Atheism/Lets talk about GOD!

[rudy-Diiriye]

scientific kulaha! lol.. what a joke. So u wanna jump up and down on chair and scream where is god like Tom Cruise! lol

 

Yo haji, i use to be like u but i am over it now.

I would recommend to get back in touch with the somali community and get your mind straighten up!

 

People do change and i hope the best for u. Happy Ramadaan homie.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

So going to the Somali community will all the sudden make one religious?

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Norfsky:

You said it yourself

here

.

Allow me to say just this one in Svenska.

 

suck och bedrövelse !

It's something like, trials and tribulations!, shock and horror or a strong Oy Vey.

 

Originally posted by Norfsky:

Just get on with it. I would really like to debate with you without repeating myself a hundred times in the process.

 

As I said, the floor is yours gents. Present what you will however you wish to present it with as many caveats as you please.

Ahhh,

How does one define 'sulking off' and 'political theism' again?!

So much for civility and willingness to debate open-mindedly.

 

What is the point of presenting the attempted proofs of a scientific theory to someone whose understanding of the scientific method can be summed up in the following:

 

(1) Flabble glurk zoom boink blubba snurgleschnortz ping!

(2) No one has ever refuted (1).

(3) Therefore, God exists.

[N.O.R.F]

^Evasive as ever. I can only conclude that you're not capable of holding your own when it comes to discussing Atheism. I sense you're waiting for someone to bail you out. Lets hope Raamsade comes back with something more than bread crumb tactics.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

^ why don't take crack at proofing his existence if like he says he has to proof his nonexistence

[Johnny B]

^ Naxar , don't blow his cover dee !

Odagu intaa yar bu gabaad ka dhigan waad ogtee.

 

Nrof, So the whole mantra of being deadly sanctimonious, 'Mutawa' per excellence, shrinks behind certain provability/disprova bility regading certain scientific theory.

Oh, the irony !.

 

Are there other scientific theories whose provability/disprova bility strengthens/weakens your sanctimony?, as you don't seem to be able to account for it scientifically.

[N.O.R.F]

^Stay under that rock. Who knows you might grow/evolve some wings

[LayZie G.]

^do yourself a favour and hit the book store and make sure you get mr wright's "evolution of God" as in Robert Wright inta aa meelahaan meereysaneysid.

 

 

PS: both Johnny and North are onto something but only if North can come off his cave long enough to hear abti johnny sermon.

[N.O.R.F]

^bow bow

 

Welcome LG. Give me a synopsis of the book.

 

ps Johnny has pleaded the 5th but I still hope Raamsade brings the goods.

[The_Siren]

I really didn’t want to post anything here despite my initial like of this topic. I found it rather interesting and thought provokingly baffling even though I did find the notion of trying to argue the lords existence to atheists a rather naive if sweet and humorously beguiling idea.

 

But You know…

 

Some aspects of Evolution and so called comparative anatomy is not dissimilar to those wondrous fairy tales children hear in books. Why? Well do scientists not have to use their “imagination” to see how a certain muscle from a hind leg of a (50 million year old creature) would have moved in a creature deemed to be its modern day ancestor? An example of which is the that whole-Jurassic park bird fiasco that put it into the average Joes head that “birds” have indeed evolved from dinosaurs. Is that so? Well what was the evidence for this blasé attempt at understanding? Oh yes well its because one palaeontologist just happened to have found a Fossil (Archaeopteryx) which is thought to be the missing link between birds and reptiles,,,oh and because the fossil had tiny bits of teeth on its beak thus concluding the grand notion that birds came from Dinosaurs. Now what these paradigms of unearthly scientific splendour perhaps seemed to have forgotten at the time is that modern day geese for example have also got teeth, there are also some species of birds living today which have claws on their wings. So what I don’t understand is that how could such a notion have got through at actually science? Simply because of a superficial link one easilt comes to the conclusion that this is “proof” that birds came from dinosaurs? Well my friends there is no fossil record to date where one can make an irrefutable claim that for example birds came from dinosaurs and thus equally and more humorously (much to the disdain of eager-Darwinists) humans from a greater ape.

 

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that there isn’t excellent evidence in the form of natural selection- ie microevolution (small changes large beak-small beak-Galapagos studies) but macro-evolution? (leaving aside changes in genetic shift-and thus speciation-which is pretty interesting) Well its hard to just “believe” if the existence of a “water-tight” argument fails at a several hurdles. Ie, incomplete fossil records, genetic-irregulariti es (which is why neo-darwisnism came about because the initial theory of Darwin’s evolution-went against the basic principles of genetics altogether)

 

…which brings me to idea of mutations if said mutations are to have a desired positive effect-ie for the purpose of natural selection? And thus survival then how come nearly every human mutation comes a direct result of “hindering” its subject. Ie Sickle cell (Don’t even mention the protective effects of malaria-when there is a 1 in four chance of conceiving a dead baby ie with fatal Sickle cell anaemia while the half carry it and other lot survives without the baggage of carrying a lethal condition. How on earth can that be a benefit?

 

Another example is Down syndrome -you’d think that an increase in genetic material and thus increase in the complexity of an orgasm would enhance ones survival options as is suggested by Darwin’s own ideas but neigh-you find that quite the opposite, as today all significantly altering mutations existing within human actually occurs as a detriment to the species and not as an adaptive advantage.

 

Furthermore to this-genetic alterations (mutations) can only ever occur within a set limit of existing genetic material and genetic material is not spontaneously produced like the X-men-(as Stan Lee’s Marvel Comics enterprise want to believe)…No, any deletions, duplications or crosslinking alterations which do occur all do so at the expense of shuffling about new information or…losing certain features/variations in a downward trend. Simply put- I will always be a black arsed qaxooti gazing up at the moon and much to my own chagrin will not sprout majestic wings Icarus himself would be proud of.

 

So to conclude…Let us be open minded-critical but most of all allow us to learn more instead of boxing people in with either the Holier than art though angle (faith) or the I’m better that you kiss my @ss “scientific” route.

 

That’s why I am of the supposition that one should be open to anything relatively stimulating not forgetting for which there is legitimate quantitative evidence-or the best we have at hand. Evolution being but one answer…That’s not to suggest that I don’t believe in Allah subxanawatacala. It just means that I’m human and Allah knows my limits and understands man obsession and desire to learn of his world and where he fits in it.

 

Why then must I be forced to box myself into niches and notions which are and can never be in themselves perfect?…..Watch this space- science is progressive and we learn and find out new things everyday. Which is very much like faith-because no matter how much we try to intellectualise things and debauch our minds with philosophical musings humanity has always (through time) and will forever come to accept and lie in the bosom of there being something greater than themselves. That’s why I believe that humans are inherently agnostic instinctually so even-despite all reason and “logic” each of us still fight to believe in something. For even the belief in no god is in itself a remarkably contradictory belief structure. LOL

 

Reminds me of a quote I once heard from Einstein, religion without science is blind and science without religion is boring. LOL

I am not insulting religion or science. I’m simply saying that-there isn’t a clear answer either way and seen as though we’re all in it together perhaps it would be best to try to resolve things for which there is empirical evidence and leave aside (or leave for the heart) all else?

 

Let us leave it at that.

Now a question I find far more interesting is..this notion of free will and does it truly exist?

[N.O.R.F]

^Good post. However, I think you have chosen to be overly diplomatic towards the nay sayers (a good thing). Unfortunately I don't have such attributes (an evolutionary miss??). Maybe if I did we would get some progress in this discussion.

[The_Siren]

^-I'll be honest It really wasn't my intention to come across as diplomatic because in truth I was relaying my own personal ideas and a few critisms that exist when it comes to evolution. Because I've kind of read around the subject rather extensively I find it very difficult to completely disregard evolution as simply a "theory". Its rather interesting and is as yet one of the many "imginative" ideas as to the worlds creation thus far, but unlike Faith he brings to the table some sort measurable evidence which sure questionable at times (but that is the essence of science to learn-to adapt and to continue answering burning questions. Funny thing is-its been around for thousands of years and is more a philisophical understanding of the creation. Having said that there are very compelling evidence-which actually suggests that evolution can occur within a couple of hundred thousand years instead of billions as Darwin's initial idea is want to believe. (Look up the Fossil records within than lake thingy-magigy)

 

But this by all means does not suggest there is not a creator who bore us each as is described within the quran. It simply means that perhaps we are unable to concieve how precisely this was done and mayhap its been simplified for our understanding? Symbolic even? Perhaps?..

 

Then again we are wont to believe that life simply burst forth from a primodial ooze-produced via atmospheric temperatures and components which have come together in a compressed matter. But where did this matter come from? Existence of its own accord? The Big bang? And where and why for example did the Big Bang occur and what was there before it? It all requires a sense of imgination-much like faith. So I find it rather ironic and amusing that people would sit on the "I'm smarter than you foolish-religionites " bandwagon-smack others with encyclopedias-when most of humanities most burning questions remain unanswered from an evidential point of veiw. We're all striving to understand so its best we sit back and take a more humbling route seen as though its never going to be clear as crystal.

 

Those from a religous perspective also should sit back and not insult peoples intelligence. We're far more likely to understand things if we're not each trying to out-wit one another in the battle of bickering foolishness dee.

 

I'm off now....peace iyo baris.

[N.O.R.F]

^Fair enough. That I agree with.

 

However, my bone of contention is with the Atheist premise that evolution is 100% accurate/infallible and it is how they came into being without them having ample evidence/proof. In the same breath, they are adamant that God doesn’t exist because science can’t prove it. Why then, if science is the only way they wish to determine the issue, do they sit on one side of the fence and not ‘on’ the fence itself?

 

I haven't had a suitable explanation to date.

[The_Siren]

^-Its human arrogance and they themselves are guilty of being precisely just as ignorant as the “religious” fanatics that they detest. Because the blind “belief” that god doesn’t exist is in itself a form of “faith” for which there is no reasonable evidence. Simply because something is still out of ones understanding and grasp of nature is by no means an indication as to its inexistence or lack of potential to affect the universe as we know it. Nothing but deaf, dumb and blind arrogance….

 

Like I said, I don’t personally believe or give credence to this notion of “true” atheism- as I think humans are all inherently agnostic and those who argue vehemently otherwise obvious have something to prove to themselves. Subconscious perhaps but if people were happy with their own beliefs then why argue with us simple subjects?

 

Again if one was so secure in his or her belief that there is no god they would in general be content with such a finding a rarely have the energy or time to argue with those with those who believe in the hereafter. Often those who are apposed certain ideas ie the notion of a super being are angry and hostile because subconsciously they’re just like us…they want to believe in something they just have difficulty putting their heads around it because they’re so fixated with the idea of there being “proof”. Some things truly are (as of yet) unexplainable and beyond our comprehension. For example what interests me is the anecdotal evidence gathered from people who’ve momentary had “near death” experiences-how some of these patients/people where able to identity with terrifying detail what doctors and nurses we saying and visually doing when they themselves were clinically presumed “dead”

 

How can such things be explained? And why is it that there is a universal/historical trend towards such ideas of “going into the light” seeing demons and angels and in dreams, having near death experiences etc. Coincidental psychoses? Or a slither of truth amongst a rubble of unexplainable phenomenon? It’s rather extraordinary if you ask me. One in which I have no answer for…I can only keep an open mind Allahu-Calam.

[The_Siren]

In anycase... it really shouldn’t bother you too much, understand that people are human and arrogance is blind-understand that and you’ll be able to accept them as they are. They are Allah’s creation and it is he whom decides for us and seen as those we don’t have any real power (come on now lets be honest *controversial I know*) I don’t see why it should stress you that much. Have confidence in your iman smile, discuss and talk to your hearts content..but understand also that we all find our paths a little differently and sometimes it takes a while. Patience is truly a virtue.

 

Then again I've always been a laid back sort. *Stress her legs and then gets back to work*