A Secular Somali State?

[ailamos]

Originally posted by chocolate & honey:

BTW, I assumed that you were after a genuine discussion on these issues but the fact that you agreed with Raamsade (who denounces anything Islam)tells me that my efforts were wasted. If you want to go that route, please visit the thread about Atheism. Have a lovely day sis.

I almost missed this one. Why do you assume I'm an Athiest? Just because I raise questions? Because I criticize Islam? Why? Because I am for secular governance? This is exactly the problem... just because one steps out of his/her religious emotions and tries to look at things objectively doesn't signify a loss of faith. Does it? I am not questioning the existence of God, neither am I questioning Islam as a religion. What I am questioning (and I am getting tired of saying this over and over) is the control of governance by religion.

[ailamos]

So far I've seen an amazing perpetuation of the "Us vs. Them" ideology in this post.

[Chocolate and Honey]

I almost missed this one. Why do you assume I'm an Athiest?

 

I didnt say you're an atheist. I merely meant if you want to take this discussion on the "Islamic Laws are inadequate and cannot deal with today's problems" route.

Just because I raise questions? Because I criticize Islam?

See, you can't criticize God(Islam) period! You can criticize how Muslims act, what they practice and their interpration.

Why? Because I am for secular governance? This is exactly the problem... just because one steps out of his/her religious emotions and tries to look at things objectively doesn't signify a loss of faith. Does it?

 

I didnt say you're not Muslim because you call for secular goverment. But you're tredging on dangerous waters here when, as you put it, "Step out of your religion" and by the way, what is looking at things objectively mean?

I am not questioning the existence of God, neither am I questioning Islam as a religion. What I am questioning (and I am getting tired of saying this over and over) is the control of governance by religion.

If you're questioning God's laws(by the way do you believe they're God's or someone's opinion? you're certainly questioning the competance of such laws, God. I mean you dont exactly believe they're just right?

 

[ailamos]

Happy you're back in the discussion C&H

 

So you so...

 

Originally posted by chocolate & honey:

I didnt say you're an atheist. I merely meant if you want to take this discussion on the "Islamic Laws are inadequate and cannot deal with today's problems" route.

I didn't say Islamic laws are completely inadequate, many Muslims lead pious lives by following them. The problem arises with the "ease" with which emotions come into play when formulating laws.

 

See, you can't criticize God (Islam) period! You can criticize how Muslims act, what they practice and their interpration.

I almost fell off the chair with this one. Islam is God's religion is it

not? Islam is the straight path to God is it not? Islam is not God.

 

One can criticize Islam while keeping one's faith just like one can criticize a government for ill-doing while one's keeps his/her citizenship. But that inst possible in a Sharia country because the laws are God's laws and one cannot question them. This is a very easy path to unaccountable power.

 

I didnt say you're not Muslim because you call for secular goverment. But you're tredging on dangerous waters here when, as you put it, "Step out of your religion" and by the way, what is looking at things objectively mean?

Objectively means not being swept up in religious emotions.

 

If you're questioning God's laws (by the way do you believe they're God's or someone's opinion?) you're certainly questioning the competance of such laws, God. I mean you dont exactly believe they're just right?

No, I do not exactly believe that "they're just right", nothing is "just right", unless we're talking about cloth sizes

 

And I don't want to answer the question of "the laws being God's or someone's opinion" because that's going to open a whole new can of worms which is whether or not the Quran is the literal word of God or if it contains human elements.

[ailamos]

By the way, I am not asking that you agree with me, so (again) please don't get defensive, no one's attacking Islam here.

 

I see your point(s) and all I'm asking is that people see my point, think about it and understand it. That is the basis of a healthy discussion with the aim of moving forward isn't it?

[Cicero]

The Quran and Hadith are woefully anachronistic manuals for governance.

 

By the way, whose interpretation of the lovely old book, the Quran, would take precedence, since it's all mired in opinion: sufis, wahhabis, shias, or ahmadis? Somalis need more seculairty and less religiosity. It's refreshing to see that there are many free-thinkers on SOL - a much needed presence in the face of self-righteous faith-heads.

[Chocolate and Honey]

I didn't say Islamic laws are completely inadequate, many Muslims lead pious lives by following them. The problem arises with the "ease" with which emotions come into play when formulating laws.

LOL! Ok, ? If you dont beleive they're inadequate, why are you againt Islamic states? Second, what's with this emotions you keep reffering to? Are you saying, religious people are emotional?

 

 

I almost fell off the chair with this one. Islam is God's religion is it

not? Islam is the straight path to God is it not? Islam is not God.

 

I'm glad you didnt fall of the chair and harm yourself. Let me slow it down for you: The Sharia laws are written in the Qur'an and the Qur'an is God's words precisely. So if you criticize or disagree with the Qur'an, you're disagreeing with God. I hope I'm clear enough.

One can criticize Islam while keeping one's faith just like one can criticize a government for ill-doing while one's keeps his/her citizenship.

Again, I'm confused. How are you seperating Allah from his religion? And no, criticizing man-made laws and goverments isnt the same as critiquing Almight God, OK?

But that inst possible in a Sharia country because the laws are God's laws and one cannot question them. This is a very easy path to unaccountable power.

Yes! Once you accept they're God's laws and you cant question God, we can talk about corruption, human errors, checks and balances within Islamic states, interpertations of laws and who is in power.

 

Objectively means not being swept up in religious emotions.

Here you go again with emotions. How about you take emotions such as "inhumane, unfair, should's and shouldn'ts " out of this issue? And discuss on the basis of facts and proposals?

 

 

quote:

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If you're questioning God's laws (by the way do you believe they're God's or someone's opinion?) you're certainly questioning the competance of such laws, God. I mean you dont exactly believe they're just right?

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No, I do not exactly believe that "they're just right", nothing is "just right", unless we're talking about cloth sizes

Sorry for the confusion I have caused. I meant, YOU dont believe these laws are just(as in fair), right?

 

And I don't want to answer the question of "the laws being God's or someone's opinion" because that's going to open a whole new can of worms which is whether or not the Quran is the literal word of God or if it contains human elements.

So, you're not exactly sure if the Qur'an is from God but you "believe"(I put this in quotations because to believe means to accept blindly the unknown) in Islam? Hm....

[Chocolate and Honey]

By the way, whose interpretation of the lovely old book, the Quran, would take precedence, since it's all mired in opinion: sufis, wahhabis, shias, or ahmadis? Somalis need more seculairty and less religiosity. It's refreshing to see that there are many free-thinkers on SOL - a much needed presence in the face of self-righteous faith-heads

Still ranting? Obsessions? Why so angry?

[Blessed]

Hi Ailamos,

Somalia did have a secular phase. That too was a corrupt dictatorship. Perhaps, it's just a Somali problem.

 

The Muslim world thrived under the guided Khilafah - early Islamic State. I think the problems faced by the Muslim world today is a lack of understanding of Islam and sincerity towards the faith and it's application.

 

What do think of the secular western states that get involved in personal religious matters?

 

Welcome to SOL.

[Cicero]

C&H walaalo, adigu aflagaaddada iyo asluub-xumida maxaad ku jeclaatay. Dee xanaaq iyo waxaad sheegayso ma jiraan ee waxaan ku idhi doodda ha leexin ee su'aalaha meesha lagu soo daabacay ama ka jawaab ama isaga tag.

[Chocolate and Honey]

Lol@ aflagaado. Walaalo, between you and me, everyone can see who likes aflagaado iyo cay. You calling people of faith "faith-heads," "bimbos" and "barbaric" doesnt exactly make you a gentleman now does it? All I asked you was "why are you so angry"?

Just like the other thread, you're not adding anything of value. You're just calling people names and going on a binge.

 

The poster and I are having an intelligent discussion, please don't ruin it with your tiring rants.

[Cicero]

C&H, fair enough. I just wanted to preempt any troll-like behavior on your part, because this the second time where you made a half-witted remark in response to my post. Carry on with your discussion, walaalo.

 

Dhagax, as a non-believer, I'm often dumbfounded when muslims tell me that the applicability of islamic law holds true in all times and climes; that it is as relevant in the 21st century as it was in the 7th century. But this cannot be the case since Islam still stipulates that many out-dated and oppressive institutions such as slavery are permissible in certain circumstances. It is a consensus amongst Historians that Mohammad never abolished slavery - he only regulated it. Allah speaks about many things in the Quran: from the evil of menses, to the horrors of Hell, to the killing of infidels. No mention, let alone abolition, is made of the most oppressive form of instituion in the history of humankind, slavery. Why is this?

[Chocolate and Honey]

C&H, fair enough. I just wanted to preempt any troll-like behavior on your part

[ailamos]

I like the fact that the conversation is flowing, that was what I was hoping for. C&H, Cicero and Blessed thank you for your comments, please let's keep at this level

[Cicero]

There has to be an impermeable 'wall of seperation' between religion and state so as to guuarantee principles of equality, freedom, and justice in society. Religious sentiments are many and varied, even within the same religion, even within the same sub-sect. If the Somali state were to espouse Islam as its official religion, which reading or interpreation of Islam would it choose? There is no generic, universal understanding of Islam. If the government choose one view, it would be discriminating against the others. Laws should not be based on religious views. Instead, it should be based on universal, elementary civil codes; subject to rational analysis and ammendment.

 

Though the majority of Somalis are muslims, there are many non-muslim Somalis; atheists, agnostics, christians, buddhists, hindus, confucians. The Somali state should not favor one segment of it's citizenry over the other. It should allow every group to practise its beliefs freely, promulgate its doctrines openly, thereby adding to the richness of the social fabric.