Newsflash - Time may not exist...Boohoo!

[Legend of Zu]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

 

Legend Of Zu,

 

Time is what's measured adeer, and its measurement is relative to the one doing the measuring...

 

I expected more than that from you, brother. You are teasing our intelligence when you cite the relativity of Time to be sufficient enough to contradict its existence!

Far from teasing you sxb...I was just planting the point to stop for your thinking journey.

Lately I have been overwhelmed by work so I'm short of time (the irony eh!).

 

BTW, positive and I do not agree on most of what he wrote but I'll respond to him later on.

 

I am hoping to get some free time next week I'A and i'll respond and post until you find it sufficient to your liking

 

Cheers

[Cara.]

And if it does exist, it may be running out.

[xiinfaniin]

Positive, I did not say Sufism is bad! I only suggested that your choice definition of time has a Sufi tilt, a caprice you’ve happily confirmed. So take it easy adeer! You requested me to give you my definition of time. I did that---and I see no reason to restate it again.

 

L o Z, any time saaxiib!

[Positive]

My definition of time has a sufi tilt? I do not understand that brother! I'm not here to tell any one about what time is or is not theologically or otherwise. Like LOZ time is a subject that interests me.

 

So feel free to share with us whatever you know about the aubject . Besides you may give me your feedback about this presentation which supposedly have islamic tilt.

 

Toosiye2

[Caano Geel]

[takes a deep breath before jumping into this thorn bush ] ..

 

[newtonian viewpoint of time:]

- Time is real and absolute, regardless of where you are in the universe time keeps a constant beat, is fixed and never varies. More fundamentally time keeps everything in the universe in synch. he concluded that its so bafflingly ordered that it must be preordained, and fixed to run -- as a clockwork and in effect, both past and future are known to the clock maker.

Therefore, there is always one time and one now..

 

[quantum viewpoint of time:]

- Time is as real as the physical space you inhabit, but it's change is relative to the speed of the observer. The faster the observer moves, the slower the clock ticks. so at the singularity of a blackhole were matter (or what ever matter is in that location) moves at the speed of light, theory says, that time stops.

 

The funky bit is this, *if* time is a dimension like space and every bit of space exists now, then every bit of time also exits now. So the future, the present and the past .. well co-exist, now, yesterday and tomorrow... you get the idea. Even weirder, this means time travel to the future is possible. Actually this last one is routinely tested and proven. When satellites go up, they have to be calibrated (the tick rate sped up) so that their clocks don't go out of sync with the earth due to the difference in their relative speed of orbit.

 

 

[time at the Plank scale]

This the stuff the article is on, and its funky .. basically Plank temperature is the highest possible under the assumption of quantum theory. If you go past it, its not just the notion of time, but space that goes funky. Basic according to the peeps in the know of funky equations.

 

Basically since heat is energy, at the Planck temperature (10^32 Kelvin)

"Theory predicts that particle energies become so large that the gravitational forces between them become as strong as any other forces. That is, gravity and the other three fundamental forces of the universe—electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces—become a single unified force. "

umm hence since space collapses, so does time.

 

Problem here is that no one knows if this is so, because as yet, there is no consistent theory of what happens beyond the Plank temperature...

 

So when these guys talk about what happens at Planck scale and below, they are talking about what happens to what we know as the fundamental forces of physics at the absolute limits of energy and are in effect asking what are the building blocks.

 

 

--

On a side note, an interesting observation of time comes from quantum physicists. In brief it says if all time exits at any given point in time and you can travel forward in time by speeding up, how can you travel back in time?

 

It turns out that funky maths says that you can get to point in space and time before light (i.e. travel back in time) by having more energy than a few galaxies put together and either creating a spinning vortex like a black hole (watch this great documentary ) -- but realistically you would need civilisations with the powers of a god to pull that one off.

 

But another bunch of wackier physicists say that you don't need to. You can simulate it. They argue that given computing power doubles every year or so, probability says that a civilisation in the far future would have the computing power to simulate (virtual reality style) the complexity of the kind of world we live in down to the atomic level. and further they could run billions of simulations and hence virtually every tragic turn and possibility and branch in on our planet and lives and universe could be simulated in detail and in parallel, therefore no need to travel in time, just choose the alternate reality.

 

But the *tragic* consequence is this, if you take the possibly as remotely likely, then 1. time does not exist since your a character of a possibility. 2. You don't exist - since the probability of you being the only real one in a universe of characters is one in a billion 3. and ummmm paradoxically newton's universe of constants comes back, since a computer is always deterministic and all is forever known.

[xiinfaniin]

Positive, that was a good read. thanks for sharing it. Lest I mislead you, I am neither a scientist nor a theologian! Hence my previous objections to your assertions were the work of my common sense. I hope you now realize that the notion of ‘Time does not exist’ is the controversy here. That time exists is an old school of thought. Whether it exists in obsolete or relative terms is beside the point really.

 

Camel Milk, thanks for the able expositions.

[Legend of Zu]

Xiin,

I think I have spare time tonite and I am in the mood to indulge you with few amateurish arguments regarding “time definition” which I call the mind twister.

 

Lets understand what is the point of contention here, in the article the “Time may not exist” is not an entirely proven fact but the possibility was raised thru the experiments discussed in the article.

 

When I reread some of your comments yaa xiin, I understood your arguments revolve around two things; Time exists and it is linear! Secondly, you argued on the basis that what being measured is time, i.e. how people use the concept.

Now what I like to highlight here is the need to separate how the common people use the term “time”, or use the concept of time and how time is scientifically defined are two completely different issue!. Without diverting from the discussion point, this is similar to how people use the concept of weight. Common People use weight to know how heavy is an object, but in the physics world that is a mass! So here I want you to consider that for a moment.

 

Before I go much into the scientific explanations, let me assert the theologian aspects, you will agree time does not exist in hereafter! So it is only in this world that the concept of time is relevant. Again let’s park that thought at the moment.

 

If you ask yourself what is a second, or an hour? What determines what an hour should be? Or maybe you could ask, what exactly is the hour measuring? Is the hour measuring time itself? Is onether valid question! You asserted that what being measured here is TIME? And the hours/minutes/seconds are ways to measure time?

Saying that (LOZ) says, what is being measured here is an interval between two events; assume here that you say “Salaat asr is one hour away” here the hour describes when to start the salaat. So this interval explains the length between the two events, what it doesn’t explain is what is the interval is? What we are trying to define here is what is the HOUR!---- makes sense? Or have I lost you?.

 

Now here is where Caanos explanation becomes relevant, defining the interval, here is where the world of physics picks up an equation and defines the interval using the release of quantum energy. This raises couple of questions? Is time continuous or discrete intervals so small that we haven’t discovered yet, and if so then these discrete intervals are so small they almost become as if they are continuous. Hold that thought for a moment...park it somewhere in your mind, it will become useful later!

 

Another issue that comes to mind is, if the interval is defined, is it then Universal? Is there such thing as Universal Time? Clearly you would agree that time is not universal i.e. what Caano described as the quantum viewpoint, time is relative and dependant on altitude (gravity), speed and so on.

 

So far, we have established two things, time flows continuously and it is not universal...So time does exist but not as we know it...

 

If I touch upon the funky bit where time is a real dimension (the fourth dimension), here this concept agrees with the concept of preordained, that the future has been predetermined! It is only waiting for us to pass over! And that is why I like it!

 

Unfortunately, I do not think I have explained it well, but I am assuming in conjunction with Caano’s points, you would get a glimpse of the complexity of the definition of Time and when we talk about TIME it is not as straight forward as you implied yaa XIIN

 

As for Positive his cyclical concept of time doesn’t hold waters (or maybe I need to re read it)

 

Cheers

[ElPunto]

^I would read that if you could only break it up into proper paragraphs

[Legend of Zu]

^^^lol..That was too quick man, I havent even got the chance to edit it...hehehe..or reread the flow of reasoning!

Cheers

[ElPunto]

^Ok - that was interesting. That level of abstraction is something that is hard to grasp without a little familiarity with it first.

[Legend of Zu]

^^^ Yeah I did that for a reason, I am not able to summarise various scientific theories into one simply post for the SOL readers; my intention was more like to entice the interested reader to seek further info or create some interest at the least.

 

And moreover to highlight it is not as simple as we think!

 

Cheers

[Positive]

Hello Loz,

 

It is as you said the aim of this discussion is to entice interested reader to seek further info or create some interest at the least

 

In that spirit I would make following assertions which may support for the argument that time in its manifested aspect is cyclical in nature.

 

The earth rotates around its axis. It takes the earth what we call 24 hours to make one rotation around its axis. Then it repeats the cycle. That is how days and nights come about.And again we have mechanical watches which go in cycles that measure the one cyle of the earth around its axis.

 

The earth also makes revolution around the sun. It takes approximately 365 earth rotations in its axis or days as we popularly call (one year) to make one revolution (cycle) and it repeats again this movement. That is how the four seasons come about.

 

Our sun acoompanied by its planets revolve around the galactic centre of milk way galaxy. And the milky way galaxy revolves around what is called the local galaxies centre. Hences everything is repeating the same movement again, again and again. It is said that space is curved and so is time- meaning cyclical.

 

If time in its objective nature is not cyclical what is it then and how?!

 

Toosiye2

[stoit]

Very interesting read from you all Maansha ALLAH.

 

I believe that there in nothing called TIME. And however much people explain it as if it has a separate existance and is part of nature all they end up saying or explaining is CHANGE or how we measure change.

 

On the same token time travel is not possible in my opinion and there is no yesterday except in our minds or on records and there is no tommorrrow anywhere except as a possibility. I strongly think that all there is now and only now.

 

So my opinion again is that time is neither lineal nor cyclycl nor is there something called time anywhere to be experinced ie to cause or affect change in anything.

 

GOD BLESS

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

"There is in life only one moment and in eternity only one. It is so brief that it is represented by the fleeting of a luminous mote through the thin ray of sunlight--and it is visible but a fraction of a second. The moments that preceded it have been lived, are forgotten and are without value; the moments that have not been lived have no existence and will have no value except in the moment that each shall be lived. While you are asleep you are dead; and whether you stay dead an hour or a billion years the time to you is the same."

[stoit]

caano geel

 

 

Please read this only if you have alot of spare time for its a complete waste of time. All it is ,is my confused mind and i should do more reading and research and not bother people.

 

Your writings on time according to the different viewpoints is an interesting read .

 

I knew the Newtonian viewpoint and am still trying to undestand the viewpoint of Einsteins General Relativity but in all honesty i am a bit stuck here.

 

Maybe if you understand it you will be kind enough to help me out.

 

Well as much as i try i cant understand the speed of light as a constant or the only constant. According to my readings they say that light travels at the same speed regardless of direction of travel or even according to this vedeo on youtube regardless of how fast an object is travelling ? Now that is weird for how can light have a speed and still manage to pass pbjects at the same speed weather they are moving or not or what direction they are moving.(i understand that was from the special theory on which the general built on or something like that)

 

The second is how time and space is woven together to form a new substance called time/space. Some imagine this to be like a matress and that heavy or massive objects cause a dent on its surface and that ,that cuases things to fall to the heavy objects rather than being pulled by them, like was believed as in gravity.

 

If this new time/space is warped by massive objects ,things would not have been pulled into the objects, in my opinion. Cause on a three dimentional view there wont be dents on a surface but rather a streching of the time/space from within, since the massive objects can not be outside time/space but within it.

 

So either there is no time/space unit and we then go back to the former newtonian viewpoint and just use gravity and forever time and forever space or massive objects have really the ability to pull things and space/time is a substance (much like the ether) and is pulled causing it to warp and bend. Now i believe the ether has been discarded and no one thinks it to be in existance.

 

And i have a problem in time being incooperated into anything anyway as i said before time in my opinion does not exist.