basha. What the heck did Siyad Barre know about the separation of state and religion? He didn't know the first thing about either. The only thing that cannibal did is decimate a society, directly and indirectly result in the death and displacement of millions, and propel a nation into lawlessness for 2 decades.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

Whoa, The man was no illiterate or a thug. I think we all remember how he had to convince Men and Women are equal from the moryoley. and btw, you know he didn't destroy anything, Clannish Somalis did that all by themselves, every standing rock in this god foreskin place is thanks to him. Stopped Qat, advanced woman's rights, was responsible for one of the best literacy campaigns, the man even fought desertification, built roads, hospitals, industry, the military...

[genius pauper.]

~~~when has it ever occured women being equal to men???? :mad:

 

such ideas ruin the essence of the two gender,

 

and do many know that, equality is not JUSTICE??

 

when someone talks of women rights, aint he/she being baised towards the other sex(men),,, i wonder then, where the equality comes in?

 

but to mention, aint it men who deprive women their 'rights' and yet fight for women 'rights'????

who is fooling who?

 

ps. women are different from men in anyway, and the two can never be equal, but if the equality means, equal opportunity, then theres no need for women rights.

[LayZie G.]

^men and women are not equal. Women are morally and religiously superior to men. (let us not get started on gender wars here but you get the point now, yah?)

 

Naden, how do you know Siyad Barre was illiterate or are you confusing him with general caydiid and the current warlords aka the so called 'islamists'?

 

Did you ever meet aabe Barre? Aaabe Barre read more than George W. Bush and the other stuff you are accusing him was not his doing alone, the Somalis themselves played a big role.

[Naden]

^ I see the rewriting of history is in full force and not a moment to spare. Listen, you and Naxar can share what you know about aabo Siyad with the few marines who have been stranded at sea since 1969. The rest of us actually have a living memory. Caydiid? Please! His big boy pants were courtesy of the Godfather of all things degenerate and murderous. Islamists? Ha!

 

Naxar, built roads? equality? education? You must be talking about a different country. I don't know how old you are but I suggest you wait until those of us and the ones before us have actually died before writing fiction. Or use it with people born after 1990, they would not be the wiser.

[Cara.]

^We can only think in superlatives.

 

Barre was the best leader we could ever have.

 

No he was evil incarnate.

 

The depredations of his regime don't necessarily need to be covered up when the past is always a golden age.

 

I do remember my older siblings had to participate in a literacy program to graduate high school (they spent a couple of months teaching reer baadiye). But how does that stack up against tyrannical rule?

[LayZie G.]

Naden, are you denying the efforts and improvements made on behalf of women under the Barre Regime? (fact, no one despised political dissenters more than Siyad Barre but why is that news, especially when we know that he was a notorious dictator who ruled with his iron fist?)

 

You talk as thought women in the Barre Regime were getting daily lashes for not wearing proper 'fanatic' attire, instead, they were locked in their homes, the rest of the umma were censored and punished for watching football matches inside their private homes and we did not have formal education institutions from primary to secondary education under the Barre regime?

 

Between you and I, it is you who is working hard to not recognize the successful institutions that were thriving under the Barre regime.

 

Some would argue and say that under the Barre regime, somali intellectuals, especially those in Academia (women included) faired better than russian intellectuals, free thinkers, romantics under Tsar Nicholas I of Russia.

 

Again, I urge you to point to me what part of the Barre records that we are attempting to 're-write' with new polished pages thats full of praises.

[Naden]

Cara, literacy efforts, meager and woefully inadequate as they were, happened not because of Barre but despite of him. I have anecdotes, too, from my grandmother about efforts in the 40s, 50s and 60s to urge women and rural people to learn reading and writing in Northern Somalia. So what? It is a matter of public knowledge that his efforts in the early 70s to convert school instruction into Somali essentially aborted small, localized efforts at 'good' public education in its infancy. The results? In 20 years of rule, only a fraction of those who could be educated in English and Italian university faculties were (forget about efforts anywhere beyond Muqdisho).

 

Layzie, I get your grievance about islamists and religious wear and all that. I get it. Successful institutions? The desolate condition of the country in 1990 is not a powerful testament to any success. Things that worked did so DESPITE of him and his thugs. Now some are giving an illiterate man who cannibalized his people credit for the work of Somali intellectuals? That's rich. There would have been so many more had he and his band didn't come into rule.

[Castro]

Originally posted by Naden:

^ I can't believe you put that illiterate thug in the same category as Ataturk and Mohamed Ali Basha. What the heck did Siyad Barre know about the separation of state and religion? He didn't know the first thing about either. The only thing that cannibal did is decimate a society, directly and indirectly result in the death and displacement of millions, and propel a nation into lawlessness for 2 decades.

He didn't really put Afweyne in the same category as Attaturk. If you look closely, you'll notice that he sheepishly added Afweyne's picture at the end probably due to some latent whispers of "Aabo Siyaad ha noolaado" ringing in his ears from childhood.

 

Though to give the devil his dues, Afweyne is better than all the single-cell creatures that came after him. (Which is not saying much seeing that the bar is set so low.)

[Che -Guevara]

The Somali state was bound to fail regardless of who was in power but I say Barre any than the present day creatures.

[Naden]

Castro and Che, no worries, today's single-cell creatures will be aabo-this and adeer-that in due time . Before we know it, they will be fondly remembered for wondrous achievements such as reducing the population in Mogadishu thereby reducing the nomad carbon foot print. With the beards and short trousers, they will be credited with the Islamic awakening of Somalis. Even the pirates will be taught to children as the Robin-hoods of geel-jires. All in due time.

[Che -Guevara]

^But isn't that the case with all human history. After all, Stalin defended mother Russia (I wonder how Georgians feel about him) at justifiable cost, the fathers of this beautiful nation I and Castro call home gave us the constitution. That Jefferson was screwing his slaves is purely coincidental, besides his black dissents should be so lucky they are related to such great man. Zenawi freed Ethios from the Derg to guide them to that beautiful utopia we all dream about.That might take few decades, so patience is the key here

[Naden]

^ It sure is. It is also both curious and intensely depressing to see the rewrites before the blood of the people had even gotten cold. The new monsters seem to have given the old monsters a pass.