A Secular Somali State?

[genius pauper.]

ailamos, its funny when you irritate your essence of logic.

i thought to misinteprate is not an adult way of escaping reality. the fact remains, your deeply personally held views, cant mean alot,

 

my point was, if at all you deem you are educated, let that be manifested in what you do, than come up complaining about what others feel right.

i thought previuosly you were preaching, lets tackle the poster's point and not attck him/her, least you forget.(it shows, preaching water and taking wine)

i aint any ambigiuos as you, but very clear,.

 

to be told the tittle of your thread and the package therin aint in compliance, is but that sugar coated, rational criticism, and if you feel offended, you should come scholary with a different equation.

 

mark you, reasonability is not a monopoly of secularity neither does constructiveness come with ill sighted uneducative utter as yours.

 

ps. if anyone appreciates the difference in opinions, ailamos you stand executed by time.

[ailamos]

genius pauper, I don't know what you have against me or this thread. If you think this thread lacks focus then give ways to put it into focus, suggest something constructively instead of inflaming the matter and calling it the usual "an attack on the underlying blocks of Islam". It is true, you haven't said much to move the conversation forward, so please, I invite you to do so.

 

I know for a fact you haven't read everything that was posted before (otherwise you won't be making baseless statements) and like I said earlier, I don't have the time or the energy to re-post everything I, Raamsade and the others have said, please just scroll up and read those posts.

 

I don't have hatred for Islam, no one on this thread has, please come out of your shell and join us in discussion.

 

ps. if anyone appreciates the difference in opinions, ailamos you stand executed by time.

I will not respond to your personal attacks and will merely ignore them if you continue with this tone. There are more intelligent people on this thread that I prefer to be interacting with

 

Ciao ciao!

[BUKURR]

Great discussion, too bad I cannot add to it.

[burahadeer]

Mr.Pauper,we can't debate under this cloudy atmosphere,where each step taken,some one yells,

he/she againest Islam.

Listen,bro.Siad Barre was a human being,a Somali

and more over a Muslim,if that is what you are

stressing,and you know where we are.Jihadists fare no better,actually worse.Amputations of limbs & death by stoning were in the script all

along.We were muslims for 1300 yrs,and we never

took such drastic measures,because people just

refused to accept & still is the case with the

exception of few regions run by the Jihadists by

force of arms( contrary to what Islamists project that theirs is a peaceful transformation).AS for

inheritance,why not let each family run as it

sees fit.

I guess you forcing facts to fit

impossible desires.

[genius pauper.]

Originally posted by genius pauper.:

 

for such a tittle;"a secular somali state"

the points you would discuss should have been, what really secular means, its origin, its merits and what factors in somalia makes it favourable for such system of governance, what secularity entails and its building blocks, compairing secularity with other system of governance,,,,,,,,,,,,,and many other scholarly forms of deductions,[QB]

 

 

i have no business in attacking someone i dont know. :mad:

all i call for is, sincerity in purpose should lead us and not mere personal feelings. theres nothing wrong with expressing ones feeling or what he/she thinks about something, but let clarity be the defining guide.

 

ps.islam is there to be, come what may. wata sema na wata choka, ,,

[genius pauper.]

Originally posted by burahadeer:

.AS for

inheritance,why not let each family run as it

sees fit.

I guess you forcing facts to fit

impossible desires.

 

i know a muslim and i know a non muslim. for a muslim, he/she follows what islam says. for a non-muslim he has no business in what muslims do, beacuse he/she is least bothered.

[burahadeer]

But,bro.check any somali website.almost anything

you talk about,some one brings in Islam(which is

o.k.),but they make it always absolute,with no

room to maneuver & thus kills any discussion

immediately.We need to be civil.

Give me a feed back,bro.

Let it go it is a good thread.

[burahadeer]

I'm non muslim? that is fine,Pauper.

If you come by the sword,you go by the sword.

If you come by camel milk,you go by camel milk.

 

Muslims have their choices like any other,

and there is nothing you can do about it.

SEE YOU IN HEAVEN.

[Mavericksky]

Bismillah,

 

So the title of the thread was 'Secular Somali State' but its agreed that some how we have got our selves into a bit of entangelment, which resulted in confusion and insult exchanging contest.

 

I suggest we focus back on the point of the discussion.

 

Ailamos, since you are the father of this popular debate, would you please kindly provide us with your definition of'the terms; Secular, Secularism, Sharia and State?

 

---> towards a better understanding.

[genius pauper.]

b.adeer, if on earth any religion calls for its people to think and reflect, it must be islam .period. that does not need any evidence.

 

not to understand is not a problem, but not wanting to, is.

my point is, sincere and healthy asking calls for sincere and healthy responce.

 

ps.seeking knowledge is a noble course.

[burahadeer]

Pauper .O.k.I'm gonna continue this with you.Don't keep

repeating" you're either muslim or not".Put some

stuff on the table.Don't be overtaken.

Impatient!

[burahadeer]

Iran:The Islamic Revolution.

Islam & revolution by khomeini.

 

Iranian Revolutionaries:

1.Peoples' Mujahidiin(PMOI,also MEK,MKO)(Persian).

2.Marxists(communist TUDEH party).

3.Fadaian guerillas.

4.Anti-Shah secularists.

5.Constitutional liberals.

6.Reformist Islamic freedom movement.

7.And the more secular National Front.

The most powerful was leftist Islamists (MUJ) and

opposed the influence of the clergy as

reactionary.The second most powerful were

the Marxists & the Fadaian guerillas who

had been weakened considerably by gov't

repression.Despite this the guerillas did

help play an important part in the final

Feb.1979 overthrow delivering the regime

its coup de grace.

Many in the clergy did not follow Khomeini's

lead.Popular Ayatollah Mohamoud Talegani

supported the left,while perhaps the most

senior & influential Ayatollah-Mohamed Kazem

Shariatmadari-first remained aloof & then came

out in support of a demcratic revolution.

Many observers of the revolution maintain that

while Khomeini's book(The Islamic gov't,

authority of the jurist)was distributed to

his core supporters,he & his aides were careful

no to publicize the book or the idea to

outsiders,knowing that groups crucial to the

revolution's success-secular,and islamic

modernist Iranians-were likely to be

irreconciablly opposed to theocracy.It was

only when Khomeini's core supporters had

consolidated power that the book was made

known to the general public.

Khomeini worked to unite the opposition behind

him(except the Marxists),focusing on the socio-

economic problems of the Shah,while avoiding

specifics among the general public that might

divide the factions-particularly,his plan for

clerical rule which he believed most Iranians

had become prejudiced againest.

Once in power Islamists found many frustrations

in their attempts to implement the sharia,

complaining that there were many questions,

laws and operational regulations that received

no mention in the sharia.Disputes with the

Islamic gov't compelled Khomeini himself to

proclaim in Jan.1988 that the interests of the

Islamic state outranked"all secondary ordinances"

of Islam,even prayer,fasting & pilgrimage.

The severe loss of prestige for the Fuqaha

(Islamic Jurists) as a result of disstisfaction

with the application of clerical rule in Iran

has been noted by many.In the 1980s,clerics

were generally treated with elaborate courtesy.

Nowadays,clerics are sometimes insulted by

school children & taxi drivers, and they quite

often put on normal clothes when venturing

outside Qom.

No dispute that Khomeini was a unifying

factor,but the truth is that the revolution was

shortchanged in earnest.

This shows why Islamists are the

antithesis of the democratic process.

EVERY WHERE-THE POPULACE WHEN INFORMED

REFUSE TO BE CONSTRICTED BY THE STRICT

AND THE UNCOMPROMISING>

[ailamos]

Mavericksky you're on point saxib, the topic of the thread has gone AWOL

 

genius pauper my apologies if any offence was made, let's keep this discussion in focus.

 

I won't have much time this week to add anything but will do so by Friday. Please keep it going

[Mavericksky]

Bismillah,

 

Aillamos, sxb looking forward to your definitions.

 

Burahadeer, sxb 2 questions;

1. Did you write the above article yourself or did u imported from another source?

2. What exactly does the experience of the Iranian revolution get to do with the content of this thread?

 

*fiew points to keep in point

 

i. The shah regime was SECULAR total tyranical-paranoid-police state.

 

ii.The shah regime was deeply unpopular by the vast majority of the population. Its extremly pro western, elitest and out of touch.

 

iii. Most importantly it was undemocratic, dictatorship. Infact, shah government was illegal in the sense that it was a foriegn (CIA) installed entity.

 

iv. Musadaq's democraticley elected government was toppled precisely.

[burahadeer]

First,I didn't defend the Shah.I know what the

Shah was.Exactly the way you described;I agree

with you.What I was pointing is how the Islamists

will go to a great length,to silence the people,