A Secular Somali State?

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by ailamos:

I hope people don't get defensive and start to "guard" their faith by climbing up the palm tree, so please try to not feel attacked, I'm just trying to raise an issue and open the floor for discussion.

 

Quite frankly - this discussion has veered completely off topic when you bring up why certain punishments are allowed in Islam or why some Malayasians are getting worked up over the word Allah.

[ailamos]

Hmm…I disagree with your first statement for two reasons: a) it’s discriminatory in nature. Are you saying if you’re a practicing Muslim man (I only said man because you seem to think women will not have religious authority) should be denied a government position? Isn’t that itself a discrimination by religion? B) Why are you assuming the masses are ignorant of their religion? As you know, in Islam everyone is required to seek knowledge. Unlike other religions, we don’t have priests that are a go-between God and us.

 

You're right it would be discrimination and outright wrong to deny a practicing person a government position, and I wasn't specific as to what I meant. Let's try again... By religious authority I meant a hardwiring of religion into government decision-making. As to your point B... I am not assuming but it's a fact that some Muslims are ignorant of their religion, just take a look at what is happening in the world today...

 

Check this out regarding the proper "punishment" of your wife: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do

and this one at a Friday sermon:

... Imagine if that guy was the Minister of Religious Affairs in a Shariah country?

--- You’re playing the “if I see it, then it must be true” game here. You certainly can debate better than this. Personal opinions and interpretations are not of importance.

 

I put out those videos for two reasons; first one being that I anticipated the response of "Islam doesn't have priests"... we don't but we do have clerics which is rather synonymous who give religious decisions e.g. fatwas and the like and who's instructions are obeyed... the second reason was to give an example of what happens when the state supports a particular religion, you will inevitably get people who stand at the podium and preach religious interspersed with their personal opinions.

 

[/QB]

[ailamos]

Originally posted by ElPunto:

quote:Originally posted by ailamos:

I hope people don't get defensive and start to "guard" their faith by climbing up the palm tree, so please try to not feel attacked, I'm just trying to raise an issue and open the floor for discussion.

 

Quite frankly - this discussion has veered completely off topic when you bring up why certain punishments are allowed in Islam or why some Malayasians are getting worked up over the word Allah.

My bad my mexican friend... but I put the punishments and the Malaysians up simply as examples of why I am against our country being governed by religious law.

[Chocolate and Honey]

You're right it would be discrimination and outright wrong to deny a practicing person a government position, and I wasn't specific as to what I meant. Let's try again... By religious authority I meant a hardwiring of religion into government decision-making.

 

Shoot! I thought we settled this issue when you agreed if and shoud the masses vote on Sharia Law, then it's their choice, no? What do goverments do by the way? They serve the needs of its citizens and protects its interests, right? So if a certain society decides they want to follow the Sharia and elect leaders whom they trust, who is to say they're wrong? Choice, Choice.

 

As to your point B... I am not assuming but it's a fact that some Muslims are ignorant of their religion, just take a look at what is happening in the world today...

Yes, some are indeed ignorant. But it is changing now. The days where people followed clerics blindly are over with. And enlighten me on whats happening in the world today? In what area are you guiding to take a closer look?

pstt... I will continue to ignore the videos as they have no merit. More like opinions. And I can afford to do that because I know my religion and I have commonsense.

 

Check this out regarding the proper "punishment" of your wife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do

and this one at a Friday sermon:

... Imagine if that guy was the Minister of Religious Affairs in a Shariah country?

--- You’re playing the “if I see it, then it must be true” game here. You certainly can debate better than this. Personal opinions and interpretations are not of importance.

 

I put out those videos for two reasons; first one being that I anticipated the response of "Islam doesn't have priests"... we don't but we do have clerics which is rather synonymous who give religious decisions e.g. fatwas and the like and who's instructions are obeyed...

Fatwas are issued and discredited by Clerics on a daily basis. The issues they issue the Fatwas on are rather mundane issues. Most legal and important issues have already been decided on and clarified by the Prophet(ppuh). So dont concern yourself too much with the Fatwas.

the second reason was to give an example of what happens when the state supports a particular religion, you will inevitably get people who stand at the podium and preach religious interspersed with their personal opinions.

The simple solution to this probmlem is to educate the masses and to elect people who are not set on their ways. And in Islamic goverements, why are you assuming there are no checks and balances? One example is Iran. Take a closer look at their constitution, preferably from non-Western source.

[ailamos]

Originally posted by chocolate & honey:

quote: You're right it would be discrimination and outright wrong to deny a practicing person a government position, and I wasn't specific as to what I meant. Let's try again... By religious authority I meant a hardwiring of religion into government decision-making.

 

Shoot! I thought we settled this issue when you agreed if and shoud the masses vote on Sharia Law, then it's their choice, no? What do goverments do by the way? They serve the needs of its citizens and protects its interests, right? So if a certain society decides they want to follow the Sharia and elect leaders whom they trust, who is to say they're wrong? Choice, Choice.

 

Agreed

 

Yes, some are indeed ignorant. But it is changing now. The days where people followed clerics blindly are over with. And enlighten me on whats happening in the world today? In what area are you guiding to take a closer look?

 

You say those days are over with? Is that a fact C&H? come on you know better than to make statements like those without backing them up

If what you're saying is true then let me call my aunt in Saudi and see if she can get a driving licence next week

 

pstt... I will continue to ignore the videos as they have no merit. More like opinions. And I can afford to do that because I know my religion and I have commonsense.

 

For the last time the videos are examples, I'm not basing my points on them.. but I feel you are rather reluctant to see them because it would start to change your mind and question things, but hey if you say that you know your religion very well then I guess I have to take your word for it.

 

The simple solution to this probmlem is to educate the masses and to elect people who are not set on their ways. And in Islamic goverements, why are you assuming there are no checks and balances? One example is Iran. Take a closer look at their constitution, preferably from non-Western source.

 

I'll take a closer look at the Iranian constitution but I don't think it's a good example judging from how repressive the regime is.

 

[ailamos]

I totally messed up the reply, sorry I'm still learning how the quotes and emphasis are used on this forum, here's the modified version:

 

Originally posted by ailamos:

[QB]Originally posted by chocolate & honey:

[qb]You're right it would be discrimination and outright wrong to deny a practicing person a government position, and I wasn't specific as to what I meant. Let's try again... By religious authority I meant a hardwiring of religion into government decision-making.

 

Shoot! I thought we settled this issue when you agreed if and shoud the masses vote on Sharia Law, then it's their choice, no? What do goverments do by the way? They serve the needs of its citizens and protects its interests, right? So if a certain society decides they want to follow the Sharia and elect leaders whom they trust, who is to say they're wrong? Choice, Choice.

 

Agreed

 

Yes, some are indeed ignorant. But it is changing now. The days where people followed clerics blindly are over with. And enlighten me on whats happening in the world today? In what area are you guiding to take a closer look?

 

You say those days are over with? Is that a fact C&H? come on you know better than to make statements like those without backing them up

If what you're saying is true then let me call my aunt in Saudi and see if she can get a driving licence next week

 

pstt... I will continue to ignore the videos as they have no merit. More like opinions. And I can afford to do that because I know my religion and I have commonsense.

 

For the last time the videos are examples, I'm not basing my points on them.. but I feel you are rather reluctant to see them because it would start to change your mind and question things, but hey if you say that you know your religion very well then I guess I have to take your word for it.

 

The simple solution to this probmlem is to educate the masses and to elect people who are not set on their ways. And in Islamic goverements, why are you assuming there are no checks and balances? One example is Iran. Take a closer look at their constitution, preferably from non-Western source.

 

I'll take a closer look at the Iranian constitution but I don't think it's a good example judging from how repressive the regime is.

 

[Raamsade]

Originally posted by Jacphar:

Would it be against democracy and 'modern standard' (need definition here) if a county chooses the Sharia due to majority vote?

Yes, since Sharia will deprive many non-Muslims of their basic human dignity and rights.

 

Sharia institutes Spiritual Apartheid not much different from the racial apartheid of former S. Africa. In the ideal Sharia based country there will be no equality of Muslims and non-Muslims in front of the law.

 

This salient point was ever present on the minds of the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) members when they rejected the UN's

and adopted its own Islamic Declaration of Human Rights. No other major world religion felt the exigency to craft its own charter of human rights. Now, why do you think that is?

 

Democracy doesn't give you the right to discriminate against others, specially minorities.

 

 

ailamos, welcome to the site and I'm glad you're sensible and courageous enough to stand for sanity and the life-affirming truth that secularism is better alternative to theocracy.

 

Secularism's greatest advantage is that it can be changed with the ever shifting zeitgeist. If a particular secular law is deemed no longer desirable, there are no immovable obstacles to changing that law. That same can't be said of theocracy where God's laws are -- as an article of faith -- immutable. This fact along should clinch it for any rational and honest person.

[ailamos]

I think we're on the same wavelength here Raamsade, I've seen firsthand in Pakistan, India, UAE and Saudi how religion can make people fail to act in a manner of basic human decency towards one another. I do consider myself a Muslim and although I've been accused of being a "Murtad", a word which I associate with other pejoratives such as Nigger, Raghead and Kaffir that Muslims have adopted to describe anyone who does not believe with the mainstream, close-minded imitation akin to Parrots spewing words they don't understand or rather refuse to understand as it would be heresy to question and critically think about religion. It certainly incenses me to see that this is how low we have stooped.

 

Let me tell you a story.

 

I was in the bus on my way to work one morning and as I sat down I spotted a South Asian looking woman across the aisle from me reading a chapter of Surat Al-Yasin. I got curious, so when we got off at the Port Authority in NYC, I asked her if she understands Arabic. She replied "not really, only a little bit". So, I asked her if she understood the words in the Quran... she got a little agitated and started with "Well..." I then asked her politely to calm down and that I meant no disrespect, but just concern as a fellow Muslim, so I advised her to get a copy of The Book in English or in her native language in order to really understand what Islam says about life and how to live it. Otherwise, I said, you will be accepting at face-value what others have interpreted, along with their personal opinions on the matter, both being mutually indistinguishable from one other. She gave me a warm smile and said 'thank you for your concern' and walked away. I felt as though I did my part.

[ailamos]

I think I went off the topic of a secular Somali state with that story but I hope people can understand the bottom line here...

[Dhagax-Tuur]

^Huuno, you got your knickers in a twist, not literally. It is 'waajib' that muslims learn about Islam rather than just follow. You seem to be meddling things here. The Sharia has nothing to do with the flawed current crop of Muslims today, or mostly. The Sharia is efficient system that can withstand any test of whatever kind, but it is a case of people not keeping abreast with the system. People, mostly, are sub standard. The beauty of Sharia can be seen when all is functioning perfectly. Muslims of today are donkey carrying a load of diamond, what does this animal know about the value of the cargo it is carrying? Nothing. In other words, fine, sound minds are sleep. It is not the system that is failing the people, people are failing the system hence the chaos that we have today.

 

So, please do not spoonfeed us the garbage that is Secularism/Capitalism. It's all BS and based on robbery (the strong, in this case, the West, robbing everyone else that is weaker and corrupting them and then pointing the finger), worldly satisfaction, race superiority etc. Don't be easily fooled.

 

"Secularism's greatest advantage is that it can be changed with the ever shifting zeitgeist"

- Yes, it is because, it is made by a flawed human whose entire wisdom is based on the moment hence why we say 'a hindsight is a 20:20 vision' which tells you that the human mind is really limited. Look at the Iraq war and all the actions taken in the past which humanity regrets. However, the 'Ilm Laah' is totally free from such impurities, which I know you wouldn't agree. But is true if you closely look at it and with sound mind. I know this requires a beleiving mind or super fine mind to grasp, no insult intended and if you take it as such, I couldn't care less. However, my point is, would you rather believe in a system made by the Creator of this wonderful Universe or few shitt!ng, eating and sleeping beings like you who're as useless as you can be and needs updating all the while? What would you rather take?

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by ailamos:

quote:Originally posted by ElPunto:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ailamos:

I hope people don't get defensive and start to "guard" their faith by climbing up the palm tree, so please try to not feel attacked, I'm just trying to raise an issue and open the floor for discussion.

 

Quite frankly - this discussion has veered completely off topic when you bring up why certain punishments are allowed in Islam or why some Malayasians are getting worked up over the word Allah.

My bad my mexican friend... but I put the punishments and the Malaysians up simply as examples of why I am against our country being governed by religious law.

The punishments and the Malaysians are not enough to allow you to discard an entire system of governance and thought. I suggest you ask questions and learn more before jumping to conclusions.

[ailamos]

Originally posted by Dhagax-Tuur:

^Huuno, you got your knickers in a twist, not literally. It is 'waajib' that muslims learn about Islam rather than just follow. You seem to be meddling things here. The Sharia has nothing to do with the flawed current crop of Muslims today, or mostly. The Sharia is efficient system that can withstand any test of whatever kind, but it is a case of people not keeping abreast with the system. People, mostly, are sub standard. The beauty of Sharia can be seen when all is functioning perfectly.

While I greatly appreciate your input, it seems to me that you're a tad bit blindfolded and a bit of an idealist. "The Shariah is an efficient system..." you say, show me proof (in this day and age, not a thousand years ago) and I will believe you and drop this matter altogether. You talk about "Waajib" and although I think you're spot on, I see that you didn't understand the little story I narrated. Do people fulfill this "Waajib"? The simple answer is "No". I mentioned several countries at the beginning of this post that have Shariah as the primary system of dispensing justice, we can take any of them as an example if you so wish. You say that "beauty of Sharia can be seen when all is functioning perfectly" well isn't that a rather simplistic statement that can be applied to everything including Nazism.

 

Muslims of today are donkey carrying a load of diamond, what does this animal know about the value of the cargo it is carrying? Nothing. In other words, fine, sound minds are sleep. It is not the system that is failing the people, people are failing the system hence the chaos that we have today.

No argument there.

 

So, please do not spoonfeed us the garbage that is Secularism/Capitalism. It's all BS and based on robbery (the strong, in this case, the West, robbing everyone else that is weaker and corrupting them and then pointing the finger), worldly satisfaction, race superiority etc. Don't be easily fooled.

I will not stop spoonfeeding because apparently you don't want to eat your vegetables (a secular society) because you are ignorant that they are good for you. When you grow up and see that the junkfood (gripping religion too tightly) you cherish so much will one day give you diabetes. You just don't know it yet. I am amazed that you brought up Capitalism when there was no mention of it. I am no fan of that system either so please stop making falsely equating Secularism with Capitalism.

 

In retrospect, I do understand what you mean by "the West, robbing everyone else that is weaker and corrupting them and then pointing the finger", I really do. 50 years after the fall of colonialism the former colonial powers and the US exert tremendous influence and control over the former colonies, no disagreement there, but this is not the point of this post.

 

This hatred of the West is causing you to grip your Quran ever so tightly and refuse to see that their system of governance works. Why do you keep equating a secular system with a total lack of religious values. A country can be overwhelmingly Chrisitian (e.g. Austria) or Muslim (e.g. Turkey) and have a secular system of governance to order to prevent intense religious emotions mixing with lawmaking. Let's look at the Swiss referendum on banning minarets as a classic example. The conservative party stirred up the religious emotions of the population by created a non-existent threat from Islam... The supreme court in Switzerland, a country that has 6% Muslims (out of which less than 13% are practicing), will probably overturn the ban because it's secular country. This is what happens when you mix religion with politics and viceversa.

 

- Yes, it is because, it is made by a flawed human whose entire wisdom is based on the moment hence why we say 'a hindsight is a 20:20 vision' which tells you that the human mind is really limited. Look at the Iraq war and all the actions taken in the past which humanity regrets.

If you keep putting yourself down and limiting your intellectual though process then that is your problem. If you would rather just listen and obey instead of think and act then that is your problem. If you would rather just sit in the Masjid and recite Du'a all day asking for peace in our homeland instead of thinking about it with a free and independent mind then that is your matter. I personally would rather critically think of how we can get our people out of this misery.

 

You mention the Iraq War, which is proof that a secular system of governance comes with flaws just like any other system and the flaw in this case has religious roots. Don't make me go into the details, we all know it.

 

However, the 'Ilm Laah' is totally free from such impurities, which I know you wouldn't agree. But is true if you closely look at it and with sound mind. I know this requires a beleiving mind or super fine mind to grasp, no insult intended and if you take it as such, I couldn't care less. However, my point is, would you rather believe in a system made by the Creator of this wonderful Universe or few shitt!ng, eating and sleeping beings like you who're as useless as you can be and needs updating all the while? What would you rather take?

No insult taken here, so don't worry, however, there is no need to point fingers (e.g. "like you"), we're trying to have an intelligent conversation here so if you can't handle it and start with these kind of wordings then I don't think there is any point in talking to you. Try, just try, to have an open-minded critical view of your religion, believe me you won't be a heretic just because people say so, ultimately God is the judge, isn't He? Islam needs deep reflection and thought... an enlightenment of sorts, to purge out the "donkeys" as you put it. Gripping the Quran and vehemently "defending" the religion at the outset of any criticism is exactly why I do not want religion hardwired in the lawmaking. Period.

[ailamos]

Originally posted by ElPunto:

The punishments and the Malaysians are not enough to allow you to discard an entire system of governance and thought. I suggest you ask questions and learn more before jumping to conclusions.

My conclusions are based on observations. The Malaysian case and the punishments, which I think (from your post) you concede that they do bring some shame to the "perfect system", were merely examples. I think living in the UAE, having relatives in Saudi, and traveling to Yemen gives me enough knowledge don't you think?

[Chocolate and Honey]

No it doesnt. Personal experiences are irrelavant to this discussion.

BTW, I assumed that you were after a genuine discussion on these issues but the fact that you agreed with Raamsade(who denounces anything Islam)tells me that my efforts were wasted. If you want to go that route, please visit the thread about Atheism.

Have a lovely day sis.

[ailamos]

Originally posted by chocolate & honey:

No it doesnt. Personal experiences are irrelavant to this discussion.

BTW, I assumed that you were after a genuine discussion on these issues but the fact that you agreed with Raamsade(who denounces anything Islam)tells me that my efforts were wasted. If you want to go that route, please visit the thread about Atheism.

Have a lovely day sis.

Don't get upset. If you read what our Mexican contributor wrote "I suggest you ask questions and learn more before jumping to conclusions". See, he said "learn more"... I think talking to people in those countries and knowing about the attitudes, beliefs etc. is good first step isn't it? Not to mention reading reading a few books here and there