Transcendentally tempted ?

[Johnny B]

"The imagination draws a fanciful picture of a transcendental reality, some kind of celestial kingdom. Time and again theistic myth appeals to the hungry soul; it feeds the creative imagination and soothes the pain of living. There must be something beyond this actual world, which we cannot see, hear, feel or touch. There must be a deeper world, which the intellect ponders and the emotions crave. Here is the opening for the transcendental impulse. Yes, says the imagination, these things are possible. It then takes one leap beyond mere possibility to actuality. "

 

 

a A great read if you're intrested in why others believe what they believe

 

That leap entails an unforgiveable inconsistency in the way to Bedrock,the people of faith get uppset more frequently with each other and with anyone who questions or tests their belief. to be believed is of vital significance for the people of faith, hence the constant attempt of trying to convince the others that they're neither mentally disturbed nor superstitious or primitive in their mind-set,its a position that demands validation, If others believe it then it's all true, if not , then the mote can only be 'has to be' in the other's eyes.

 

To believe in the paranormal requires two rationally compromising positions taken, first beeing an actual ignorance of the natural causes of the event(s) in question, and the second is the lazy assumption that, in the absence of an 'obvious' natural cause, there must be an un-known and un-natural cause. Ceteris Paribus ?!

 

Intrestingly,on the other hand,their ability to uncompromisingly critique and question other religions rationally is adoreable and inspiring, yet,on the same breath, that level of rationality and uncompromising critique substantially drops regarding the validity of their own beliefs .

 

How aware are you of your transcendental temptation?

[Positive]

We are like the savage who standing at a shoreline contemplates how far he is from the point in the horizon where the sky meets the earth. From his position he will never believe that the horizon is ever receding phenomena and that he will never reach a meeting point.

 

The savage though is obviously right when he thinks that in fact the earth and sky meet. We can claim that unless you take him around the world he will stay in his Conviction. That what he is perceiving as true is an illusion never happens to him and it becomes incredible even when you tell him about the true nature ef the horizon.

 

Likewise unless we visit the inner dimensions of Life in conscious state we will never really know that those dimensions exist. Hence scepticism is understandable if one has not crossed to the other side. But again negation with strong conviction that there exists nothing except that which the sensory organs perceive is to say the least naïve.

 

We have choice to stay in our conviction that nothing exists beyond our reality or we can try to figure out whether we can cross the ocean to visit the other side.

 

It is only those we have crossed to the other side and came back that are genuinely capable to say what the transcedental state contains. We the others who have comfortable stayed in this side of reality have no right to make empty comments. We can nevertheless believe the words of the messengers who bring the word of God to us, have faith in them and sincerely obey their instructions.

 

The transcendental state is a matter of awareness.

 

Thanks

 

The awakener2

[xiinfaniin]

Johnny B , I admire your passion for finding the truth of things. I am however afraid that you are risking being the proverbial one-eyed woman that good Hadrawi depicted in one of his poems to illustrate the difficulty of finding the true reality of things when the one doing the quest is utterly ill equipped to find what he/she looking for even if he/she so genuinely attempts to find it! There he posed the story of a highly ambitious woman who, after years of praying for pregnancy, gave birth to what he termed as a precious son, and suddenly lost it on the spot, and then commenced so hurriedly to get it back.

 

In her efforts to find her much awaited and cherished son, here are the challenges/obstacles good Hadrawi puts before her:

 

1- She has only one eye---her sight is compromised.

2- She never saw the son she is looking for---her knowledge of him is clearly lacking

3- As if to make the matters even more cumbersome for her, this one eyed-woman has a peculiar birth defect where the anatomy of her sole eye is unnaturally out of place---her eye is on top of her head, to make use of it, she grabs objects of interest, lifts them above her head, and checks against her eye to actually see them!

 

More interesting is how the said woman lost her newborn in the first place but lets stay with the challenges before her to overcome and enjoy the motherhood she so desperately wanted.

 

In the fear of you interpreting my analogy quite literally, let me say that you not the one eyed woman. Getting that out of way, and in a bid to extract some lasting wisdom from you, let me say that you and she have few things in common . You both have different impairments with the same effects. You both use same methodology to validate things that resemble the truth you are looking for.

 

 

Ninkii adeerkaa ahaa ee xikmadda miiran ah bal soo daliisho jboy..waa kukaas...

[Johnny B]

Possitive,

Though i do understand the analogy of the 'savage who standing at a shoreline ' and what it coveys , namely, that there're natural hinders to our understanding of the physical world, i don't exactly understand what the 'inner dimensions of Life ' coveys,so forgive me.

I'd appreciate more, had you expounded on the understanding of the skeptic who acknowledges his inability to know about the unknowable and the naivity of the negator who equally acknowledges his disbelief in the unknowable as presented by those who claim to know the unknowable and what the unknowable might want.

 

To validate the genuinity of what is claimed to have come from the other side, what measures can one as a person take? and how difficult is it to claim ones own ideas to have come from the other side? why (if any reason) the msg from the other side is "always" the last one? and lastly, against what you validate any claim of a particular msg beeing from the other side if not reality?.

 

 

Xiin,

I'm afraid that i diden't entirely grasp the gist of analogy of the one-eyed woman, lest the complexity delivered at her ability to motherhood is proportioned to the normative complexity faced by "normal" women who equally desire and long for motherhood, she is to kick dead whales down the beach to overcome the extra hurdles.

 

All i could think of was a female version of Quasimodo , and that may or may not be desireable to convey the gist.

 

Feel free good-Xiin, i'm but literalist to that point, so fear no more.

 

 

 

 

ps/ Atheero , is unavailable for comment!

[xiinfaniin]

^^You have only one eye to validate things...

[Positive]

Good Jb that you say that......there are natural hinders to our understanding of physical world.

 

I may add that the inner dimensions are inaccessible to us through and by the physical sensory organs. These inner dimensions called also the unseen lie beyond the range where our sensory organs can respond to their stimuli! The same natural hinders that covers from us of the existence of some of the contents in our physical reality hides also the inner dimensions. In brief the unseen does not objectively exist for those who are living in this side of reality.

 

Still our biological sensory incapability can not invalidate the existence of the hereafter or what it may contain. Our feeling organs are tuned to a narrow band in the spectrum of light and therefore in practice anything that exists below or above this narrow area is not tangible for us- but it is still there.

 

If you were expecting that will give facts you should now be disappointed. But from my perspective, if I may use this as a analogy not to belittle you, in the same way that a color blind person cannot be sufficiently explained to for the intricate colors and beauty of nature so have I problems to convey you the true nature of the hereafter for the simple reason that you are a realist. Neither can I answer your questions when you are not willing to adapt to a investigative mood of mind. To just discuss for the sake of discussion may become a waste of energy from both your side and my side.

 

Unless you choose to become open minded about the possible existence of the hereafter we can not continue our discussion in a fruitful manner. I said similar words in another thread.

 

 

Thanks

 

The Awakener2

[N.O.R.F]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

^^You have only one eye to validate things...

[Johnny B]

^Thanks brother Possitive , as always,i do appreciate the open mindedness and the possitive attitude towards our differing stances.

 

From what i could gather, you've concealed our ignorance of some natural causes and essences just to immediately turn around and infer 'God' and/or the 'hearafter' as the cause, a 'God' an 'Allah' if you must, whom it is impossible to form any idea of, thus, God becomes the grandson of our ignorance of natural causes whose archrival is our eventual knowledge of natural causes.

 

Humanity has always respected the unknown,and it is on this rable of the unknown natural causes that you seem to raise the flag of the imaginary colossus of divinity.

 

 

It could not have scaped you that i don't and can't challenge the possibility of the hereafter,but it is rather it's actuality i question.

 

 

Xiin ,

 

It is true that i've my limitations, and its more true that i don't share certain belief in certain powers, but that i lack one eye or my ayes can only validate certain things and can't validate other things that are so obvious and easily spotted by the majority is pregnant to say the least, i can imagine many things, i can (among other things) imagine the existence of a Diety, and that would place the onus probandi on my shoulders if i were to claim respectively believe the actuality of my imagination, it would however not put me in a position where i could level shortsightedness at anybody who can't affirm my imaginary beeings.

 

Norf,

i coulden't agree more !!

[Positive]

Thanks Jb for your frank discussion.

 

First I have to commend you for your acceptance of the possibility of the existence of the hereafter. It means that you are only one step from becoming an ( ardent ) believer – if you are not already one !

 

Second the actuality of the existence of the hereafter as I already said can not be objectively proofed to you for the simple reason that mere words can not proof anything. Regardless of how many words I use I can not bring the reality of the unseen to you. Neither can anyone else.

 

When that is said I think that reason and logic are sufficient as initial step to bring in the person a conviction that God exists.The same reason and logic could resolve the question about the existence of the inner dimensions. Anyway the easiest step to take is to believe without qualms that God exists and that He has been sending messengers to us throughout the ages. We are on sound ground when we just obey and act on the information we have received through our beloved prophet Mohamed ( pbuh ) Eventually if one is not yet satisfied one could become a disciple of a teacher who can show him the mystic path. A sufi teacher for example who himself have had transcendental experiences and is adept on the path can teach one. Through this mystic path the devotee can hope, by the GRACE of God to gain haqqiqa (the unveiling of the unseen).

 

Choices are actions brother and they have consequences. If you negate something or someone you divorce your self from it and put barrier between your self and person/thing. On the other side when you accept something or someone you commit relationship with it/him and it/he stays in your vicinity. That is why it is essential to believe the existence and oneness of the Supreme Being, Allah, creator of the universe. Through acceptance you establish CONSCIOUS relationship with Him and may receive His abundant compassion. Besides if you become among those who really love and adore Allah, those who are really His friends, by His GRACE you could be transported to higher station of being where you would witness other realities of His creations or get your questions answered.

 

The above paragraph explains why one needs God in his Life. It is the persons who gains from the relationship not the other way round. By negating Allah, your creator, you voluntarily close the door to yourself. Consequently whatever you are lacking in your Life may come from your own doing because you are negating THE GIVER- as God is the giver of everything.

 

Third I never said that we are cause for our biological or other shortcomings and strength. All things: Good and bad, up and down, right and wrong, perfection and imperfection, IGNORANCE and wisdom, the devil and angels etc. are the creations of God. Things are created for us so that we can experience them and learn from them. That is how right judgment and wisdom comes about to us. We are supposed to make best use of whatever we are given! If you use your talents to the best of your ability, observe your religious duties, and try to bring good to all concerned then your life has not been in vain.

 

This much for now

 

The Awakener2

[Nehanda]

Johnny

Sometimes reality can not be justified by our senses. Nonetheless there are various individuals who tend to defend their belief based on what their common sense tells rather than to be authentic.

 

It seems that you have formed your conclusions with regard to the existence of Allah if so how different are you from those who are obtuse to question their values.

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Nehanda:

Sometimes reality can not be justified by our senses.

so? so we might as well take our whims for real?

 

Originally posted by Nehanda:

Nonetheless there are various individuals who tend to defend their belief based on what their common sense tells rather than to be authentic..

Is that what we're witnessing here?,native intelligence ( common sense ) is basically innocent, it once held a vision of a flat earth.

 

Originally posted by Nehanda:

It seems that you have formed your conclusions with regard to the existence of Allah if so how different are you from those who are obtuse to question their values. ..

Well, i could only answer that once you've told me how like them you think i am.

 

In a sense , i'm different from them as you're different from those who beleive in a spaghetti monster.

 

Possitive,

Thanks brother,No one else could put it better.

 

"Anyway the easiest step to take is to believe without qualms that God exists and that He has been sending messengers to us throughout the ages. We are on sound ground when we just obey and act on the information we have received through our beloved prophet Mohamed ( pbuh ) "

 

And i coulden't agree more.

[Positive]

JB,

 

Don't you think that we are like the flatlanders that can not know of the three dimentional reality without....you know....woooops being transported to this higher dimension ?

 

Toosiye2

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

"It is better to read the weather forecast before we pray for rain."

[Muriidi]

excuse me but this which you call paranormal just sounds like pausing a film or a dream , zooming into a certain moment and playing with the possibilities.

 

i understand,many things that happen are an insult to any intelligent creature...

 

but there must be a better way of dealing with it..

[ANTARA]

Originally posted by Positive:

JB,

 

Don't you think that we are like

the flatlanders

that can not know of the three dimentional reality without....you know....woooops being transported to this higher dimension ?

 

Toosiye2

By far the most logical scientific argument that I can think of when justifying the existence of a creator, even though I require none.

 

So the task before the non believers is to figure out what the fifth dimension is.